Highly portable EEA device

[Astrowl]

Hi guys, I come back with some feedbacks about the Astrowl Box.

First the official website is now opened : www.astrowlbox.com and ready to give you informations.

The full documentation is available online and will give a full view of Astrowl Box functionalities.

Last release of internal software brings new great features :
- Lots of parameters are now managed automatically by the internal software, so Contrast, Brightness, Saturation, RGB colors are not anymore manually set. You just need to set Gain and Exposure if you switch to expert mode.
- From stack view, the software will continue to automaticaly align and stack frames, you can on your hand decide to apply some filters like sharpen, blur and more sophisticated filters like Wiener Deconvolution or Richardson Lucy Deconvolution.

If you are interested to get ones or want some more informations don't hesitat to contact me.

[jjohnson3803]

I just stumbled across this thread and the product looks quite interesting.  I was considering a Revolution 2 imager since I'd prefer to do EAA without needing to drag out a laptop or tablet, but the number of cables and reportedly obtuse UI really made me hesitate.  This looks (potentially) like a good solution.

 

 

[Stephenstargazer]

Suggest you check the Astrowl website and read the manual. That will give you a good overiew.

[Astrowl]

Hi guys, the new release of the astrowl box internal software increase a lot sensitivity. Following are some pictures done with a 130mm apo refractor with total exposure around 2 mn (M13, M17, Dumbell and M16)

Edited August 12, 2023 by Astrowl

[Astrowl]

It's been a while since I last kept you informed of the latest developments in AstrowlBox.

I worked quite a bit on the planetary shooting part by integrating a frame selection system to keep only the best ones. I was able to test the system this evening, but unfortunately these f... clouds came to interrupt the transfer. I am still posting an image of Jupiter which uses contrast enhancement and a Richardson Lucy deconvolution (these filters are part of the filters that you can activate on the fly on the AstrowlBox). This is 170 stacks. I would have liked to push further, but once again the clouds came to spoil the party.

I also upgraded the box to integrate an ST4 auto-guidance port which allows the AstrowlBox to be directly connected to a mount via the ST4 port and send correction pulses. I was planning on testing this tonight, but that will have to wait 😁. When it is ready, it will keep the targeted object indefinitely on the AstrowlBox sensor and therefore stack without time limit.

[Astrowl]

Hi everyone,

A quick update about the Astrowl Box, a new feature has been added with the last release of the internal software to easily make timelapse videos.

Timelapse videos is a functionality that is well known by solar observers to create an animated sequence of fixed pictures to see evolution of solar flares for example. You can also use this features to create a video of any dynamic astronomy scene like planets and satellites.
 
Following is a screenshot of the availble settings : 
- Nb Stack : is the number of pictures stacked to build any individual image that will be added to the video,
- Nb Pictures : The number of individual pictures that will be added to the video,
- Snap Interval (sec) : The number of seconds for the process to pause before taking a new image  
- Video Interval (sec) : The number of seconds to display any individual images in the video.
- Videoname : The file name of the video that will be created. It is mp4 format.

[Richard N]

I like the idea of this device, however the price is similar to a SeeStar S50 or DwarfLab. Does it do something amazing that I’m missing?

 

[Geoff Lister]

On 12/03/2024 at 07:24, Richard N said:

I like the idea of this device, however the price is similar to a SeeStar S50 or DwarfLab. Does it do something amazing that I’m missing?

 

This is my concern too. I have both the Seestar S50 and Dwarf II. These have 50mm and 24mm objective lenses, whereas the Astrowl Box can be used with any GoTo/tracking mount, and thus larger OTAs. However, it is unlikely to provide the integrated operation, rig portability, and ease of use, of the S50 and Dwarf II.

I wish the Astrowl Box team well, but I fear that their product will be eclipsed by the S50 and Dwarf II.

Geoff

[Elp]

It was an interesting product and I admire the enthusiasm to bring new things to the table, but a few months later now I've seen the price and it's competing with other products in the market (eg rpi + uncooled astro camera) for less or similar and they'll have more functionality having many users around the world using such configurations.

As mentioned the now cheaper smart scopes have changed the game entirely at their respective price points.

if it were more competitive price wise which other manufacturers can achieve through economies of scale via volume manufacturing then maybe it'll have its own market share as a "plug and play" device which I believe is one of its USPs.

Edited March 15 by Elp

[Richard N]

26 minutes ago, Elp said:

It was an interesting product and I admire the enthusiasm to bring new things to the table, but a few months later now I've seen the price and it's competing with other products in the market (eg rpi + uncooled astro camera) for less or similar and they'll have more functionality having many users around the world using such configurations.

