Cheap WIFI controlled portable scope options

[powerlord]

Hi chaps,

I'm new to astronomy, but want to get something I can use when away in the motorhome. So portable. I also want something motor driven and wifi enabled so I can use with a mobile app.

Its really for very amatuer viewing of planets, and 'big stuff' and hopefully some photography. It is the looking at cool stuff, and photographing it that interests me, rather than getting deep into astronomy. I realise this may be anathema to some, but hopefully - each to their own. Hence an ability to have the scope easily and quickly take me to 'cool stuff' while I remain an astro-numpty is key.

It does seem that telescope techology hasn't really kept apace with the rest of the world much.. but looking around, the best cheap option seems to me to be:

Sky-Watcher Heritage 90p (or maybe 114p) Virtuoso.

With that an either a £60 sky-watcher dongle, or if I get it working, just a basic 3 quid ESP8286 dongle I'll make I should be able to connect with sky-watchers app and (maybe) sky safari ?

So for about £200 quid all in, I have a basic setup. adding a mobile phone mount would get me a basic photography setup ?

I can't see anything else in the same price range or even close to it ? Have I missed anything ? The cheapest WIFI telescopes seems to be around £350 or more.

I'm open to second hand, but it doesn't seem like ebay is filled with options.

Any advice greatfully recieved.

stu

 

[Zermelo]

Hi Stu, and welcome to the forum.

Your requirements are quite well expressed, but I suspect you will have difficulty satisfying them all.

For example, on the likely targets, if you were to concentrate on planets then that would steer you towards a telescope with a longer focal ratio because you need to get quite high magnifications - so probably a longer refractor or a Maksutov (mirror-lens combo). But for viewing "big stuff" - larger deep sky objects and clusters - you are better off with shorter F ratio and a bigger light gathering capacity, like the dobsonian design you mention. Experienced observers often have multiple scopes for different purposes; beginners will often pick a single compromise instrument and accept that it will not be ideal for all situations. Some will go for refractors and live with the narrower field of view, some go for shortish reflectors and accept that they won't get as much magnification (but also bear in mind that magnification is often limited by conditions rather than the instrument in any case). Your future selection of eyepieces will also affect the capabilities of course.

And then on photography: yes, you can use a smartphone to get simple, short exposure snaps of bright targets like the moon - there are examples on this forum. But if you want to reproduce some of the more impressive images you see, especially of fainter DSOs, then you're going to need a more capable setup, especially a mount that can track very accurately. That kind of gear can easily push you into four figures, and is more than you need to get a good start in visual observing. So the advice here is usually to avoid that initially, unless you're really sure you want to go that way. Also, equipment like that tends to be on the heavy side and would not fit well with your portability requirement.

And then there's the requirement to "have the scope easily and quickly take me to 'cool stuff'" - I presume by this you mean what's usually called "GoTo" capability. It doesn't have to be wifi enabled, you can operate it with a wired handset, and some people prefer that. However it is true that the variants that use a mobile phone app do save a chunk on the cost. You mention that you don't think telescopes have kept pace with advances in technology - I would disagree. The availabilty of entry-level computer controlled goto, with large target databases, is very significant. A further improvement (generically called "plate solving", e.g. Celestron's "StarSense") will even align your telescope for you at the start of a session, which even experienced observers have found useful. However, these additions do add to the cost, and you're correct to expect to pay in excess of £350. My own scope is one of the cheaper ones with goto, and that cost £389. 

So I'm afraid you'll be out of luck expecting something to do all that for the £200 mark. If you drop the imaging and goto aspects then you can certainly get something (in principle - stocks are non-existent due to Covid) that will serve you well. This page has some other examples. I would advise against buying on eBay, etc. and stick to well-known specialist sellers. Second hand is possibly an option, though again from reputable sources. You may already have found the for sale section here. 

Good luck with finding something that suits.

 

[Tiny Clanger]

1 hour ago, powerlord said:

Hi chaps,

I'm new to astronomy, but want to get something I can use when away in the motorhome. So portable. I also want something motor driven and wifi enabled so I can use with a mobile app.

Its really for very amatuer viewing of planets, and 'big stuff' and hopefully some photography. It is the looking at cool stuff, and photographing it that interests me, rather than getting deep into astronomy. I realise this may be anathema to some, but hopefully - each to their own. Hence an ability to have the scope easily and quickly take me to 'cool stuff' while I remain an astro-numpty is key.

It does seem that telescope techology hasn't really kept apace with the rest of the world much.. but looking around, the best cheap option seems to me to be:

Sky-Watcher Heritage 90p (or maybe 114p) Virtuoso.

