Question about ZWO/Planetary/EP configuration

[Jm1973]

Hi. Im currently using a DSLR attached directly to my telescope focusser to photograph DSOs.

I am going to buy a ZWO camera as I want to start autoguiding. I am going to attach it to my 9x50 finderscope.

So far so good...

 

However, I also want to occasionally use the ZWO camera to do some planetary imaging.

I am thinking about buying the USB3 ZWO ASI120MC-S, as I am not ready to start messing about with filters too much yet.

I have two questions.. 

 

1. Do you think the ZWO ASI120MC-S is a good choice for a starter camera for planetary imaging? It's about at the limit of my budget for now. From what I've read it should be fine as a guide camera.

2. How would I actually incorporate it into the imaging train? I assume I would need to use an EP in front of the ZWO in order to get the magnifications required to get some decent planetary shots? Or is this not the case? Also, just to make things awkward, the only semi-decent EPs I have are the BST Starguiders, which have quite a bulbous front aperture, so they are not easy to fit into an adaptor or extender. Does anyone have any idea how I could set this up please? And if I would need an EP in front of the camera at all...

 

Thanks.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Jm1973

[Cornelius Varley]

11 minutes ago, Jm1973 said:

2. How would I actually incorporate it into the imaging train? I assume I would need to use an EP in front of the ZWO in order to get the magnifications required to get some decent planetary shots? Or is this not the case?

This will probably depend upon your telescope. Normally a barlow or Powermate is used to increase the overall focal length of the telescope.

[Jm1973]

9 minutes ago, Cornelius Varley said:

This will probably depend upon your telescope. Normally a barlow or Powermate is used to increase the overall focal length of the telescope.

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

So do you mean Camera -> Barlow -> Focusser? Is that the usual way of it?

I have a barlow but it does not have a thread on it. 

[nephilim]

I've just bought the ZWO ASI 120MM to use as a guide camera, a mono camera is much more sensitive than a colour camera so it's easier to pick up a guide star.

[Jm1973]

3 minutes ago, nephilim said:

I've just bought the ZWO ASI 120MM to use as a guide camera, a mono camera is much more sensitive than a colour camera so it's easier to pick up a guide star.

Oh hey. You've got the same setup as me: EQ5 and Skywatcher 200p.

Are you imaging with the xbox cam?

[nephilim]

5 minutes ago, Jm1973 said:

Oh hey. You've got the same setup as me: EQ5 and Skywatcher 200p.

Are you imaging with the xbox cam?

Whoops, that was from a few years ago (I thought i'd deleted that). I'm using a Explore Scientific EXOS-2 PMC-Eight GOTO Mount now & about to buy a WO GT81 IV APO Triplet. I tried AP with my last set up (200p/ EQ5) but it was near on impossible, so this time around i'm buying the kit I should have bought last time. I was using an Xbox cam for planetary at the time & that worked ok as a cheap option. 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by nephilim

[Jm1973]

49 minutes ago, nephilim said:

Whoops, that was from a few years ago (I thought i'd deleted that). I'm using a Explore Scientific EXOS-2 PMC-Eight GOTO Mount now & about to buy a WO GT81 IV APO Triplet. I tried AP with my last set up (200p/ EQ5) but it was near on impossible, so this time around i'm buying the kit I should have bought last time. I was using an Xbox cam for planetary at the time & that worked ok as a cheap option. 

 

Yeah. I bought this setup for visual initially but now I want to image. So far I am able to image ok.. at least I haven;t butted up against anything insurmountable yet. I imagine at some point I will need to change scope, but so far it's working for me.

[vlaiv]

1 hour ago, Jm1973 said:

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

So do you mean Camera -> Barlow -> Focusser? Is that the usual way of it?

I have a barlow but it does not have a thread on it. 

Camera will come with 1.25" nose piece and you insert it into barlow like normal eyepiece and then you put barlow into focuser (again 1.25" connection).

Ideally you want something like x2 to x3 barlow for your scope and this camera.

[Jm1973]

2 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Camera will come with 1.25" nose piece and you insert it into barlow like normal eyepiece and then you put barlow into focuser (again 1.25" connection).

Ideally you want something like x2 to x3 barlow for your scope and this camera.