As mentioned the now cheaper smart scopes have changed the game entirely at their respective price points.

if it were more competitive price wise which other manufacturers can achieve through economies of scale via volume manufacturing then maybe it'll have its own market share as a "plug and play" device which I believe is one of its USPs.

I would think it would have to be under £200 to have much of a market. That would require volume production and looking at the website it looks more like a homemade product. Great idea but probably missed the boat. 

[PeterC65]

I think there is a place for technology like the Astrowl as a simple way to convert a standard visual setup to do EAA. I'm not convinced that the current incarnation is the way to go though. I would have thought a WiFi enabled camera and a tablet app would be a better solution. Building displays in to consumer electronics is rarely done these days because tablets and smart phones are so ubiquitous and the cost and complexity of doing so is so high.

 

 

[Stephenstargazer]

43 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

I would have thought a WiFi enabled camera and a tablet app would be a better solution.

You may be missing the point that the Astrowl is intended to be a smart complete EEA camera/eyepiece, for ANY telescope hence the screen, and is controlled by ANY (old or new) device with wifi - and you can infact view live on that screen too. The Seestar, Asiair, Astro Devices, Rowan etc all use the RPi / clone  / web interface solution tool because it saves having to make and test software to be compatible with a mulitplicity of devices.  For instance I could use any of my Windows laptop, my Android 7" tablet, or partners i-phone at will, and possibly even at the same time (not tried that!).

By making a box that only requires an external USB battery pack or supply (common as muck) it makes for a neat package that will expose and stack images, selected post post process, save the results to download later.

Others query the cost, but no mass manufacturer is offering one. If you want to save money you could make something similar from scratch and write the software? The closest equivalent is probably a ZWO camera + Asiair, though that has multiple functions beyond EEA, and it has to be said, more complicated controls for those that want them.

Back to the original plot - the Seestar does way more but with rather significant optical limitations and no visual options. 🙂

PS I understand (form S&T review) a Seestar can only work with a smartphone (not a nice big tablet) because it uses both the wifi connection and the internet over cellular. So maybe not so good in some dark places?

[Elp]

I think you'll find an rpi with astroberry and cheap used astro camera you can put together for less than half the price (I'd also suspect the internals use an rpi anyway which is modular and has many other plug and play accessories for it including cameras and low and behold LCD screens). Astroberry OS is free (the software and drivers have been available for years), and has fully integrated software within, stellarium, planetary capture, live stacking etc equivalent to the PC softwares, you can also if you want use it to control a goto mount and have your setup fully automated if you want, no need to modify anything it works out the box. If you didn't want to use the device you can repurpose the rpi easily to do other computing tasks. And yes you can use this also with any telescope, minimal wires and can power the rpi with a usb power bank.

[Elp]

As a DIY project I applaud the attempt. But as a commercial project there are far more capable solutions on the market with teams of people at the helm at much more competitive prices. As mentioned at a better price it could have a niche market of its own.

[Astrowl]

6 hours ago, Elp said:

no need to modify anything it works out the box.

Really, have you ever tried it by yourself ? Setting up this solution is painful, full of disapointment and far beyond common competencies. 

This is a really beautiful cooperative project, but who care about difficulty and hours you will spend to set it up ? And if you ask for help, the answer will probably that you need to invest yourself and need some technical skills.

Following is the testimony of an amart regarding Astroberry which says long about this solution

"I thought about Astroberry at one point.  I have a a computer science degree (admittedly from 1975) but I'm not afraid of technology.  One of the most painful decisions I ever made was to lease a support-free Virtual Private Server for a website I'd built, despite the fact that I had zero unix experience.  I managed it (barely) but it only worked because I could find hundreds of response to any Google query I formed for something I needed to configure on Apache or the PHP shell, or whatever.  It was painful.  You won't have that luxury with Astroberry... so echoing some other folks, I suggest staying away from Linux administration unless you have a background in it."

Astroberry does not offer live stacking by its own, you will need external software and computer also. That's not my idea of ultra portable EEA.

I am not looking to compete with smart scope like Vaonis or Seestar (far from my skills and means). They are absolutely incredible products and I had one eVscope in the past (sold it few years ago) and recently one Seestar. I sold the Seestar after just 4 months (and use it twice). This is not my cup of tea. You are passively making astronomy, no more contact with the sky, just push a button and look at your smartphone, really boring... But if I consider how many Seestars were sold, it is a commercial success.

Regarding price of Astrow Box, well I am not living in China and can't be as competitive and not willing to. 

What do you think about price difference between Vespera and Seestar ?

