What laptop requirements?

[Starslayer]

Hi.  If I want to have a dabble with some basic imaging of moon and planets what is the best way for me to run the likes of Sharpcap, Pipp and Registax and t use an entry level camera the likes of sv bony sv105 / 205. ?  I have imac , ipads etc but no laptops / macbook and nothing on Windows.  Assuming ( rightly? ) that my best option is to get a laptop I can dedicate to this and without breaking the bank what are the minimum requirements of that laptop that I need to look out for / consider? Am I best going for a windows based thing? I have a source for second hand laptops but need the specs before approaching.  Thank you.  

[malc-c]

Two basic choices when using a laptop.  

* Windows, ASCOM, EQMOD / GSSeerver, planetarium software such as CDC, Sharpcap, and a CCD camera

* Linux, INDI, KSTARS or CDC, Ekos, Sharpcap, and a CCD camera

As for hardware, you don't need anything exceptionally powerful.  I'm running my observatory on an old  2 core Pentium system that is circa 10 years old technology.  I have even managed to run an imaging session on an old Eee900 netbook back in the day when these were popular (circa 2011), all be it I had to use an external drive to save images to.  Any entry laptop in todays market should be very capable of running the software and controlling the hardware. 

[JonCarleton]

I started out with the SVBONY cameras and still use them for guide cameras.  Sometimes I use the SV305 for planetary work.  The SV305 is a good camera to have around.  The SV205 is also pretty good, but the SV105 is basically just a webcam in an astro box.  It is a pretty good little webcam, but very limited.  Under Linux, you have to use the generic V4L (Video for Linux) driver, which although stable, has limitations.  I've never used the SV105 on a Windows platform, but expect the same with an ASCOM driver.

You might give a look at AstroDMx_Capture instead of Sharpcap (Linux or Windows).  They did a lot of work on native drivers for the SV305 when it first came out. 

Any old laptop will do for basic imaging and scope control.  However, once you get a wad of images and need to process them, you will find that is where the heavy lifting starts.  Something with 8G or more ram and a separate graphics processor (preferably NVIDIA) is a good start.  You -can- stack and process with a less, but you will become one with the concept of  "infinate slowness."  Ideally, a slow, older laptop with a decent display (I use a raspberry pi, actually) for the imaging bit and a real kicker desktop for stacking and processing.

[Starslayer]

48 minutes ago, JonCarleton said:

I started out with the SVBONY cameras and still use them for guide cameras.  Sometimes I use the SV305 for planetary work.  The SV305 is a good camera to have around.  The SV205 is also pretty good, but the SV105 is basically just a webcam in an astro box.  It is a pretty good little webcam, but very limited.  Under Linux, you have to use the generic V4L (Video for Linux) driver, which although stable, has limitations.  I've never used the SV105 on a Windows platform, but expect the same with an ASCOM driver.

You might give a look at AstroDMx_Capture instead of Sharpcap (Linux or Windows).  They did a lot of work on native drivers for the SV305 when it first came out. 

Any old laptop will do for basic imaging and scope control.  However, once you get a wad of images and need to process them, you will find that is where the heavy lifting starts.  Something with 8G or more ram and a separate graphics processor (preferably NVIDIA) is a good start.  You -can- stack and process with a less, but you will become one with the concept of  "infinate slowness."  Ideally, a slow, older laptop with a decent display (I use a raspberry pi, actually) for the imaging bit and a real kicker desktop for stacking and processing.

Interesting thank you.  What this has flagged for me is that I could use something pretty basic for taking the original image avi file etc .. I could then transfer the files to my imac running 24gig of ram perhaps?  

Edit - ah maybe not. I see some of these thing will not run on ios.

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Starslayer

[Starslayer]

Perhaps I can rephrase this.  Ideally I would like to process what I capture on my imac.  Is this possible / advisable?  Am I better off getting a windows laptop?  If I can use the mac then the spec of the capturing laptop can be greatly reduced can it not? otherwise the lap top will preferably need to be of a higher spec as described above by those kind enough to advise.  Well I know what I mean. 😉 I am researching bootcamp to run windows on imac. Wondering if this will involve a windows purchase. 

