SGP - end of an era?

[Geordie mc]

Just had an email from SGP saying that a subscription model for payments is now here. I had already started to move towards N.I.N.A. and I think this will make that move my preferred option. What do others think? I hate subscription models for payment and now that there is a great free alternative I think they might lose a lot of users. I’d have paid £10 or so each year but £50 is way too much for me. I get the impression that maybe they are not getting many new buyers and need to generate funds from existing users. Could this be the end for SGP? 

[Kinch]

7 minutes ago, Geordie mc said:

Could this be the end for SGP? 

Not for this user. I have paid for SGP and I can use what I have paid for until I 'keel over'. There is no need to pay a subscription if there is nothing new in SGP that you do not wish to use. The version you have now is supported forever. 

[Adreneline]

32 minutes ago, Kinch said:

I can use what I have paid for until I 'keel over'.

Well I sincerely hope that's not any time soon! We need to keep being inspired by your images!

[discardedastro]

53 minutes ago, Geordie mc said:

Just had an email from SGP saying that a subscription model for payments is now here. I had already started to move towards N.I.N.A. and I think this will make that move my preferred option. What do others think? I hate subscription models for payment and now that there is a great free alternative I think they might lose a lot of users. I’d have paid £10 or so each year but £50 is way too much for me. I get the impression that maybe they are not getting many new buyers and need to generate funds from existing users. Could this be the end for SGP? 

I will say that I used SGP when I was starting out, and moved to KStars/INDI about a month after, and haven't touched it since.

It's pretty powerful software, but people are increasingly moving away from the monolithic ASCOM-centric world of Windows PCs next to telescopes for imaging applications, so I'm sure that's detracted somewhat from their userbase. The range of open source software aside from KStars/INDI is ever-expanding, too, and is functionally nearly as capable. SGP is definitely power-user software, but for a niche.

I do think the subscription model is a great way to ensure software gets ongoing support, especially for software with pretty small userbases like most AP software is; I've been a FOSS maintainer for over a decade and motivation to carry on maintaining software is a big issue. For commercial devs I'm sure it's the same. At the end of the day if you rely solely on the number of incoming new astrophotographers willing to drop cash on software for your ongoing revenue stream, that's going to be a struggle.

£50 is a bit steep, I'd agree, especially given the high cost of entry. £50 a year only would be OK for good software - consider it in the general scope of costs one typically incurs in maintaining, upgrading telescopes etc. But it's £50 a year plus £100+ to start, which is starting to get to serious money. If we were talking £50 plus £20 a year or something, that'd be fair enough. I guess they figure there's enough power users who want SGP...

[Kinch]

23 minutes ago, Adreneline said:

Well I sincerely hope that's not any time soon!

I hope the same.....but I have my own reasons 🤣

[Kinch]

33 minutes ago, discardedastro said:

But it's £50 a year plus £100+ to start

I disagree. I think people are getting this wrong - or if I have it wrong, then I am quite happy to be corrected.

I bought SGP many years ago and have not paid them anything for the software in ....I don't know when. Perhaps in the middle of 2021 they bring out a major enhancement - say, controlling two scopes on one mount. If by that time I feel I need that enhancement, then I can pay a subscription and upgrade. (If I don't need that particular upgrade - then I won't pay out any money....my SGP continues to work as it is now). If I did pay for that 'upgrade' then that payment brings me any further upgrades and personalised assistance for 1 year (to mid 2022). If at that point, I decide not to pay a subscription again....then my SGP continues to work at the level where my subscription has expired. (N.B. We are all at 'Subscription Expired level now....i.e. no further upgrades until we pay a subscription).

Following from the above....I am working away at the end of 2022 and they bring out another big upgrade - supporting 3 scopes on the mount....and I really want that. Then, my expired subscription (since mid 2022) can now be updated with a new subscription....that will last until the end of 2023.

The subscription is NOT yearly....it is only required when YOU need to get new features from a new updated version of the software. Like I said in my last post...if I don't need any new features...I can continue using the version I have now without ever having to pay any subscription.

At least....that is how I have read what the DEVS have said...

Edited September 21, 2020 by Kinch
dates

[discardedastro]

1 minute ago, Kinch said:

Following from the above....I am working away at the end of 2021 and they bring out another big upgrade - supporting 3 scopes on the mount....and I really want that. Then, my expired subscription (since mid 2021) can now be updated with a new subscription....that will last until the end of 2022.

My initial reading of it was that 3.x is the last "permanently licensed" version, and once you're on a subscription you're then obligated to keep that running.

However, down near the bottom:  "When your subscription expires, you will be able to use the most recent version of SGPro at the time of expiry." So I'm wrong on that 🙂 

I'd almost go so far as to say that this isn't a subscription model - it's a pay-per-upgrade model.

