USB Cable length

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

I thought I would post this here.

Seems my plan of routing the USB to outside easy access is scuppered by the USB 3 cable length of 3 m to the access point, plus the 3 m cable to the powered hub on scope fails the demands of USB 3 length, before I drill another hole in my shed, and running the cables to other than my chosen point, would it be possible to run the first USB to a powered hub, then the next cable to the scopes powered hub, total length, pretty sure first cable is 5m, length of shed 10ft, up to bench is maybe 2ft, plus 5" and 8" leading outside, I have 2 other usb 3 cables 3m and 4m.

These question being, can I run a USB to a powered hub 5m away, then run a USB from that powered hub to the powered hub on the scope, and it works as though I just ran a USB 3 direct from comp to scopes hub.

Yea I know dumb question.

[PeterC65]

I would check whatever you're planning first, as whether it works will depend on the particular kit and cables used. I can tell you that my Uranus-C astro camera will not support a USB 3 connection to my brand new laptop over 5m and 2m USB 3 cables with a powered hub in between. The only way I can get USB 3 speeds from the camera is with a 2m cable between it and the laptop.

[rickwayne]

USB 3 is notoriously picky and tricky -- plenty of folks have trouble with much shorter-cabled setups. For example a lot of CEM70G users struggled early on before the community figured out that short, high-quality cables were the only way to reliably connect to that mount.

Sounds like a perfect application for a single-board computer at the scope, together with WiFi or Ethernet for remoting in to it. Basically what I do with my Pi when I want to park my [removed word] in my nice cozy recliner. For me it's a Pi 4 running StellarMate OS, but lots of folk use Intel NUC or similar Windows critters. Nice thing about INDI is you can either run the client app (KStars/Ekos) on the mini and remote in to its desktop with just about any device, or run just the INDI server and device drivers "headlessly" on the mini and run your client on your inside computer, connecting the two over the net. 

[M40]

Have a search for a startech USB extender you can get either 5 or 10M USB extenders. They are not cheap but I used the 5M usb2 version for some while with no challenges. Another thing to look for is USB over cat5. You can get very long lengths, I have been using one over about 15M with no challenges. All the best.

Meant to add, you need to be aware of when using hub extenders is that power the extender off last or the USB port in your device may fail because of the load.

Edited December 19, 2022 by M40
Add info

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

2 minutes ago, rickwayne said:

USB 3 is notoriously picky and tricky -- plenty of folks have trouble with much shorter-cabled setups. For example a lot of CEM70G users struggled early on before the community figured out that short, high-quality cables were the only way to reliably connect to that mount.

Sounds like a perfect application for a single-board computer at the scope, together with WiFi or Ethernet for remoting in to it. Basically what I do with my Pi when I want to park my [removed word] in my nice cozy recliner. For me it's a Pi 4 running StellarMate OS, but lots of folk use Intel NUC or similar Windows critters. Nice thing about INDI is you can either run the client app (KStars/Ekos) on the mini and remote in to its desktop with just about any device, or run just the INDI server and device drivers "headlessly" on the mini and run your client on your inside computer, connecting the two over the net. 

I do most of that, remotely from my bed, I run an Ethernet cable (cables are usually more reliably than wifi I find) to the shed it works perfectly on Linux or windows remotely.

Where my shed is my phone does not really get Wi-Fi well, and the repeater is patchy, hence wires. I don't have an issue running a shorter cable that will work, I just asked if a powered hub at the end of 5m cable would work.

Connecting stuff over the net isn't an option unless there is an easy way, ie close to a router

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

14 minutes ago, M40 said:

Have a search for a startech USB extender you can get either 5 or 10M USB extenders. They are not cheap but I used the 5M usb2 version for some while with no challenges. Another thing to look for is USB over cat5. You can get very long lengths, I have been using one over about 15M with no challenges. All the best.

Meant to add, you need to be aware of when using hub extenders is that power the extender off last or the USB port in your device may fail because of the load.

If I use USB 2 in place of the USB things worked (and these were patched together cables) , well it was only one test period.

So how do you do your CAT5 ect.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Nicola Hannah Butterfield

[Budgie1]

I used to use a 15m USB3 active extension cable from my laptop to a powered hub on the mount. The cable comes with a 240v power supply but having the powered USB hub at one end and the laptop at the other meant I didn't need the PSU for the cable. It would give fast USB3 speeds over the 15m length with no drop-outs. 

I later swapped the USB hub for Pegasus Pocket Power Box Advance and used the same 15m extension without any issues.

[sinbad40]

I have a powered hub at my scope to power the dew heaters, I use a Mutecpower 10m Active USB3 cable, plugs into the hub and the main camera at one end (2^nd camera, focuser etc pluged into main camera) and runs into the laptop in the house.  No real issues at all.  It’s used to control everything.  Only issue I did have with it was the thickness of the cable, so I plug the data end at the scope into a small extender strapped to the leg on the tripod that is more flexible and around 1.5m in length.

[M40]

10 hours ago, Nicola Hannah Butterfield said:

So how do you do your CAT5 ect.

You have two usb devices, one plugs into your laptop and the other end is a powered USB hub. The two are then linked by a cat5e cable. Max 45M on my one.

