Advice on 15 X 70 binoculars and a monopod

[keora]

I bought a pair of Canon image stabilising binoculars eighteen months ago. They are very good, much better than the cheap Celestron telescope I recently bought. It’s limited in what it can do and I’m thinking of replacing it.  I’ve got advice from this forum on better types of telescopes.

I’m now wondering if, instead of buying a better telescope, a pair of more powerful binoculars might be a good alternative.  Setting up a telescope takes time and I find that star hopping to fainter stars and clusters is difficult with my current scope..

Could anyone please suggest a suitable pair of 15 x 70 binoculars and a monopod to use with it? My budget is up to about £300 - £400.

 

Canon Image Stabiliser binoculars 10X32. Celestron Explorascope 114AZ Newtonian Reflector Telescope, Aperture 114mm, Focal Length 1000mm, Focal Ratio f/9, Star Pointer red dot finderscope. Original eyepieces replaced with 32mm and 9 mm skywatcher Plossls.

[PeterCPC]

I used to have some Celestron Skymaster 15X70 and really liked them. However, I found that you could not really use them without a tripod. Monopod did not cut it for me.

[Ken82]

Yes agreed with Peter. I use a pair of lunt 16x70, a real joy to use on widefield objects but I also have them on a monopod with a spider stabiliser. 
 

I think the equivalent binos are these Helios ones -

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/helios-binoculars/helios-lightquest-hr-70mm-binoculars.html

 

[banjaxed]

I use my 15 x 70 binos with a monopod and find them very steady. Hope I am not stating the obvious here but holding the binos with both hands does not make for steady viewing IMO, I find it much more stable to hold the binos with one hand and the monopod with the other. Works well for me.

[keora]

Which make and type of binoculars do you use please?

And what type of monopod do you prefer?

 I get the feeling that there’s a range of mono and tripods available, but they

 might not fit certain makes of bins.

[banjaxed]

I have the Celesron Skymaster 15 x 70 which come with a plastic adapter so the first thing I did was to buy a metal type which are much more stable. Nearly all monopods come with the standard 1/4” thread so you can choose whichever one you like. Mine is just a basic telescopic model.

[GrumpiusMaximus]

I have a pair of Celestron Skymaster 20x80s and monopod them (converted Manfrotto tripod, so heavy duty) and they're quite decent on the monopod.  Don't expect the same kind of stability you would get from a tripod - although a monopod is a lot more comfortable for me.  For 15x70s, you're on the verge of what I'd consider reasonable on a monopod with decent stability. 

In my brief post history here, I've recommended a parallelogram already!  I built mine for less than £50 but I used some old cymbal stand hardware (I'm a drummer) in the base.  It takes less than five minutes to set up and works really well with a tripod head, so that could be something you might consider?

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by GrumpiusMaximus

[keora]

Grumpius, thanks for the advice, I wouldn't be able to make my own parallelogram telescope stand. I don't have the skills, and I'd rather pay more and get something ready to use. I've just found this monopod / tripod on the net:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/2802196?clickPR=plp:cat:technology:cameraaccessories:tripodsandmonopods:1:2

It's described as a Manfrotto MKCOMPACTACN-BK tripod that extends up to 60" . It's got a max load of 1.4kgs so it would accept a Celestron 15 x 70 I think. The extended height is 150 cms. Does this seem a bit short ? My eye level is 160 cm, so it could be that if I'm looking at the zenith, I would have to be crouching a bit to look vertically up.

The difficulty nowadays is finding the equipment you want. It seems to me that lots of stuff is unavailable and it's not clear when things will get back to normal.

Edited April 17, 2021 by keora

[GrumpiusMaximus]

I would say that is on the shorter side.  Tripods generally are and 60" would be a real pain.  At 6'2", I do have problems using tripods in a reasonable way.  If you're crouching to use a tripod, you won't want to use it for long and trying to use a tripod sitting down is very uncomfortable and I wouldn't recommend it personally (although I'm sure there are more experienced people with different views). 