Thanks. Well I've got a 2x barlow, so that should be  ok then hopefully.

 

Do you think the colour version of this camera will be ok for auto-guiding?

Edited November 10, 2020 by Jm1973

[vlaiv]

7 minutes ago, Jm1973 said:

Do you think the colour version of this camera will be ok for auto-guiding?

Sure, I've only guided with color CMOS cameras so far and never had any issues (one of which had the same sensor as ASI120 but was QHY model).

Color cameras are just a bit less sensitive than mono, but it really makes no difference to guiding. I'm using one with OAG at 1600mm of FL and it still works and I can always find suitable guide star.

[Jm1973]

30 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Sure, I've only guided with color CMOS cameras so far and never had any issues (one of which had the same sensor as ASI120 but was QHY model).

Color cameras are just a bit less sensitive than mono, but it really makes no difference to guiding. I'm using one with OAG at 1600mm of FL and it still works and I can always find suitable guide star.

Great. That is good to know. I'd rather get a colour for now so I can do a bit of planetary without having to buy filters etc.

 

 

[nephilim]

32 minutes ago, Jm1973 said:

Yeah. I bought this setup for visual initially but now I want to image. So far I am able to image ok.. at least I haven;t butted up against anything insurmountable yet. I imagine at some point I will need to change scope, but so far it's working for me.

I was the same mate. I'd been interested in astronomy since I was a kid but back then scopes were way out of my price range. I kept the interest but only bought my first scope around 9yrs ago (Skywatcher 130m) when I saw how much prices had dropped. I then joined SGL (thats when I started headlong down that slippery slope 😂) & ended up buying the HQ5/ 200p & THEN decided I wanted to get into AP, at the time I couldn't afford kit that would be ideal for it so made do with what I had (You can do AP with it but its just so much harder to get anything half decent as your always fighting with the size of the scope & the limited tracking ability with the mount & added motors) I had some success with Jupiter, Saturn & the Moon (I modified an Xbox camera I bought off ebay for £4, removed the lens filter & bodged together an adapter to fit the scope 😂) but even that was harder than it should be) But its DSO's & star clusters that i'm really interested in imaging.

In the end a mixture of not enough time, too much faffing about & crappy uk weather put me off entirely & I gave it all up. Now, 4yrs later i'm able to buy the sort of kit I should have bought last time around. I've been buying a couple of things every month (I hate using credit cards so ive just saved up) & all thats left to get is the main scope which will be next month (WO GT81 IV Triplet) & the main camera (ZWO ASI 533MC-Pro) in January. After that I know ive a massive learning curve ahead of me but at least i'll have the proper kit which'll make it not quite as difficult as last time, but not far off 😬

Steve

[Jm1973]

6 hours ago, nephilim said:

I was the same mate. I'd been interested in astronomy since I was a kid but back then scopes were way out of my price range. I kept the interest but only bought my first scope around 9yrs ago (Skywatcher 130m) when I saw how much prices had dropped. I then joined SGL (thats when I started headlong down that slippery slope 😂) & ended up buying the HQ5/ 200p & THEN decided I wanted to get into AP, at the time I couldn't afford kit that would be ideal for it so made do with what I had (You can do AP with it but its just so much harder to get anything half decent as your always fighting with the size of the scope & the limited tracking ability with the mount & added motors) I had some success with Jupiter, Saturn & the Moon (I modified an Xbox camera I bought off ebay for £4, removed the lens filter & bodged together an adapter to fit the scope 😂) but even that was harder than it should be) But its DSO's & star clusters that i'm really interested in imaging.

In the end a mixture of not enough time, too much faffing about & crappy uk weather put me off entirely & I gave it all up. Now, 4yrs later i'm able to buy the sort of kit I should have bought last time around. I've been buying a couple of things every month (I hate using credit cards so ive just saved up) & all thats left to get is the main scope which will be next month (WO GT81 IV Triplet) & the main camera (ZWO ASI 533MC-Pro) in January. After that I know ive a massive learning curve ahead of me but at least i'll have the proper kit which'll make it not quite as difficult as last time, but not far off 😬

Steve

Yeah, I'm all about the DSOs too. I'm a bit annoyed because I spent about 150 quid a month ago on some EPs as I liked planets at the time, but shortly after I got bitten by the DSO bug.  Waste of money as I haven't even used an EP since. I just stick my DSLR on the telescope and away I go. The only reason I mentioned using this camera for planetary is my other half has mentioned getting some photos of the conjunction in December, and if I say this will do the job, I'm going to get less grief for buying it, lol.