 

Update.  have researched bootcamp and it seems like I can run windows 10 on my iMac for free. SO,  am I / can I be, in a position whereby I just need basic capturing capability which I can then do all the intensive stuff afterwards once transferred to the mac?  I am not a computer genius by any means but I do try and teach myself and sort issues through google / youtube.  

Edited September 13, 2021 by Starslayer

[The Lazy Astronomer]

The only thing I would say, is while you can use a lower spec laptop for capture, it is wise to ensure it uses an SSD if you're interested in planetary and lunar imaging.

It made a huge difference to me - the best framerate l could get with my old laptop's HDD was ~25fps, with the SSD I now use, I can easily get 200+fps.

[powerlord]

i use macs. I process on macs. startools and affinity photo.

I stack using DSS - using vmware to run windows.

if you want a windows laptop for capture - look on ebay for a cheap refurbished lenova. an i5 with ssd and usb 3.0 is more than enough to max out capture speeds and can be got cheap. I got a Lenovo X230 12.5" Laptop Core i5 3rd Gen @2.50GHz 4GB RAM 120GB for 150 quid with a windows 10 pro licence for example.

 

[malc-c]

2 hours ago, The Lazy Astronomer said:

The only thing I would say, is while you can use a lower spec laptop for capture, it is wise to ensure it uses an SSD if you're interested in planetary and lunar imaging.

It made a huge difference to me - the best framerate l could get with my old laptop's HDD was ~25fps, with the SSD I now use, I can easily get 200+fps.

These days SSDs are more commonly fitted to PCs, at least for the OS drive, and yes they do make a difference.  The PC I'm currently using on a daily basis has a Samsung 960 Nvme drive and that is another leap in speed over SATA SSDs.  

I agree with the comment that whilst its possible to run an imaging rig on old technology, a PC with higher spec and performance will make things easier.  If you have a camera that uses USB3 then it's no point in getting an older second hand machine that has no USB 3 sockets.  It will still work over USB2, but you're not going to get the maximum performance.  

[The Lazy Astronomer]

2 hours ago, malc-c said:

a PC with higher spec and performance will make things easier.  If you have a camera that uses USB3 then it's no point in getting an older second hand machine that has no USB 3 sockets.  It will still work over USB2, but you're not going to get the maximum performance.  

Agree completely - I recently replaced  my circa 10 year old desktop to beef it up for image processing and was looking to use some of the old components for a dedicated remote scope side PC, but a lack of any usb3 ports meant I'd be sacrificing performance.

In the end I discovered the old SSD fit in hard drive slot of the old laptop I had been using (which did have a usb3 port) and jobs a good'un 👍

[malc-c]

I've not been in a position to update the imaging equipment due to one thing or another, so using the old hardware (2 core 2 thread Pentium E5700 @3Ghz, 8GB DDR3 memory, 500GB system drive and a 2TB imaging drive) still handles the QHY5 and Canon D400, both of which used USB 2.0. 

My main PC is a 1st gen Ryzen 1500x (4 core 8 threads), 16GB Vengeance DDR4 ram, 256GB Samsung Pro960 Nvem system drive, and a couple of 3TB data drives, which is mainly used for Video editing and PCB design / CAD and needless to say it makes my observatory PC looks like an old 286 from the early 90's !!

The thing is that these days they seem to have reached a point where the gap between four or even eight year old technology  hardly makes much of a difference to low demanding applications such as those used for imaging.  Processors have been running at 3Ghz in that time, but RAM timings have improved a fair bit, and the Nvme  format that access the PCI bus direct has been a vast improvement.  Granted with the bus speed mazing out between 3 and 4 Ghz, the core and thread count has increased and now the "average" has gone up to 8 core 8 threads, but unless the applications have been written to take advantage of this then you won't really notice much difference.  In fact you may find that some of the software we use is still legacy and will hammer just one or possibly two cores at most.....