I bought a stool like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DOPGL-Upgraded-Lightweight-Collapsible-Retractable/dp/B0899RYZVN/ref=dp_prsubs_1?pd_rd_i=B0899RYZVN&psc=1

And a cheap tripod head for my monopod in the end.  The stool seems to take my ample (and it is ample, I'm nearly 20 Stone thanks to Lockdown Chocolate (TM)) frame and provided you've got somewhere relatively level to sit, you can get under a 72" monopod easily enough when it's at full extension.  Not ideal for long sessions (which is where the p-gram comes in) but the fact you can pull it in tight at an angle and hold it there really helps and it's more stable than you would first think.  Monopods are relatively inexpsive too - so buy a 72" one (or the tallest you can) and you should be ok.

Never underestimate the amount of crouching you'll do with a setup that's too short.  My p-gram goes to about 7 feet at full height (I'm yet to fully measure it) but even then I don't tend to look at the zenith too much.  Different if you're reclined or on a stool, of course.

I'm a ham-fisted, dyspraxic (literally) twit that barely knows a drill from a hammer from a set of ratcheting sockets but I did manage to build my p-mount in a couple of days.  Using a double-braced cymbal stand made it really, really easy.  Something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pearl-C830-Straight-Double-Braced/dp/B00BP3MGQ2/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=double+braced+cymbal+stand&qid=1618771520&sr=8-9

(Other unethical retailers are available)

Is as cheap as chips on eBay.  I'd recommend 80s Pearl stands if possible as they weigh a ton (and are sold cheap for exactly that reason) - hair metal was a thing, after all... and if you hammer the roll pin that holds the head to the stem (to end up with a plain tube), then you can slightly under-drill a hole in a wooden stem and hammer it in straight to get a really solid attachment to the bottom of a parallelogram that gives you an easy way to rotate around the top, plus you can adjust the friction.  I really should get a picture.  That's what I've done and it seems to work - although I've only had my parallelogram up-and-running for about a monht (so about ten uses or so). 

TLDR:  I wouldn't use a short tripod.  They're a sub-optimal experience and you'll stop using it almost immediately.  Monopods are better, cheaper and easier to use with a tripod head.  Parallelograms are actually pretty easy to make and you can use a second-hand cymbal stand to do the difficult engineering if you want.

Edited April 18, 2021 by GrumpiusMaximus

[GrumpiusMaximus]

I will also just put it out there that the linked tripod has a maximum stated weight limit of 1.4Kg.  My 80x20s are over 2Kg on their own so if you ever wanted some ridiculous binoculars, you're over the stated limit on that tripod. 

[keora]

Thank you for your advice.

Since I know little about large binoculars (15 x 70), I hoped to buy both bins and stand from the same retailer. It's simpler than first buying the bins to start with and then visiting lots of specialist shops hoping to find a suitable stand. And I might not be successful.

I've got an aluminium  rod rest for fishing which extends to about 7 or 8 feet. It's light but strong, it'll easily support a two kilo pair of binoculars.It's got a pointed end which I can jab into the ground. I can buy a plastic rod rest top which has a horizontal bar about 10 inches long with notches to hold fishing rods in various positions. This screws into the end of the rod rest. 

Would this be suitable for supporting and aiming the bins at the stars?

(I've seen something similar suggested by the astronomer Steve Tonkin on his website)

Edited April 19, 2021 by keora

[Nik271]

28 minutes ago, keora said:

Thank you for your advice.

Since I know little about large binoculars (15 x 70), I hoped to buy both bins and stand from the same retailer. It's simpler than first buying the bins to start with and then visiting lots of specialist shops hoping to find a suitable stand. And I might not be successful.

I've got an aluminium  rod rest for fishing which extends to about 7 or 8 feet. It's light but strong, it'll easily support a two kilo pair of binoculars.It's got a pointed end which I can jab into the ground. I can buy a plastic rod rest top which has a horizontal bar about 10 inches long with notches to hold fishing rods in various positions. This screws into the end of the rod rest. 

Would this be suitable for supporting and aiming the bins at the stars?