I'm going to need to get some kind of filter too soon I imagine, as my photos are practically clipping the white end of the histogram after even 2 minutes due to LP.  So my photos are pretty noisy. But using filters will require longer exposures, so I thought I get the guide camera first and get used to that. I am ok getting the brighter DSOs with my current setup, but less bright ones I've had trouble getting enough data to pull much out of it. Still I've managed to get a few images that I like, over the last month or so. It's just a shame the weather is so rubbish. 

 

 

 

 

[nephilim]

2 hours ago, Jm1973 said:

Yeah, I'm all about the DSOs too. I'm a bit annoyed because I spent about 150 quid a month ago on some EPs as I liked planets at the time, but shortly after I got bitten by the DSO bug.  Waste of money as I haven't even used an EP since. I just stick my DSLR on the telescope and away I go. The only reason I mentioned using this camera for planetary is my other half has mentioned getting some photos of the conjunction in December, and if I say this will do the job, I'm going to get less grief for buying it, lol.

I'm going to need to get some kind of filter too soon I imagine, as my photos are practically clipping the white end of the histogram after even 2 minutes due to LP.  So my photos are pretty noisy. But using filters will require longer exposures, so I thought I get the guide camera first and get used to that. I am ok getting the brighter DSOs with my current setup, but less bright ones I've had trouble getting enough data to pull much out of it. Still I've managed to get a few images that I like, over the last month or so. It's just a shame the weather is so rubbish. 

 

 

 

 

Nice one, i'd be pleased with those images.

I'm pretty lucky that I live in the middle of nowhere & have no light pollution whatsoever. I will be getting the Optolong L-eXtreme Dual Band Narrowband Filter though. Its one of the best LP filters on the market & cuts out 100% of all unnatural light plus moonlight (It always seems to be totally clear when the moons out which is typical) It only lets in Ha & Olll & has a very narrow bandpass of 7nm. Its bloody expensive though at £239 for the 2"dedicated camera version (its the same price for the clip in DSLR one as well) but I think its more than worth it for the extra nights imaging you'll get from using it.

Good idea saying the camera will be good for the conjunction 😂😂 My ex used to give me loads of grief for buying gear, she'd have a meltdown if we were still together now, getting the right gear for AP has cost me just over £1900 in the last 2 months & i've nearly another 3K that needs spending before i'm up & running so its a pretty good job i'm single now 😃 This hobby is far from cheap. I'm also into mountain biking so i'm pretty much skint all the time 😂

 

[Jm1973]

20 hours ago, nephilim said:

Nice one, i'd be pleased with those images.

I'm pretty lucky that I live in the middle of nowhere & have no light pollution whatsoever. I will be getting the Optolong L-eXtreme Dual Band Narrowband Filter though. Its one of the best LP filters on the market & cuts out 100% of all unnatural light plus moonlight (It always seems to be totally clear when the moons out which is typical) It only lets in Ha & Olll & has a very narrow bandpass of 7nm. Its bloody expensive though at £239 for the 2"dedicated camera version (its the same price for the clip in DSLR one as well) but I think its more than worth it for the extra nights imaging you'll get from using it.

Good idea saying the camera will be good for the conjunction 😂😂 My ex used to give me loads of grief for buying gear, she'd have a meltdown if we were still together now, getting the right gear for AP has cost me just over £1900 in the last 2 months & i've nearly another 3K that needs spending before i'm up & running so its a pretty good job i'm single now 😃 This hobby is far from cheap. I'm also into mountain biking so i'm pretty much skint all the time 😂

 

My other half isn't too bad about it really.  She is used to me having hobbies. I started building drones a few years back after buying a toy one, and I spent about 3 grand in a few months. Then I got into speedcubing and starting importing cubes from China to see several hundred at a time to sell - I've still got half of them in the attic now.  Then after a lifetime of just having one aftershave that lasted me forever, I got into aftershaves and spent a fortune on that. I can make a hobby out of any old nonsense. She kind of approves of this as it keeps me out of trouble, but we've got a young daughter and mortgage now, and she quit her job to be a full-time mum, so I don't have the kind of disposable income I used to have to indulge myself with - which is frustrating. Especially as this hobby is a real money sink.