With that an either a £60 sky-watcher dongle, or if I get it working, just a basic 3 quid ESP8286 dongle I'll make I should be able to connect with sky-watchers app and (maybe) sky safari ?

So for about £200 quid all in, I have a basic setup. adding a mobile phone mount would get me a basic photography setup ?

I can't see anything else in the same price range or even close to it ? Have I missed anything ? The cheapest WIFI telescopes seems to be around £350 or more.

I'm open to second hand, but it doesn't seem like ebay is filled with options.

Any advice greatfully recieved.

stu

 

Hi stu, and welcome.

I think the reason telescope technology has not changed much is because telescopes are actually quite simple devices, (albeit some may be engineered in complex ways ) a few lenses in a tube, a few mirrors in a tube ...

You want something transportable in a campervan, therefore it must be compact, and you mention wanting to see planets. While I'm a big fan of the Skywatcher heritage dob.s, I don't think they would be ideal for what you want. A better choice for planets would be a maksutov , which has a longer focal length than the heritage dobs ( so makes things appear larger, which is what you want for viewing planets and the Moon ) These are compact little scopes ( well, the smaller aperture ones are anyway !),

This for instance is within your budget at £172, however you only get the telescope not the mount or tripod :

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-102-ota.html

or there's the even dinkier 90mm model for £40 less

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/all-telescopes/skywatcher-skymax-90-ota.html

Where huge advances have been made in amateur astronomy kit is the guiding systems, but there you are going to hit the problem of cost : that same 102 maksutov on the sort of mount you'd like takes it up to £329

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-102-synscan-az-goto.html

I recently bought the larger, 127 mak from the same range, specifically for use viewing planets and the Moon, and it is great. I can't say how it would be for use with a 'phone for photos, as I don't use a 'phone for that purpose. Mine is on a simple but very sturdy photo tripod which I already owned. I'd hoped to get away with using the equally hefty pro. pan/tilt tripod head too, but the weight of the mak was too much for it, and I had to buy the proper alt/az head which has fine controls specifically for use with a telescope. I've seen reports of people successfully using the 102 mak and 90 mak on a photo tripod though, it will be smaller and lighter than mine.

The upshot of all this is here's what I'd suggest : with a little bit of help from an app, or an online planetarium, or even a simple printed out map of the sky in the coming month (available on many websites) it is very easy to identify Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Venus . You can see them with your naked eye , so there's really no need for computer control , same with the Moon obviously. So, spend your money on a 102 mak and the sturdiest photo tripod you can get for the remainder. The package will pack away small , be easy to set up, and you can look at some of your primary targets.

If you get enthused with the hobby, and want to be automatically steered to see more, you can buy a mount like this at a later date

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi-alt-az-mount-tripod.html

Hope that helps, I'm sure there will be plenty of other suggestions too !

Heather

 

 

[Tiny Clanger]

I found the comprehensive review of the 102 mak, which mentions using it on a tripod, it has plenty of photos showing how it neatly packs away, as well as shots taken through it

http://www.waloszek.de/astro_sw_mak102_e.php

Heather

[powerlord]

thanks chaps.

afaik the heritage 90p virtuoso is a Maksutov-Cassegrain ? Reviews said it was good for planets ? At Around £185 inc the motorised 'goto' mount it seemed best value to me.

As I say, adding a home build ESP8266 to the RJ-12 and I have a full goto system. The idea of the external controller is a bit archaic - which is the kinda of thing I meant by lagging in technology.

As you point out, the Star Sense thing tries to do something useful, but it's an opportunity missed imho - it should be providing tracking feedback to the controller to keep the scope locked on the target. Instead all it's doing is telling you where to move it to.. without that control loop, they want a ton of money for what is no more than a mobile app and a mirror basically.

Anyway, that's by the by.

A modern mobile like the P20 Pro I have can do some pretty amazing long exposures. Hence I thought, start simple with that. I'm big into photography and video for my other hobbies and have a bunch of kit I could use, but wanted to keep it simple to start. It seemed to be the moble mount with intervalometer app should be some good stacked shots ?

But I did feel I must be missing the search terms or something, because here's the Sky-watcher Heritage 90 - even if I bought the £60 rip off wifi adapter - coming in at 245 quid all in. But no other manufacturer seems to offer wifi enabled scope for anything like the same price ?

With stuff like the evScope, Vespera, etc being kickstarted and costing major cash.. and yet offering really not much more (and in some ways much less) than the above setup offers it seems crazy to me that the manufacturers are not jumping to engage the 'astro-numpty' market like me.