(I've seen something similar suggested by the astronomer Steve Tonkin on his website)

You can try putting a towel or a small bean bag on the horizontal bar and rest the binoculars on it. It should work up to elevations of 60degrees I think. People  also use broom handles, so low tech option is definitely worth trying first.

[GrumpiusMaximus]

Give it a go, by all means.  A small bean bag really helps because the binoculars settle in.  See also, car roof! 

I've done the broom before.  Take a broom, stick it bristles-up, stick a tea towel on it and the binoculars are supported there.  Works quite well in a pinch!

Great page here:

https://binocularsky.com/binoc_mount.php

[ollypenrice]

Your image stabilized binoculars will probably have quite a high magnification. Which ones do you have? And being Canon they will give a very good image quality. You risk being very disappointed by any improvement or great change from budget 15x70s.

I use high quality 8x42 binoculars and budget 15x70. To be honest I rarely use the 15x70 any more because they do not make for a fundamentally different observing other than by requiring a tripod. That's a lot of palaver for a not-very-different experience, the light grasp and magnification of the big ones being offset by the inferior image quality. Pointing them is also harder than pointing a small telescope on an alt-az mount. (I use a medium photo tripod for the 15x70.)

The advantages of a 70-80mm telescope over 15x70 binoculars are, in my view,

- The option of high or low power for galaxies, planets, nebulae and the moon as well as the possibility of ultra widefield viewing with a long FL eyepiece.

- Easier pointing from using a dedicated alt-az mount.

- More comfortable viewing by using a 90 degree star diagonal.

- Better optics from eliminating the erecting prism.

Nutshell: I would rather observe at 15x in a small telescope than in binoculars unless I had a parallelogram mount and even then it would be marginal.

Olly

Edited April 20, 2021 by ollypenrice
Typo

[keora]

Thank you for the links to suitable monopods for big binoculars. I’ve now got enough information to help me with my purchase.

Ollypenrice, your comments are useful. I’ve got 10 x 32 Canon IS binoculars and a cheap poor quality Celestron telescope. The scope is just about OK for viewing bright objects with the red dot finder. The equipment I have is at the bottom of my first posting in this thread.

But for finding dimmer objects it’s useless. I think it’s a combination of my being unable to star hop effectively, plus the stars seen through the scope at about 35 magnification are dimmer and fuzzier than the same stars at mag 10 in the bins. In recent weeks I’ve been using the scope to find the beehive cluster in cancer. I just go through the routine but have never seen the beehive thro the scope. Yet I can find it with binoculars in a minute or so.

I have wondered about buying a small refracting scope at about 80 or 100 mm objective width. There’s a shortage of them just now. I also wonder if I’ll still have the same difficulties in star hopping. That’s putting me off buying another scope

Edited April 20, 2021 by keora

[ollypenrice]

3 hours ago, keora said:

Thank you for the links to suitable monopods for big binoculars. I’ve now got enough information to help me with my purchase.

Ollypenrice, your comments are useful. I’ve got 10 x 32 Canon IS binoculars and a cheap poor quality Celestron telescope. The scope is just about OK for viewing bright objects with the red dot finder. The equipment I have is at the bottom of my first posting in this thread.

But for finding dimmer objects it’s useless. I think it’s a combination of my being unable to star hop effectively, plus the stars seen through the scope at about 35 magnification are dimmer and fuzzier than the same stars at mag 10 in the bins. In recent weeks I’ve been using the scope to find the beehive cluster in cancer. I just go through the routine but have never seen the beehive thro the scope. Yet I can find it with binoculars in a minute or so.

I have wondered about buying a small refracting scope at about 80 or 100 mm objective width. There’s a shortage of them just now. I also wonder if I’ll still have the same difficulties in star hopping. That’s putting me off buying another scope

We all use some kind of finderscope on our main one. A widefield instrument like a refractor is best served by a reflex sight such as a Telrad or a 'red dot finder.'  https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/telrad-finder-astronomy.html  This device creates three red rings like a target seen on the sky and has virtually no parallax so it shows just where you are pointing. It does not magnify and has no tube so you can have both eyes open. It does not restrict your view. A scope on an alt-az mount will stay still while you estimate the position of the Telrad on the sky and plan your next hop. Both paper and computer star charts can have Telrad circle overlays placed over them. This makes life very easy.