 

The l-extreme sounds interesting though. My LP isn't completely terrible, but the idea of being able to get good images during the full moon is good. The iomages above were from when the moon was pretty full, and I had a hell of a job removing the LP after stacking. Would be good to not have to. Only thing is, as I use an un-modded DSLR I'm not sure whether I'd get much out of it. I guess if I got the subs long enough I would...

 

[Jm1973]

This is the only duo narrowband clip in filter I've been able to find for my Nikon APS-C:

https://www.cliftoncameras.co.uk/stc-clip-astro-duo-nb-filter/brand-fitting/nikon-aps-c

I'm trying to find some technical details for it, as there is nothing on the website...

[nephilim]

5 hours ago, Jm1973 said:

This is the only duo narrowband clip in filter I've been able to find for my Nikon APS-C:

https://www.cliftoncameras.co.uk/stc-clip-astro-duo-nb-filter/brand-fitting/nikon-aps-c

I'm trying to find some technical details for it, as there is nothing on the website...

Hi mate,
I didn't realise you were using a Nikon (That shouldnt be a problem though). This is where i'll be getting mine from https://www.firstlightoptics.com/optolong-filters/optolong-dual-band-l-extreme-filter.html   If you haven't used them already I highly recommend them, i've been using them for years & they've never let me down. I'd email them & explain your using an unmodified Nikon & ask which filter you'll need (i'm sure its the 2" clip in) Ive been buying quite a few bits over the last couple of months & asking a fair few questions & they've always answered by the next day.
Have you thought about getting your camera modded? I know that a lot of places that mod cameras dont do Nikon as they cant shoot a true RAW image ( something to do with them still running dust & scratches filters when the camera is 'supposed' to be in RAW mode)

Ive started 'following you' on here (not like a stalker though 😂) so its easier to keep in touch. Its good to be in contact with someone at a similar stage to me although you've actually started taking photos 😃 Ive still got to save for the main scope & camera but now i've got the guiding gear ( Skywatcher Evoguide 50ED & ZWO ASI 120MM-S) I can do a bit of lunar imagining with Sharpcap & if I get a 3x Powermate i'll be able to do a bit of planetary, that way I can start getting used to using all the apps. 

I'll be using NINA as my main capture software (Framing, focus, platesolving & image sequencing etc) which ive never used before. I'm also using ASCOM for the first time (to control my mount, camera etc) so ive no doubt i'll be spending a fair bit of time banging my head against a wall as its guaranteed nothing will work first time around 😬😂 Let me know how you get on regarding the filter, you could always ask on here as well.

[Jm1973]

17 hours ago, nephilim said:

Hi mate,
I didn't realise you were using a Nikon (That shouldnt be a problem though). This is where i'll be getting mine from https://www.firstlightoptics.com/optolong-filters/optolong-dual-band-l-extreme-filter.html   If you haven't used them already I highly recommend them, i've been using them for years & they've never let me down. I'd email them & explain your using an unmodified Nikon & ask which filter you'll need (i'm sure its the 2" clip in) Ive been buying quite a few bits over the last couple of months & asking a fair few questions & they've always answered by the next day.
Have you thought about getting your camera modded? I know that a lot of places that mod cameras dont do Nikon as they cant shoot a true RAW image ( something to do with them still running dust & scratches filters when the camera is 'supposed' to be in RAW mode)

Ive started 'following you' on here (not like a stalker though 😂) so its easier to keep in touch. Its good to be in contact with someone at a similar stage to me although you've actually started taking photos 😃 Ive still got to save for the main scope & camera but now i've got the guiding gear ( Skywatcher Evoguide 50ED & ZWO ASI 120MM-S) I can do a bit of lunar imagining with Sharpcap & if I get a 3x Powermate i'll be able to do a bit of planetary, that way I can start getting used to using all the apps. 