[JonCarleton]

+1 for 3.0 USB ports.  

These can also be a solution for slow mechanical harddrives.  Some of the new external SSD 3.0 USB drives can keep up pretty well with any image write load, even with a fairly slow imaging computer.  Also, running a camera on a 2.0 USB port is just asking for trouble....unless, perhaps it is just a guide scope with a mono camera.

[rickwayne]

You  can definitely run sufficiently-capable software for processing on your iMac. PixInsight, Astro Pixel Processor, SiRiL, ASTAP...really no need for Windows. Honest. Deep Sky Stacker is the single Windows-only program I've ever wanted to run and I found (better) replacements easily. People might say that there are more choices for Windows software but what do you care about the dozen programs that you're not running? 

As for acquisition, well. There's a certain tendency to advocate one's own choices, eh? Still, what I chose works very well, so here goes:

• Buy a Raspberry Pi. I started with a 3B, but a 4 is miles better. $65.
• Buy StellarMate OS to install on it -- a turnkey Linux operating system image with drivers and acquisition software pre-installed. $50.
• Use the Pi's built-in WiFi to control it via the StellarMate app on your phone or iPad, or a VNC app on your iPad, or even from your iMac.

Or, if you are working someplace with mains power, you can plug a display, keyboard, and mouse into the Pi and use it like a desktop computer.

The control and acquisition software that comes with StellarMate can run a camera or a complete observatory. There are videos on everything, and  the company (OK, the guy) is excellent with support. Don't let "Linux" scare you -- it works very similarly to Mac OS and Windows. (If you're willing to pay a bit more for an even more turnkey experience, they'll sell you the Pi, with a case, with everything preinstalled for $229.)

When I image from home I'll remote into the Pi from my MacBook; in the field, I use that MacBook until its battery gives out, then take out the iPad and use that for the rest of  the night.

The biggest advantage to setting up this way is robustness -- the Pi is doing nothing but running the astronomy software, and you can mount it right on your rig so there's never a problem with pulling a USB cable out inadvertently and crashing a session. Next  to that, for me, is its miserly power draw. If you want to work in the field, the Pi will run all night off the same battery that powers your mount.

I personally really like having the device I'm typing on NOT connected directly to the scope, since I'm clumsy, especially in the dark when I'm short of sleep.

[Dazzyt66]

+1 for the RPI suggestion

I was in same situation as you last year - only had a Macbook (which I didn't want to use outside) and iPad.

The RPI is really easy to set up. I use it with (free but worthy of donation) Astroberry (Kstars and Ekos) and did all the processing on my Macbook using Siril and Gimp. I'm not sure about planetary captures because I haven't done any, but it works brilliantly for me. I now have a dedicated Win10 laptop I use for the processing (I tried linux for a while which also worked fine).

The RPI will cost you about £60 and everything is captured to it so you can leave it outside going while you catch some z's. Of course you can use vnc/browser to use it live too and it works on my wireless network or in hotspot mode so no cables apart from those at the mount and its all powered by a £50 Halfords powerpack/starter.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Dazzyt66

[Starslayer]

Thank you for the ongoing replies. They are appreciated although much of the information and terminology is well above my experience / knowledge level.  I do like the idea of the Raspberry thing but the downside I can see there is that I will be using an alt az mount without goto to try and captcher say 1 minute of moon / planet. (Yes I have been watching Small Optics you tube channel ) I will not be able to see what I am focused on using the Pi. 
 

I have successfully installed windows 10 now on my iMac. I think I need to crowbar my daughter’s laptop from her studies one night and see how I fair. 