Your 32mm Canons do rather lack light grasp fr astronomy so 70mm would be a considerable change for you. (I forgot to check in your signature, sorry!)

Olly

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I use a Benro MAD49A which works a treat with my Helios LightQuest 16x80 binoculars.

[keora]

Thank you for the information on the Telrad finder and the Benro monopod.

I'm not clear exactly how to use the Telrad. I've tried star  hopping from a bright star to a dimmer star, using a star char to find stars along the route as a waymarker. Difficult to do for a beginner, but I get the idea. With Telrad, do you still have to find these intermediate stars?

Suppose I want to find a dim cluster about 6 degrees left of a bright star. If the Telrad has say a 2 degree diameter circle on the screen, and I align the curve of the circle, do I then just do three left movements totalling 6 degrees to get to the cluster. Am I able to judge when I've moved the scope two degrees without checking the stars seen in through the telescope? This might seem  a daft question but I couldn't find an explanation on the website.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

10 minutes ago, keora said:

Thank you for the information on the Telrad finder and the Benro monopod.

I'm not clear exactly how to use the Telrad. I've tried star  hopping from a bright star to a dimmer star, using a star char to find stars along the route as a waymarker. Difficult to do for a beginner, but I get the idea. With Telrad, do you still have to find these intermediate stars?

Suppose I want to find a dim cluster about 6 degrees left of a bright star. If the Telrad has say a 2 degree diameter circle on the screen, and I align the curve of the circle, do I then just do three left movements totalling 6 degrees to get to the cluster. Am I able to judge when I've moved the scope two degrees without checking the stars seen in through the telescope? This might seem  a daft question but I couldn't find an explanation on the website.

I actually never use any form of a finder with wide-field instruments like 15x70 binoculars. In fact, my home-made finder scope for my C8 is a 14x70 RACI with about the same true FOV as my 16x80 binoculars. I just point at some bright reference star and star hop. I really wouldn't know how a telrad would work on a pair of binoculars other than much bigger ones mounted on a tripod.

[ollypenrice]

3 minutes ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

I actually never use any form of a finder with wide-field instruments like 15x70 binoculars. In fact, my home-made finder scope for my C8 is a 14x70 RACI with about the same true FOV as my 16x80 binoculars. I just point at some bright reference star and star hop. I really wouldn't know how a telrad would work on a pair of binoculars other than much bigger ones mounted on a tripod.

I wouldn't suggest a Telrad for binos, only for a widefield scope.

Olly

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Just now, ollypenrice said:

I wouldn't suggest a Telrad for binos, only for a widefield scope.

Olly

There they can be useful, although I don't have anything on my 80 mm F/6, which gives me 5.75 degrees with the Vixen LVW 42 mm, and 5.3 with the Nagler 31T5.

[ollypenrice]

3 minutes ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

There they can be useful, although I don't have anything on my 80 mm F/6, which gives me 5.75 degrees with the Vixen LVW 42 mm, and 5.3 with the Nagler 31T5.

You're a very experienced observer, though. It's much harder for beginners to aim a scope, I think.

Olly

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

9 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

You're a very experienced observer, though. It's much harder for beginners to aim a scope, I think.

Olly

In my first scope the finder had just 5 degrees FOV, and that worked pretty well. That's more than 40 years ago, so I wasn't particularly experienced 

[keora]

Michael, Olli. Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was refering to putting a Telrad on a telescope to find dim objects, rather than using an optical finder scope.

I'm OK at using binoculars because the 5 degree field of view makes it easier to locate dimmer stars. With a telescope it's like peeking through a key hole.

Last night the sky was clear  and I managed to locate various stars, including Melotte 111 just with binoculars. I didn't even bother putting up the telescope.. So anything that makes it easier to use a scope, such as a Telrad, interests me.

From all the excellent advice I've been given, it might be better to replace my current telescope with a better one, rather than with big binoculars.

Edited April 22, 2021 by keora