Seestar is absolutely not suited for planetary (like all smart scopes as far as I know)I think regarding attached image catch with the Astrowl box and a Mewlon 210, result is interesting and not so ridiculous for EEA (for sure not perfect and still hardly working to improve it)

Astrowl box is more for observer that want to mix visual and EEA easily and keep their astronomy items. Using a flip mirror to install both an eyepiece and the Astrowl box is a perfect solution to switch between this two kind of views.

Edited March 15 by Astrowl

[PeterC65]

6 hours ago, Stephenstargazer said:

PS I understand (form S&T review) a Seestar can only work with a smartphone (not a nice big tablet) because it uses both the wifi connection and the internet over cellular. So maybe not so good in some dark places?

The S50 can be used with a tablet (I've seen it done). It may well need an internet connection but a tablet can provide that, even via the cellular network.

6 hours ago, Stephenstargazer said:

You may be missing the point that the Astrowl is intended to be a smart complete EEA camera/eyepiece, for ANY telescope hence the screen, and is controlled by ANY (old or new) device with wifi - and you can infact view live on that screen too.

Having set up EAA from the separate components I understand how complicated it can be. I've deliberately kept my setup simple though and I don't use a computer on the mount, either an ASIair or RPi.

I think there is a gap in the market that could be addresses by a product like the Astrowl. That gap is between a component based solution and the S50. The component based solution is complicated to setup and expensive, but it allows flexibility of kit (particularly the scope) and reuse of existing kit. The S50 is easy to setup and relatively inexpensive, but you are stuck with a particular scope with no possibility of upgrading, and any astronomy kit you might already have cannot be used. Something in between would be a simple way to attach a camera to existing kit to do EAA.

The Astrowl does that but uses a built in display which greatly complicates the design. I think a better solution would be to use a tablet to provide the display and UI and write a really good and easy to use app to connect to and control the camera. A WiFi enabled camera would remove the need for the cable, and would allow the camera and display to be located in different places which is one of the big pluses of doing EAA.

 

[Astrowl]

37 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

The Astrowl does that but uses a built in display which greatly complicates the design. I think a better solution would be to use a tablet to provide the display and UI and write a really good and easy to use app to connect to and control the camera. A WiFi enabled camera would remove the need for the cable, and would allow the camera and display to be located in different places which is one of the big pluses of doing EAA.

As explain by @Stephenstargazer that exactly the way the Astrowl box works. You connect to the box through wifi and use the user interface from your connected device. The pictures catch by Astrowl box are displayed on the onboard screen and can also be displayed on your connected device (smartphone, computer,  whatever run a web browser).

I decided to add this onboard screen because it was closer to an eyepiece than only looking to your smartphone screen. But you can also  display the image on a computer connected to the Astrowl box and with a video projector share it with a large audience.

Edited March 15 by Astrowl

[Elp]

2 hours ago, Astrowl said:

Really, have you ever tried it by yourself ? Setting up this solution is painful, full of disapointment and far beyond common competencies. 

Yes, it was the first computer controller I implemented, together with my first goto mount, first guidescope and autoguiding. I've had it for five years. I do not have a computer science degree, nor am I familiar with Linux, the only issue with getting it going was knowing to have an equipment profile set so when you enable it, all the equipment drivers start and the connected equipment works. My first test for planetary imaging worked first time. Astroberry as well as its other RPI competitor Stellarmate have been around for years. I however do not like controlling it via a web browser and it needs a tablet sized screen which you have managed to improve upon with the built in screen and simpler user interface. Stellarmate does have a usable mobile app.

There is an EAA program on Astroberry by default, OALive you can also install CCDCiel. For planetary imaging Firecapture and OACapture come installed by default too.

Due to wanting a better controlling interface via a mobile phone screen I changed to the ZWO asiair ecosystem, a setup I still use and is by far the simplest solution I've used, certainly plug and play and it does pretty much everything you need including live real time stacking. There are issues however with their latest software updates so it's not infallible, but using it transformed my AP use.

As mentioned I think what you've done is great, but people also need to know other options available to them especially at similar price points as the question was raised about what makes this product unique, something any potential purchaser will ask themselves when looking to purchase a solution to their needs.

[PeterC65]

3 hours ago, Astrowl said:

As explain by @Stephenstargazer that exactly the way the Astrowl box works. You connect to the box through wifi and use the user interface from your connected device. The pictures catch by Astrowl box are displayed on the onboard screen and can also be displayed on your connected device (smartphone, computer,  whatever run a web browser).

I decided to add this onboard screen because it was closer to an eyepiece than only looking to your smartphone screen. But you can also  display the image on a computer connected to the Astrowl box and with a video projector share it with a large audience.

OK. Then I think the additional cost and effort of the built in screen is unnecessary, and I think the user experience would be better with a smartphone or tablet than what you could achieve with a built in screen. I think a WiFi connected astro camera and a well written app would be much cheaper and easier to implement and actually better functionally.

