Total beginner - first scope

[Dimitrisanagn]

Hi everyone!

 

First post, looking for some advice on my first telescope.

I have some "extremely" basic knowledge on astronomy and my little 6-year old has started showing great interest for stars, constellations and the likes and am thinking of getting us our first telescope.

 

Have read much about how dobsonian scopes are more stable and therefore provide a better experience for youngsters and novices, but would appreciate your opinion.

Would I be better off with a Heritage 130/150p or should I be looking for a refractor with Astrofi or Starsense app to make it easier for the kid? 

I know that this would be taking away from the joy of the process of finding and observing, but with a rather limited budget of max 200-250 pounds, I'd like to buy what would be the best value for money option for our case.

 

Thank you all so much in advance!

 

 

 

 

[mr_belowski]

finding stuff is fun and part of the magic, but having a mount that can track makes it much better for sharing - without it you get Saturn all nicely lined up and by the time the kid's settled at the scope and figured out which eye to use it's drifted out of view. A simple tracking mount takes away this urgency and makes it much easier to show things to others.

I bought a 90mm Mak-Cass on a Skywatcher Virtuoso tracking mount and my 9 year old *loved* it

Edited August 3, 2023 by mr_belowski

[Dimitrisanagn]

Very good point! Thanks!

I suppose from a budget perspective I might need to compromise with lower quality scope in favor of the tracking ability.

Even a 114 virtuoso is more expensive than the 130p.

Not sure how much of a difference a novice will see, especially in a light polluted area like Athens though...

Should I really be worried about the observation difference between 114 and 130?

[mr_belowski]

the aperture change from 114 to 130 won't make a huge difference but don't assume that aperture size is the only difference between a manufacturer's 130mm and 114mm offering

it's probably worth taking some time to read around the various guides here and elsewhere to get a feel for the many options. In a light polluted area you'll only really see solar system objects (moon & planets) so take this into consideration

[AstroMuni]

23 hours ago, Dimitrisanagn said:

I know that this would be taking away from the joy of the process of finding and observing, but with a rather limited budget of max 200-250 pounds, I'd like to buy what would be the best value for money option for our case.

Have you considered buying binoculars. A 50x10 will show you quite a lot and its a good start for a 6 year old in that they can hold it themselves. At that age they quickly change interests as well, so no point in splashing out unless you are keen to carry on with the hobby all by yourself

[AstroNebulee]

Hi

A good choice would be a heritage 130p. Though tracking would be a bonus. As when you've found the object by the time your child looks through the scope it may of moved a bit. Goto is great though sadly not in your price range. Maybe look on the used market for such a combination. As they do pop up. 

Or if you were willing stretch the budget ever so slightly (it pains me to say that as you have a budget, so forgive me) add the az gti mount to the scope or even at a later date so. 

You won't go wrong with the 130p though, it's well loved and some fantastic threads on it here. Heres one part of 3 and very enjoyable reads. 

 

Lee 

Edited August 4, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[bosun21]

18 hours ago, mr_belowski said:

In a light polluted area you'll only really see solar system objects (moon & planets) so take this into consideration

 I disagree. You will see the globular and open clusters, brighter planetary nebulae not to mention the multitude of double stars. While there's no substitute for darker skies there's a lot more to see other than solar system objects.

[Guest]

With that budget i would be thinking about binoculars and a tripod.  

[cajen2]

It depends whether you want to stick to your budget or push it.....certainly the Virtuoso 114p is a capable little scope with a proper parabolic mirror. The mount will give you tracking and you can upgrade it later to full go-to by getting a hand controller for it. And only £9 over budget....

Don't forget to have a little bit aside to upgrade the eyepieces - that'll make a huge difference to the views.

Edited August 4, 2023 by cajen2

[bosun21]

14 minutes ago, cajen2 said:

It depends whether you want to stick to your budget or push it.....certainly the Virtuoso 114p is a capable little scope with a proper parabolic mirror. The mount will give you tracking and you can upgrade it later to full go-to by getting a hand controller for it. And only £9 over budget....

Don't forget to have a little bit aside to upgrade the eyepieces - that'll make a huge difference to the views.

The Virtuoso will provide full go to on his phone/tablet with the Synscan pro app.

[cajen2]

Ah, ok. Cheers.

[Dimitrisanagn]

Thank you all very much for trying to help out.

Regarding binoculars, I might be wrong, but I'm not sure they will provide better vision in a light polluted city. Aren't they supposed to just magnify, instead of allowing more light? 

 

I saw some videos on YouTube with star tracking and it was a good 20 seconds before Saturn disappeared from the view of a 130p. Is this more less accurate?

If so, I think it is enough time to hand the scope over to my daughter for her to review and then track again.

[Mandy D]

@Dimitrisanagn If you think about it, I'm sure you'll see that binoculars gather more light than your unaided eyes. Assume 50 mm objectives and a 7 mm diameter fully dilated pupil. Square both, so we are comparing areas, 2500 and 49. Now do a simple division and you get about 50 times more light gathering from the binoculars than the unaided eye. Does that make sense?