That's fine when it comes to feature gating - but the issue with this model always comes down to support. If something breaks or you find a bug in 4.0, but 4.1 is already out, will they go back and fix 4.0? If so, this creates a huge amount of extra work - they now have to fix every prior version and do new releases for them all, etc. If they don't, then your only way to fix a bug is to pay the upgrade cost and get back on the "most recent" train to receive the bugfix update. The most cost-concsious development shops will refuse to do support for old versions and only deal with support queries on the latest - which does rather play into "just paying for support" as noted above.

[Kinch]

36 minutes ago, discardedastro said:

they now have to fix every prior version and do new releases for them all, etc. If they don't, then your only way to fix a bug is to pay the upgrade cost and get back on the "most recent" train to receive the bugfix update.

This is from Jared..." Most of the changes do not go into affect until SGP4 is released. You will always get SGP3 updates at no cost or subscription for life.". 

If it is an actual BUG in the software - I have every confidence they will fix that too.....they have left that last one run long enough to find any of those bugs by now.

If you are not on SGP3 but on SGP4 (having paid a subscription)....then YOU have a full year to figure out if anything in the software is a bug for you/your system. 

Overall......I think they have done a good job in ensuring that they continue to receive remuneration for their ongoing work on the software - but we also get value for money.

 

EDIT: Just adding from the SGP website (and remember a 'subscription' will be "active" for a year)

Note that after purchase of SGPro, a subscription is NOT required in order to continue using it. The subscription entitles you to future updates and premium support, but, even if you decide let your subscription lapse, you will always be able to use some version of SGPro (specifically, you will be entitled to install and use the most recent version of SGPro that existed during you subscription's "active" period).

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Kinch
Additional info

[Geordie mc]

From my reading of the new model - which SGP themselves say is a subscription based model - you will be billed annually unless you don’t buy into the new model. As soon as you fail to pay your subscription you lose “premium support” whatever that is. They may decide to keep working on past versions, but v4 is due out soon and I suspect v2.7 users like myself will see little or nothing in the way of development. 
my point really is that if they need to raise cash this method is unlikely to work long term. Existing users may well decide it works as is and therefore won’t subscribe. Newcomers will try free software first like N.I.N.A. Or APT, find it works well and have no reason to buy into the SGP model. On that basis they will raise only a small amount now and put people off in the future, raising little new revenue. 
I hope SGP continues. There are lots of satisfied users who would lose out if it all goes under. I just think they’ve gone about this all wrong. If they’d said £10-15 a year gets you continued updates and access to new versions, even though I hate subscriptions, I would have paid it because there might have been times I wanted, or needed to use it. But at £50 a year I will not be subscribing. I expect quite a few others won’t, or can’t pay that fee. Unfortunately for SGP there are now very good alternatives that are free, regularly updated and don’t involve  any hassle with changes to accounts and new liscence keys etc. which are already causing issues according to many on the SGP forum. 
if someone was getting into imaging and asked for a recommendation for capture software I’d point them to APT or N.I.NA. Why would I recommend SGP which is expensive and will have ongoing costs for them? 
That’s before we even mention none PC based platforms which are also set to improve and lure both existing and new Astro imagers down a different route. 
I hope SGP make o go of things, but I fear this marks the start of its decline. Let’s hope I’m wrong.

[discardedastro]

9 hours ago, Kinch said:

Overall......I think they have done a good job in ensuring that they continue to receive remuneration for their ongoing work on the software - but we also get value for money.

I sort of agree. Moving to a pay-for-upgrades subscription model will help, but I think they should reduce the cost and make it a flat subscription model (i.e. stay subscribed or you can't use it) to use all new versions.

That actually encourages everyone to be on the latest version, means your users all benefit each other by running and reporting issues on the most recent version (rather than having your feedback come in for a dozen or more old versions, many of which won't be supported), and means there's only one version to improve, fix, develop, etc. It's also liable to bring in an actual consistent and dependable revenue stream rather than lots of stop-start sort-of-subscriptions from end users.

Making it a true subscription model is much more sustainable, and would allow for a lower cost per user.

[Kinch]

1 hour ago, discardedastro said:

but I think they should reduce the cost and make it a flat subscription model

Personally I would not mind that (if it was VERY cheap) but there are those that just will not pay subscription at any price......I see a post in a  short while ago (to SGP forum) saying that very thing.

Old saying....." You can't please all of the people all of the time". No matter what they do....there is bound to be someone complaining. On my understanding of how they are going forward.....I think they have chosen a good model. The software has been stable for me for a long time and when/if I subscribe to any additional functionality of an update package - it is purely my choice depending on what they are offering.  These updates will be few and far between - not like it has been in the past few years and with that in mind I really don't see them abondoning anyone who is not on the VERY latest as those without subscription will all be on the latest V2 or V3 (where any bugs reported will be removed).