I'll be using NINA as my main capture software (Framing, focus, platesolving & image sequencing etc) which ive never used before. I'm also using ASCOM for the first time (to control my mount, camera etc) so ive no doubt i'll be spending a fair bit of time banging my head against a wall as its guaranteed nothing will work first time around 😬😂 Let me know how you get on regarding the filter, you could always ask on here as well.

For some reason, there seem to be hardly any clip-in filters available for Nikon APS-C DSLRs. Also, the model I've got doesn't seem to be supported by many software platforms at all. Although there is an ASCOM driver for DSLRs which has recently added support for the D3300. I haven't got it working perfectly, but I have got it working well enough that I can use the Polar Alignment tool in SharpCap - which is, by the way, the best thing ever. I can now polar align near perfectly in about ten minutes. I can easily get 2 minute subs without trails, and if the weather ever stops being awful I'll see if I can get them any longer.

If I can help at all with anything let me know. I've got NINA, but it kept crashing when I tried to use the ASCOM driver with my camera, so I gave up on it. SharpCap also crashes a lot, but only right at the beginning when the driver is loading. Once it manages to load, usually on the third or fourth attempt, then it works ok. I use Astrotortilla to plate-solve, which works pretty well. I followed the guide on LightVortexAstronomy, which got me 90% iof the way there, and just kind of trial end errored and googled a bit till I found out the rest. Now it usually solves in under 30 seconds which is great for me.

I use ASCOM and EQMOD to control my mount, so I've got that down if you need any help with that side of things. 

 

My software setup is this:

EQMOD/ASCOM to control mount.

Sharpcap to PA.

Stellarium to find and slew to target.

AstroTortilla to platesolve (I don't bother with 3 star alignments anymore).

DigiCamControl to take subs. (as it's the only software that reliably works with the D3300).

Then APP to stack, remove LP, etc. PS to finish off.

I'm pretty basic with processing. If I had more data I would practise more, but you can only re-process the same half dozen sets of data so many times.

I'm rambling a bit now.. where was I going with this?

 

Oh yeah.. I think buying a Nikon APS-C was a mistake. There is hardly any software or hardware that is compatible with it.

I am seriously tempted to but a cheap canon like the 450D, modify it, and use that instead, as it will work with the likes of NINA, APT etc. has (apparently) better response to red, more filters that will fit it, and I can pick one up for about 60 quid. Although I will check out FLO.

 

Last night I came across a shop called CyclopsOptics which is very cheap, and seems to be based in Hong Kong. Not sure how reliable they are though, but the filter I posted earlier which is £305 over here in multiple places, sells for about £220 with free delivery on their site.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Jm1973

[nephilim]

Just while I remember, be careful ordering from outside the EU (and this will also be the case when we foolishly leave😒) Astronomy gear carries a pretty high import tax, its something like 20% VAT plus import duty & then an admin charge from the courier. You'll normally be contacted by the courier (Royal Mail, DHL etc) , but it can happen when it gets delivered to your door (nasty shock) They can also overlook it by mistake but I wouldnt bank on it. It can end up costing more than from the EU or UK.

If I were you i'd sell the Nikon & buy a Canon, Nikkon are rubbish when it comes to opening up their code to outside developers (bit like Apple) so there's not much astro stuff that'll work with it. Astronomisor do new & second hand modified cameras & also they'll modify your camera at a pretty good price & after the mod the red colour in nebula etc is really apparent. http://www.astronomiser.co.uk/

Cheers for the offer of help if I get stuck, i'm sure i'll be taking you up on it at some point. My mount wont work with EQMOD ( ive got the Explore Scientific EXOS 2 PMC 8 GOTO)  I think thats only for Skywatcher & Celestron,  but i've downloaded ASCOM Platform to my dedicated Astro laptop & my mount has a ASCOM driver which i'll use with Stellarium for control, DSS for stacking as i've used it before & i'm pretty familiar with it, Sharpcap for PA, ive used this before for planetary imaging a few years ago but they have miles more stuff on there now. I'll use NINA for the actual image capture (lights, darks, flats, bias) framing, focus, platesolving-with ASTAP, I'll also be using this instead of a 3 star align)

I know the basics when it comes to processing but i'm really rusty. Ive just bought Steve Richards book 'Dark Art or Magic Bullet' as i'll be using Photoshop. He wrote 'Making Every Photon Count' which I still think is the best amateur astrophotography guide out there.