With a smart app on the eyepiece mount for a mobile, some image recognition for precise tracking with feedback to the motors, and some decent camera features like intervalometer has, they could be completing in that £2000 'smart' telescope range with a hardware unchanged and some decent app development ?

As pointed out though, combination of covid, brexit and xmas means everything is out of stock everwhere so looks like it will be long time before I find one in stock !

stu

[Zermelo]

27 minutes ago, powerlord said:

afaik the heritage 90p virtuoso is a Maksutov-Cassegrain ?

Yes, it is. Maks generally are good for planets as they have longer focal ratios, hence better magnification. Also important are the amount of light it can gather and the resolution it is capable of, both of which depend in particular on the aperture, as I'm sure you know if you're already into photography. 90mm is a smaller mak, I'm not sure how that affects its possibilities; in principle it ought to be capable. I don't do imaging, but the imaging people on here seem to go for at least a 130mm.

It does have the SW tracking and dual encoding features (which I think is surprising at this price point) but neither the handset nor the wifi, so you would need to add a dongle as you say. I share your preference for app control over a dedicated handset, though I know that plenty do not. As to why there aren't more smaller scopes that are goto-enabled, I don't know.  Perhaps the manufacturers don't think the beginner market will, generally, stump up for the relatively high price of the tech compared with that of the scope. Or if they do want, and can afford, the tech then they would want a larger aperture also. As with all these things, the price will no doubt continue to drop and it will feature more widely. One thing that I can't see getting any cheaper is the precision engineering that goes into the production of a close tolerance driven mount.

37 minutes ago, powerlord said:

A modern mobile like the P20 Pro I have can do some pretty amazing long exposures.

I'm not sure if you're aware of the following point, apologies in advance if you are. Mounts like the one that comes with this Heritage are alt-azimuth, they rotate in directions that follow the earth's longitude and an object's altitude in the sky. Computerised alt-az mounts can track an object to keep it in the centre of the frame, but over time the image will rotate in that frame and it blurs. As I said, short exposures of brighter objects are possible, but longer exposures need an equatorial mount that matches the rotation of the sky and keeps the image in the frame unrotated. Some alt-az mounts can be adapted to EQ mode with a "wedge". This one doesn't seem to have that option, though you could make one if you're handy at that sort of thing. Can you combine multiple, short exposures from an alt-az to image fainter objects? Yes you can, there's even a thread for that on this forum, but I presume it's called a "challenge" for a reason. Some of them get some amazing results, considering. It depends what your expectations are - as an experienced terrestrial photographer, I'm assuming you would have pretty high expectations. I don't know enough to comment on how your P20 smartphone imaging compares with a specialist astro camera; others may.

So yes, the kit you've mentioned would give you a very portable, easy-to-use visual setup, and you could certainly get some kind of imaging results out of it, but I'd still say that if you want to get into long exposure imaging of fainter objects you'd need something more.

 

 

 

[powerlord]

thanks. yes, I reckon I'm limited to only 10-15 secs exposures but can do lots of them and combine. I've done stacking that way with the phone and got some decent pics of milky way, etc.

Apart from being out of my price range, EQ mount seem to be a bit bulky for portability in a motorhome.

I've tried to find some pics people have taken with the heritage to set my expectations.

I found these - same mount, different scope:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/615168-anybody-have-a-sky-watcher-heritage-90-virtuoso/

But nothing really for the 90. I think that's what I need to hunt about for - if I can see what's possible and what isn't then I know what I'm letting myself in for so to speak.

p.s. p30 pro (sorry said p20 by mistake) has one of best cameras on a phone (top 5 or 6). attached is pic of moon I took from back garden with it for example.. I mean, its no match sensitivity for an SLR, etc but it should be capable enough for get some nice shots I'd hope ?

[vlaiv]

10 hours ago, powerlord said:

Hi chaps,

I'm new to astronomy, but want to get something I can use when away in the motorhome. So portable. I also want something motor driven and wifi enabled so I can use with a mobile app.

Its really for very amatuer viewing of planets, and 'big stuff' and hopefully some photography. It is the looking at cool stuff, and photographing it that interests me, rather than getting deep into astronomy. I realise this may be anathema to some, but hopefully - each to their own. Hence an ability to have the scope easily and quickly take me to 'cool stuff' while I remain an astro-numpty is key.

It does seem that telescope techology hasn't really kept apace with the rest of the world much.. but looking around, the best cheap option seems to me to be:

Sky-Watcher Heritage 90p (or maybe 114p) Virtuoso.