[Grifflin]

For what it is worth, I started with an Alt-Az mount (Celestron Nexstar 6SE) and used a cheap (isa) laptop Core i3 with 128Gb SSD, 4Gb Ram, 2 x USB3.0.  Since upgrade equipment to a GoTo EQ mount, dedicated astro camera etc etc. and the laptop is now running NINA, PHD2, SharpCap and it does all the magic stuff like plate solving.  I also added an external SSD drive to make it easier to transfer data to my iMac where I do all the processing using PixInsight.

Might look at the Raspberry route in the future but this is working fine for me so far.

Neil

Edited September 14, 2021 by Grifflin

[Starslayer]

On 13/09/2021 at 13:57, JonCarleton said:

 

Any old laptop will do for basic imaging and scope control.  However, once you get a wad of images and need to process them, you will find that is where the heavy lifting starts.  Something with 8G or more ram and a separate graphics processor (preferably NVIDIA) is a good start.  You -can- stack and process with a less, but you will become one with the concept of  "infinate slowness."  Ideally, a slow, older laptop with a decent display (I use a raspberry pi, actually) for the imaging bit and a real kicker desktop for stacking and processing.

Can I just clarify this then.. Any old laptop to do the capturing is fine.  It is the next stages that need the power so I could then go to my iMac for the rest. ?  No need for separate graphics in the laptop but is SSD still preferable to improve the capture quality etc.? 

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Starslayer

[powerlord]

Assuming the capture camera is USB3, for capture you need usb3 and an ssd. that's the main things. without them you will not reach the fps that your camera is capable of.

If your camera is USB2, the any old laptop will do, as even a HDD will cope with that slow data rate. But frankly if yer buying an old laptop - just get the sort I was recommending as it's cheap enough. I wouldn't buy a laptop without usb3 and an SSD no matter how cheap it was now to be honest.

You say you want to do moon/planets rather than DSO ? If thats the case - I'd definately recommend using  vmware windows on the imac. then you can use the 'best of breed' free software that is windows only. yes, you can use wine, etc - but why bother when vmware is free and far more stable.

PIPP to stablise video and crop.

autostakkert to stack

registax to process the resultant image with wavelets.

those are all free, and windows only.

You can run vmware in 'Unity view' if you like, which basically will just make the windows app look like they are running on your mac anyway, though frankly I prefer to keep that off, and have the vm running as a self contained window of microsoft vm mince - keep my mac unpolluted 🙂

Once you have your end image, you can then of course edit it further in your imac editor of preference (I recommend Affinity Photo)

stu

[JonCarleton]

Your clarification is mostly correct.  As the previous message implies, USB 3.0 is a plus.  USB2.0 will do for some cameras, but it will be a slight bottleneck.  No real processing or graphics processing required for the imaging, but a slow harddrive will be a bottleneck.  Once again, if you have USB3.0, a fast SD chip in a USB3.0 plugin works pretty well.  That will make it easy to take the data to your MAC for processing.  Both StarTools and PixInsight have versions for MAC.  I've had good luck with StarTools, once I got to know it.

[Starslayer]

Ok all.  So I have taken the plunge and gone for this - see below.   £200. Purposely kept it small and I literally do ONLY want this for my astronomy interest.  My choice based on I think I can actually use this to do everything if I need to but also have the choice to take stuff to the iMac at different stages as necessary . A class refurb and 1 year guarantee. 

REALLY appreciate all the help even though I did not understand all of it. 😉🤔  I have a SV205 arriving today too so fingers crossed for clear skies. 

[pete_81]

Seeing that you've just done, missed the chance to suggest going down the route of the mini-PC (raspberry pi) for £100 with case, power, etc. Only need monitor to run it (or connect via vnc), just thought that looks like Amazon listing so you could think about this as a much cheaper option but commonly used on setups (not that I'm biased!). I didn't know they existed or were as good (sole purpose of mine and many on here is for astro)

[malc-c]

42 minutes ago, Starslayer said:

Ok all.  So I have taken the plunge and gone for this - see below.   £200. Purposely kept it small and I literally do ONLY want this for my astronomy interest.  My choice based on I think I can actually use this to do everything if I need to but also have the choice to take stuff to the iMac at different stages as necessary . A class refurb and 1 year guarantee. 