[bosun21]

The time of transit through the eyepiece will depend on the magnification as well as the FOV (field of view) of the eyepiece used. In a general sense the 130P will definitely allow you to position Saturn at the edge of the eyepiece and then allow your daughter to watch it drift through the eyepiece. A slight nudge by yourself will reacquire the target and repeat the procedure.

[Dimitrisanagn]

9 minutes ago, Mandy D said:

@Dimitrisanagn If you think about it, I'm sure you'll see that binoculars gather more light than your unaided eyes. Assume 50 mm objectives and a 7 mm diameter fully dilated pupil. Square both, so we are comparing areas, 2500 and 49. Now do a simple division and you get about 50 times more light gathering from the binoculars than the unaided eye. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Thanks for clarifying!

I had a bit mixed up comparing them with a scope instead of our naked eye..

[Dimitrisanagn]

4 minutes ago, bosun21 said:

The time of transit through the eyepiece will depend on the magnification as well as the FOV (field of view) of the eyepiece used. In a general sense the 130P will definitely allow you to position Saturn at the edge of the eyepiece and then allow your daughter to watch it drift through the eyepiece. A slight nudge by yourself will reacquire the target and repeat the procedure.

Thank you. This would definitely be an acceptable action, even repeatable over the course of an observation.

And I suppose she'll start practicing as well.

[bosun21]

Just now, Dimitrisanagn said:

Thank you. This would definitely be an acceptable action, even repeatable over the course of an observation.

And I suppose she'll start practicing as well.

Exactly 👍. That's the best way for her to learn. Good luck.

[Girders]

5 hours ago, bosun21 said:

The time of transit through the eyepiece will depend on the magnification as well as the FOV (field of view) of the eyepiece used. In a general sense the 130P will definitely allow you to position Saturn at the edge of the eyepiece and then allow your daughter to watch it drift through the eyepiece. A slight nudge by yourself will reacquire the target and repeat the procedure.

I think this is true in theory but very optimistic in practice.  I started with my 6 year old daughter with a 114p Virtuoso and without the tracking set up it simply wasn't manageable to share.  At the magnification you'll want to be using for planets, those 20/30 seconds will go in a flash.  You getting it just in vision, getting out the way, moving him/her into place and getting them to look through the eyepiece.  Depending on the surface you are on you have to factor in some time for any vibrations to stop.  And once it's drifted out of view it's never quite simple to find it again.   And in cheaper eyepieces, the image deteriorates as you move from the centre.  Also, don't underestimate how tricky it is for small kids to look through an eyepiece properly.  You really need them to have time at it.   I honestly think a non tracking scope, intended for planetary viewing, without tracking is a non starter for most kids under 11/12.  

The 1st gen virtuosas (90 SCT or 114p Newtonian) will give small but acceptable views of the planets.   With a barlow and the supplied eyepieces you should see Saturn's rings (tiny) and a hint of banding on Jupiter on a good night.  

Good luck!

Edited August 4, 2023 by Girders

[bosun21]

14 minutes ago, Girders said:

I think this is true in theory but very optimistic in practice.  I started with my 6 year old daughter with a 114p Virtuoso and without the tracking set up it simply wasn't manageable to share.  At the magnification you'll want to be using for planets, those 20/30 seconds will go in a flash.  You getting it just in vision, getting out the way, moving him/her into place and getting them to look through the eyepiece.  Depending on the surface you are on you have to factor in some time for any vibrations to stop.  And once it's drifted out of view it's never quite simple to find it again.   And in cheaper eyepieces, the image deteriorates as you move from the centre.  Also, don't underestimate how tricky it is for small kids to look through an eyepiece properly.  You really need them to have time at it.   I honestly think a non tracking scope, intended for planetary viewing, without tracking is a non starter for most kids under 11/12.  

The 1st gen virtuosas (90 SCT or 114p Newtonian) will give small but acceptable views of the planets.   With a barlow and the supplied eyepieces you should see Saturn's rings (tiny) and a hint of banding on Jupiter on a good night.  

Good luck!

He doesn't have the budget for a tracking scope. Did you read the thread?

[cajen2]

1 hour ago, bosun21 said:

He doesn't have the budget for a tracking scope. Did you read the thread?

As I said, the 114p Virtuoso is right at the top of his budget (£259) and is a tracking mount.

[bosun21]

7 hours ago, cajen2 said:

As I said, the 114p Virtuoso is right at the top of his budget (£259) and is a tracking mount.

I wasn't replying to you!

[bosun21]

My apologies @cajen2. Total brain block 🙄.

Edited August 5, 2023 by bosun21

[wulfrun]

17 hours ago, bosun21 said:

The Virtuoso will provide full go to on his phone/tablet with the Synscan pro app.

Needs the Wi-Fi dongle to do it though, the 114p Virtuoso doesn't have go-to by default. Thought it was worth pointing that out.

[bosun21]

14 minutes ago, wulfrun said:

Needs the Wi-Fi dongle to do it though, the 114p Virtuoso doesn't have go-to by default. Thought it was worth pointing that out.

Yes that’s correct, I forgot to mention that it would require the WiFi dongle.

[Dimitrisanagn]

What do you guys think of something like the Astrofi 90?

I understand that it is at a completely different league to the ones discussed, but given our location and the targets that we could observe, would this be an acceptable compromise in favor of it's tracking system? 

 

Budget wise it is very attractive.