Dead easy, no software involved, it just works......but...... all USB power is common across all devices.

This means using the powered hub, power for all connected devices is supplied from that. If you switch off your powered hub first, power will come from the only source, your laptop port which has now likely died. You can get additional devices which stop that and your laptop port may be a high power port, but it's far simpler to just turn the hub off last. Hope it helps.

[david_taurus83]

I don't think USB3 cables either side of a hub will work well. As mentioned, they are contrary things and your devices may well spit their dummies out. 2 options I know to work well are CAT5 ethernet to USB2 extension which works very well up to 15m (Startech claim up to 50m but I've never needed that long). The downside here is you are limited to USB2 speeds so may not be ideal if you do planetary or solar imaging. The other is a good quality USB3 extender. I recently bought a Lindy 15m active USB3 repeater. Works great from my mount to the shed, no issues or connectivity problems. I had a quick look at the sun a couple of weeks ago with my ASI533MM and I was getting around 35fps whereas before with the Startech USB2 setup I was only getting 12/15fps.

Not cheap at just over £100 now on Amazon but you get what you pay for. They can also be piggybacked if you needed more reach.

https://www.lindy.co.uk/usb-c4/15m-usb-3-0-active-extension-pro-p10396

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

@m40 & @david_taurus83, cheaper option, just move the weather prove box, to the front of the shed and run the USB from there, it's basically how I ran it before but through the window, everything worked well, the eqmod usb, the canon camera, the ASI120mc and focuser, the only thing on it that is USB 3 is obviously the ASI 120 MC, and depending on settings and resolution, I can achieve up to 65-70fps.

@m40, the only laptop I have in the system is the one I keep an eye on stuff in bed, via Ethernet. The computer in the shed is a desktop, remotely controlled from either my bedroom computer or the cr**** laptop, which, whilst more modern than the shed computer, wouldn't be up to the task, however running a copy of Linux it's OK to keep an eye on things.

If memory serves me right, Cat5 is 100Mbs which is very slow, even USB 2 is quicker, if I run a USB 2 from the end of the 5m USB 3, it seemed to work, but it was late, and I was tired, so not everything might have. I do know if I ran the USB 3 from the comp to the USB 3 12v powered hub, it worked as it always has, bar other glitches.

Thanks for the input.

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

1 hour ago, M40 said:

The two are then linked by a cat5e cable.

 

Do you have any idea of data speeds.

[SteveNickolls]

I give a +1 to M40's use of USB over Ethernet. I employ a StarTech USB over Ethernet set up which has every thing controlled from a laptop in the living room via a USB  cable to the inside StarTech unit which connects to a 25m length of Cat 6 Ethernet cable to near the rig. At the rig end there's a StarTech hub with x4 USB ports which link to the mount, main camera, guide camera and Pegasus Powerbox Micro unit. The 4x devices use USB cables to share the 480mbps USB 2.0 bandwidth of the system without hiccup. The Cat 6e Ethernet is rated at 1Gbps but drops to USB transfer rates. If you were doung planetary or lunar imaging or had a big main camera sensor this approach using lower bandwidths wouldn't work for you. My set up with a ASI533MM-Pro, ASI120MM-Mini guide camera, GEM28 mount utilising ASCOM/Stellarium and the Pegasus unit controlling power to mount, main camera and dew heaters works very well together.

Hope you can get sorted with a solution that works for your set up.

Cheers,

Steve

Edited December 20, 2022 by SteveNickolls

[Priesters]

Hi,

if you decide to go down the USB over Ethernet route I still have this gear for sale @ £50.  If it’s any use to you, I’d happily throw in the 15m Cat 6 cable for outdoor.

Cheers

Andrew

StarTech 4 Port USB 2.0 Extender over Cat 5 (40m) or Cat 6 (50m) - Price Drop!

 

 

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

Bit messy but a screen grab of the remote desktop.

So what I have a short USB2 directly behind the comp to outside and a weatherproof box, then a 4m USB 3 to the short USB hub cable. Ideally I am looking at a short USB 3 to the external socket and either as is or change the cable to the hub 4.5m USB D cable, but fitting that to the is more fiddly than to the extension.

This isn't as neat as I would have liked, but it works, it just means the power for the system, hub, mount, Canon and USB dew heaters, comes from one part of the shed, and the USB from another part.

Thanks for all the input,

 

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

Well it is working with, one 3m USB 3 and one 4m USB 3, to the short USB 3 cable to hub. It remains to be seen if there are any issues, what I am really struggling to understand with is 1 m i.e. a 5m and a 3m caused issues. Yet, the 3m and 4m seem to work.

[Nicola Hannah Butterfield]

Sort of failed again, odd APT can't record image. I know cable length.

[windjammer]

Have you had a look at the Lindy active USB3 cables and hubs ?  Expensive but work well - and capable of serious distance

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LINDY-10m-Active-Extension-Port/dp/B00DYWRRES/ref=sr_1_2?crid=16RZPMSS34JAO&keywords=usb3+extension+lindy+hub&qid=1672879838&sprefix=usb3+extension+lindy+hub%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-2