REALLY appreciate all the help even though I did not understand all of it. 😉🤔  I have a SV205 arriving today too so fingers crossed for clear skies. 

 

IMO that will do just fine for controlling the hardware.  I can't find any site detailing the specs of the USB ports, but that may not matter as a USB 3 camera will still work over USB 2, but data won't comedown the pipe as fast.  In reality this may not make much difference in practice.  As mentioned I'm using an old QHY5 mono camera that uses USB2, but it can still provide ample frame rates and when it comes to guiding performs just fine with PHD2.

As for processing, it will be possible to use Deep Sky Stacker on that machine, but if you have a powerful imac then transferring the raw images to the imac, either via an external hard drive or over the network and using that as the processing machine is always an option.  I do that when stacking my subs in Deep Sky Stacker, which when processing makes use of all 8 cores of my Ryzen PC

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by malc-c
typo

[powerlord]

that will be great. looks same as mine.

you can always connect to it remotely from the house over RDP later when you get more advanced. Your throughput for video imaging will be massively better than a raspberry pi onto an sd card. I'm not a fan of astroberry personally - and for someone like yourself, it would be a horrible mistake imho. windows and firecapture, etc will be nice and simple and 'just work'.

I've not experience with the sv205. I have the 105 - which is kinda rubbish, but cheap. the sv205 seems a fair better better - I'm sure it will be ideal to start with.

When you get a bit better you'll probably want to get a 'proper' planetary camera like a zwo asi224 or even an asi120. The main difference is in the way it captures videos uncompressed - this is what you really want for the best quality.

After all our talk of ssds and usb3, your sv205 is really not going to use any of it - it records in m-jpeg - which is a compressed format, and only supports low frame rates. It says its usb3.0, but in reality it ain't gonna use anymore than usb2.0 bandwidth - I'd put money on it. It's basically a webcam in a different case.

I'm not saying its pants - you'll get nice results especially of the moon. But for planets where you need to maximise fps - you'll not get great results.. even their own page shows that:

https://www.svbony.com/sv205-astronomy-camera

Let us know how you get on - though I've only been doing this 9 months I've learned a hell of a lot. And I'm an IT architect by trade, and a mac and windows user and developer for 25 years.. so if you've any issues I'd imagine I can sort em easy enough.

 

[Starslayer]

1 hour ago, powerlord said:

that will be great. looks same as mine.

you can always connect to it remotely from the house over RDP later when you get more advanced. Your throughput for video imaging will be massively better than a raspberry pi onto an sd card. I'm not a fan of astroberry personally - and for someone like yourself, it would be a horrible mistake imho. windows and firecapture, etc will be nice and simple and 'just work'.

I've not experience with the sv205. I have the 105 - which is kinda rubbish, but cheap. the sv205 seems a fair better better - I'm sure it will be ideal to start with.

When you get a bit better you'll probably want to get a 'proper' planetary camera like a zwo asi224 or even an asi120. The main difference is in the way it captures videos uncompressed - this is what you really want for the best quality.

After all our talk of ssds and usb3, your sv205 is really not going to use any of it - it records in m-jpeg - which is a compressed format, and only supports low frame rates. It says its usb3.0, but in reality it ain't gonna use anymore than usb2.0 bandwidth - I'd put money on it. It's basically a webcam in a different case.

I'm not saying its pants - you'll get nice results especially of the moon. But for planets where you need to maximise fps - you'll not get great results.. even their own page shows that:

https://www.svbony.com/sv205-astronomy-camera

Let us know how you get on - though I've only been doing this 9 months I've learned a hell of a lot. And I'm an IT architect by trade, and a mac and windows user and developer for 25 years.. so if you've any issues I'd imagine I can sort em easy enough.

 

Brilliant, thank you