Edited March 15 by PeterC65

[Astrowl]

2 hours ago, Elp said:

Due to wanting a better controlling interface via a mobile phone screen I changed to the ZWO asiair ecosystem

At the beginning I start this project to fullfill my own requirements, in short a small, portable, fully autonomous system with simple and essential EEA functionalities (live, stacking, timelapse now, popular filters : stretch, deconvolution, contrast enhance, wavelet sharpen, frame quality filter). No need a separate camera, install another box to control the camera, lot of  wires to plug everything,... I know that Asiair is really popular for very good reasons. It is cheap, really powerful if you learn it, but installing everything just bother me, switching to visual during the same night is boring...

The Astrowl box is in your pocket, just install it in the eyepiece holder plug it to a power supply and enjoy. You want to come back to eyepiece, no problem remove the Astrowl box and you can do it in less than 5 seconds. The user interface is quite simple and of course far less complete than Asiair or Seestar application. The reason is because I cannot develop applications for Android and IOS and want portability (so html pages are the fastest and easiest way).

I found all existing solutions not satisfying and too heavy to set up (again for me and apparently some other users that get the Astrowl box).

I am not looking for big commercial success (at present I won't be able to manage it, if it even ever occurs). I want to keep small production, stay in touch with my users and add functionalities they ask me (like recently timelapse, request by a solar observer). Continue to learn and improve the software, the hardware by recently adding a ST4 guiding port, for example, refactoring the box are my pleasure.  

And the reason why the Astrowl box could live longer than any other products (like the Dwarf scope that will diseppear in few months, maybe Unistellar and Vaonis will also have some issued to fight against chinese unfair business) it is because I don't need it to live, pay my home, my holidays. Except if a big company like ZWO produces a similar product, I will probably buy it immediatly and stop the Astrowl Box. But, I think it will never happen.

Maybe one day I will decide to put everything in public domain and let astronomy community use it (or not) like it wants. But not yet 🙂 !  

Edited March 15 by Astrowl

[Stephenstargazer]

On 15/03/2024 at 22:24, PeterC65 said:

the additional cost and effort of the built in screen

Actually Peter the screen is a standard plugin that fits  the RPi. Having controls or the view on a 2nd screen is user friendly in practice.

I am glad Arnaud @Astrowl has explained his personal aims with the project. He has been prepared to share this with his users and is always making improvements. A look at the exemplary manual.will show how neat and easy the controls are - great for those like me who are not tech savvy. 

As for mixing with visual I can put an Astrowl Box on a turret with a couple of eyepieces. It is so  small and light. And yes I, (or we)  could go in to the warm to watch remorely, maybe for a transient event. (Eventually I may even need to !)

I dont think there is a comparable single device yet, but who knows..

On 15/03/2024 at 23:07, Astrowl said:

Except if a big company like ZWO produces a similar product, I will probably buy it immediatly and stop the Astrowl Box. But, I think it will never happen.

I know it is selfish, but I sort of hope that does not happen for some time, mon ami  🙂

Edited March 17 by Stephenstargazer

[Bivanus]

Hello Arnaud , any news regarding the ST4 guiding port implementation ? I think you were saying something about testing it at one point and the clouds not cooperating 😅

Also , curiosity question: why the IMX462 ? Was it specification only driven or also availability ? 

[Astrowl]

Hi @Bivanus, the ST4 is still to be tested. Unfortunately this feature can only be tested outside and I have no (even one) correct night during my available time for 4 months... Never seen that before!

So software is ready, hardware is ready (new astrowl boxes are sold with the ST4 port installed) but not tested...

Regarding the IMX462 sensor. It is really sensitive on nearly all light wavelengths, not too big and not too expensive. That's why it is the same sensor in Seestar 50 and Vespera Vaonis.

But I am also looking for new sensors and at present working on running the Astrowl box on Raspberry pi 5 (quite faster).

[Bivanus]

@Astrowlhang in there ! I haven't seen a clear night since mid- January , and the days are nothing to talk about neither 

I was asking about other sensors since I use F/7 scopes and saw a trend for pixel size going down into 2 μm and below - that would alow easy imaging using a bit longer native focal ratios like mine  

On the other hand , while not a programmer , I've interacted enough with programable electronic devices to be aware that creating drivers and making complex system  talk & act toghether is far from being a trivial endeavour.

[Jeff-Colorado]

I like the simplicity and see the merit of the built in 4" display. It is intriguing to think of viewing a faint fuzzy DSO in my eyepiece and then plugging in this EAA EP and in a short span of time seeing the same DSO in more detail and in color.