With that an either a £60 sky-watcher dongle, or if I get it working, just a basic 3 quid ESP8286 dongle I'll make I should be able to connect with sky-watchers app and (maybe) sky safari ?

So for about £200 quid all in, I have a basic setup. adding a mobile phone mount would get me a basic photography setup ?

I can't see anything else in the same price range or even close to it ? Have I missed anything ? The cheapest WIFI telescopes seems to be around £350 or more.

I'm open to second hand, but it doesn't seem like ebay is filled with options.

Any advice greatfully recieved.

stu

 

Your initial premise is certainly valid and has been done before - yes you can have virtuoso mount controlled via either SkyWatcher dongle or DIY Arduino or similar board that does the same for much less money.

Choice of telescope is also good - I would go with 102mm version instead of 90mm if it exists on Virtuoso mount as it has larger aperture by almost no increase in focal length (1250 vs 1300mm).

For visual it will be good. I doubt that you'll be able to do anything photographic with it apart from the moon with mobile phone and adapter.

Virtuoso mount is probably only sufficient for visual tracking and probably does not have enough precision for photographic tracking.

Even mounts costing more like AzGTI don't have enough precision in comparison to mounts usually used for astrophotography. For example AzGTI has stepper resolution of 0.625". EQ5 mount has stepper resolution 0.287642" and HEQ5 has twice precision with stepper resolution of 0.143617" per step (same as EQ6)

In all likelihood Virtuoso will not have resolution at AzGti level.

Indeed, I managed to find the specs for it on FLO website and this is what it says:

DC Servo Motors, Driving Resolution 2.42 arc sec

Sidereal rate is ~15"/s. This means that mount will "tick" at 6.2 times per second making 2.42" jumps instead of what should be smooth motion. Fact that it is Az mount means that it will have variable speed in both axis (unlike EQ that should stay put in DEC and only track with constant rate in RA) and tracking will be very jumpy. This will create a lot of blur in longer exposure photography.

If AzGTI is capable of providing imaging platform for about 3"/px resolution - maybe Virtuoso can be used for resolutions of about 10"/px or so - which is 50mm lens territory and certainly not 1300mm FL length (or 1250mm with 90mm model).

In the end, I would advise you to maybe think about this setup:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-gti.html

It will work as wifi out of the box. It will offer you telescope version that is 4" so decent aperture - will show wonderful view of the moon and planets, has a lot of potential for different kind of imaging.

You can get second hand DSLR and lens and use AzGTI mount in EQ mode. I've done that - you just need a wedge (simple pan/tilt head can be used for this - I used ball head before I got regular Skywatcher wedge) and counter weight ( M12 threaded rod and simple counter weight is all you need).

You can use it in Eq mode for EEVA with DSLR as well - also called live stacking. This will work even in Az mode. You could try that with phone as well.

Think about that possibility.

[happy-kat]

Planets aren't as effected as often video with fast frame rate is taken so less effected by tracking.

The virtuoso tracks pretty well if time is taken to get balance right and alignment plus not overloading it. I've got 30 seconds using a 246mm telescope and DSLR. I do mainly either use a 85mm lens or 55mm and averages around 20 seconds. Where and how high you point in the sky greatly effects exposure length.

However the virtuoso is not an imaging mount it just happens to be what I have so I use it within the limitations. The mount uses a standard clamp so other telescopes could be used with it such as a bigger mak (length is limiting for clearance and watch the weight).

[powerlord]

48 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

In the end, I would advise you to maybe think about this setup:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-gti-wifi/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-gti.html

It will work as wifi out of the box. It will offer you telescope version that is 4" so decent aperture - will show wonderful view of the moon and planets, has a lot of potential for different kind of imaging.

You can get second hand DSLR and lens and use AzGTI mount in EQ mode. I've done that - you just need a wedge (simple pan/tilt head can be used for this - I used ball head before I got regular Skywatcher wedge) and counter weight ( M12 threaded rod and simple counter weight is all you need).

You can use it in Eq mode for EEVA with DSLR as well - also called live stacking. This will work even in Az mode. You could try that with phone as well.

Think about that possibility.

Thankyou - that's good advice. That's still fairly compact. No faffing about with electronics and a better lens. I've got a sony RX10 mk3 which would work well with it. I like the idea of tilting. I have a vixen polaris I've used before - but obviously this would work much better.

And its got the dual encoders too rather than the GTe thing.

AND you've managed to find the one place in britain (?) that have stock!!!

I'm sold!

thanks again - I will follow up with my experiences with it.