Theres just so much to bloody learn 😬 I'm still on furlough at the moment though until at least early next year & recently single so i've loads of spare time to get it all hopefully working. I'll keep you up to date on how im doing.

[Jm1973]

23 minutes ago, nephilim said:

Just while I remember, be careful ordering from outside the EU (and this will also be the case when we foolishly leave😒) Astronomy gear carries a pretty high import tax, its something like 20% VAT plus import duty & then an admin charge from the courier. You'll normally be contacted by the courier (Royal Mail, DHL etc) , but it can happen when it gets delivered to your door (nasty shock) They can also overlook it by mistake but I wouldnt bank on it. It can end up costing more than from the EU or UK.

If I were you i'd sell the Nikon & buy a Canon, Nikkon are rubbish when it comes to opening up their code to outside developers (bit like Apple) so there's not much astro stuff that'll work with it. Astronomisor do new & second hand modified cameras & also they'll modify your camera at a pretty good price & after the mod the red colour in nebula etc is really apparent. http://www.astronomiser.co.uk/

Cheers for the offer of help if I get stuck, i'm sure i'll be taking you up on it at some point. My mount wont work with EQMOD ( ive got the Explore Scientific EXOS 2 PMC 8 GOTO)  I think thats only for Skywatcher & Celestron,  but i've downloaded ASCOM Platform to my dedicated Astro laptop & my mount has a ASCOM driver which i'll use with Stellarium for control, DSS for stacking as i've used it before & i'm pretty familiar with it, Sharpcap for PA, ive used this before for planetary imaging a few years ago but they have miles more stuff on there now. I'll use NINA for the actual image capture (lights, darks, flats, bias) framing, focus, platesolving-with ASTAP, I'll also be using this instead of a 3 star align)

I know the basics when it comes to processing but i'm really rusty. Ive just bought Steve Richards book 'Dark Art or Magic Bullet' as i'll be using Photoshop. He wrote 'Making Every Photon Count' which I still think is the best amateur astrophotography guide out there.

Theres just so much to bloody learn 😬 I'm still on furlough at the moment though until at least early next year & recently single so i've loads of spare time to get it all hopefully working. I'll keep you up to date on how im doing.

Ah, I thought the prices might be too good to be true.  With the import tax will probably be about the same. NOt worth it if that's the case.

I can't really sell the Nikon as it's our 'family camera' so to speak, which is why I woudln't really want to get it modded either. I'll probably try to pick up a cheap Canon and go from there. Thanks for ther heads up about astronomiser.

I've got APP mainly for the light pollution removal tool, which is amazing. I am doing most of the post porcessing in Photoshop as well, so I may be coming to you for tips. I'm ok on curves and levels and whatnot, and I know basic masks. But more complex stuff like star masks etc. are a bit baffling to me at the moment. I am relying on action tooslsets to get me through stuff like that. I probably need to buy a book, or do a course or something.

Enjoy your free time while you've got it mate!

 

 

 

[nephilim]

1 hour ago, Jm1973 said:

Ah, I thought the prices might be too good to be true.  With the import tax will probably be about the same. NOt worth it if that's the case.

I can't really sell the Nikon as it's our 'family camera' so to speak, which is why I woudln't really want to get it modded either. I'll probably try to pick up a cheap Canon and go from there. Thanks for ther heads up about astronomiser.

I've got APP mainly for the light pollution removal tool, which is amazing. I am doing most of the post porcessing in Photoshop as well, so I may be coming to you for tips. I'm ok on curves and levels and whatnot, and I know basic masks. But more complex stuff like star masks etc. are a bit baffling to me at the moment. I am relying on action tooslsets to get me through stuff like that. I probably need to buy a book, or do a course or something.

Enjoy your free time while you've got it mate!

 

 

 

The book I mentioned early 'Dark Art or Magic Bullet' has everything in it regarding processing but I'm happy to help with whatever I can even if I just photograph any page from the book that u need info on. Here's the link https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/dark-art-or-magic-bullet-steve-richards.html  here's a random page from the book