Unsure of next steps!

[djdurance]

Greetings!
First post here! I’m just getting back into astronomy after loving this as a little boy. All we had growing up was a 10x60mm binoculars… But I loved it!
A month ago, I bought a Celestron 70mm telescope for £70. The tripod was just so terrible that I returned it. I stopped by my local astronomy store and was sold a SkyWatcher Maksutov Cassegrain 90 EQ1 http://skywatcher.co...t/bk-mak90-eq1/. Our first few nights were amazing! Jupiter, Saturn, Moon… all fantastic. Portability is key as we want to be able to take this with us on our travels. This is one of the reasons that I purchased this scope. When I bought this, I NEVER would have expected to be taking pictures.

Well… As you expect within the month, I realized that when you are having fun you actually want to capture it! I purchased a Canon 450D and a 50mm f1.8 lens off eBay for super cheap (£80!) and started to take some shots of the sky using the 50mm lens and a bit with the telescope. I realized very quickly that telescope I bought, which is a slow F13, is not well suited to connecting a camera. I am primarily interested in improving my shots of the deep sky objects (but do enjoy the plants from time to time!). Portability and simplicity is key. I’m finishing my PhD while working fulltime and have a family… so things need to be quick! Right now, I’m basically using the Canon 450D w/ the 50mm lens and taking 5s exposure shots and stacking them. I have not put together a more than 150 shots at a time so I really haven’t seen what this setup can do.
Here is my question. I have £200 to spend this year and likely the same for the next few years (got to feed the kids!!). So… What would you recommend as next step? I’ve thought of a few options:

Tracking Mount? If so, portable and low budget recommendation? Would this make a difference in capturing detail with just the 50mm lens that I have? Is there a portable option that would do the telescope as well (which weighs in a ~1.4 KG)? Or should I just pass on taking shots through my SkyWatcher and focus on the camera?
OR
New lens for the DSLR? I was thinking of a 55-200mm lens that can be bought used for £50-60.
OR
New Telescope with a faster setup?

Thank you for your input as I try and get started on a tight budget!

[dannybgoode]

£200 isn't going to get you very far if you want to photograph deep space objects and a 50mm lens isn't going to get you much in the way of them either.  A 200mm lens isn't going to be much good for them either but may help with some of the much larger DSO's (M31 and M42 spring to mind) but then you'd need a tracking mount.

For DSO's the starting point is the mount but then the issue is budget again.  £200 will not buy a tracking mount that is capable of carrying much more than a camera with a small lens.  This is about the minimum you would need to photograph DSO's with just a dSLR

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-star-adventurer/skywatcher-star-adventurer-mini-sam-wifi-astro-imaging-mount-bundle.html assuming you already have a tripod for the camera.  If not you would need to factor in a sturdy one as well.

You might get a but more for your money second hand but not a great deal.  It is all a bit chicken and egg but ultimately you need the mount most of all and then a lens or scope capable of resolving DSO's.  I would suggest getting a copy of Making Ever Photon Count though and have a read through that to get some idea of what you need to commit to and where to best spend your money but I fear the budget is going to have to be quite a lot higher to get much out of AP.

[ollypenrice]

Wide field at low resolution makes fewer demands on tracking precision than the contrary. Some deep sky objects are, in fact, so large that they are rarely photographed at all. This is a famous image taken with the Canon 'nifty fifty ' lens. 

http://sguisard.astrosurf.com/Pagim/Orion_constellation-HRVB-50mm.html

Barnard's loop and the Meissa Nebula are DS objects but how often to you see them? The cnsiderable skills needed to make an image like this can be learned on data like these.

Olly

 

[dannybgoode]

54 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

This is a famous image taken with the Canon 'nifty fifty ' lens. 

That's a stunning image although I suspect the rest of the kit used to partner the 'nifty' was a shade over the OP's £200 budget  

[djdurance]

Thank you all, very much for the input. I think I'm going to put money into a mount first. This is going to stretch the budget... but I think that this is worth it for now. Looks like I can get into something for 300 GBP and I'm looking at either:

a) SkyWatcher Adventure Pro Pack https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-star-adventurer-pro-pack.html

OR

b) SkyWatcher AZ-GTi https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-az-gti-wifi-mount-tripod.html

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-equatorial-wedge-for-star-adventurer.html

Both of these can handle my current camera and lens and my current scope (and the one below). Not sure which one to choose... but I think these both are portable and simple to use.

Next year - I think I will look at getting something like this rather than getting a longer standard camera lens...

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/william-optics/william-optics-zenithstar-61-ii-apo.html

I might need to hold off for a while then but would like to get a planetary camera along the way as well. All told this looks like about 800 GBP of equipment in the next two/three years. 

EDIT: Oh... one more thing I might to do the interim if I can't get the new mount.... Not sure how this compares in usuabiliy to the Pro Pack roor the AZ-GTi: https://www.rotherva...ed-handset.html

Edited August 14, 2020 by djdurance

[djdurance]

Okay... I'm just pulling the trigger this week on a portable mount. I'm trying to decide between the AZ-GTI GOTO with EQ Mount and the Skywaycher Star Adventurer Pro... I'm somewhat confused about which would give more accurate tracking? Again I'm dealing with sub 400mm lenses and under 5kg so this should be good enough. I can do both of these for mid £200 range. 

I love the idea of the GoTo mount as this would work well for my small Mak scope as well. However, I'm concerned that this is less capable of tracking. One of the challenges I have is that from my backyard there is ZERO view of Polaris! Not sure how to manage this. ☹️ Any thought between these two options based on  my setup? I'm asking for a Skywaycher 72ed for Christmas as well....

[Seelive]

The AZ-GTI mount is an Alt-azimuth mount which is OK for visual use with a scope, but imaging will suffer from field rotation.  On the other hand the star adventurer is designed primarily for imaging with a camera (but could be used with a small scope with the bracket and counterweights) and I believe it uses a 180 tooth worm gear to give accurate tracking so with good polar alignment reasonable exposures could be achieved. But if you can't see polaris ... ?

[djdurance]

Yeah. This is a delema! I was thinking that I would add in the EQ Mount to the AZ GTi... But perhaps this is still not enough. 

[szymon]

18 minutes ago, Seelive said:

The AZ-GTI mount is an Alt-azimuth mount which is OK for visual use with a scope, but imaging will suffer from field rotation.  On the other hand the star adventurer is designed primarily for imaging with a camera (but could be used with a small scope with the bracket and counterweights) and I believe it uses a 180 tooth worm gear to give accurate tracking so with good polar alignment reasonable exposures could be achieved. But if you can't see polaris ... ?

The AZ-GTi mount has firmware which, in conjunction with a suitable wedge, allows it to be used in EQ mode, thus making it suitable for imaging.  It's like a Star Adventurer with Goto, which can do pulse guiding (in both axes).  It's pretty awesome.

[Seelive]

I don't know if that is possible.  The goto system is presumably programmed for alt-az operation.  I'm not sure what would happen if you attached it to an equatorial head. See if you can download the instruction manual from the Skywatcher web site and see if it mentions anything about using it in an equatorial mode.

The advantage of that mount is wouldn't need to see Polaris to align it.

[szymon]

5 minutes ago, Seelive said:

I don't know if that is possible.  The goto system is presumably programmed for alt-az operation.  I'm not sure what would happen if you attached it to an equatorial head. See if you can download the instruction manual from the Skywatcher web site and see if it mentions anything about using it in an equatorial mode.

The advantage of that mount is wouldn't need to see Polaris to align it.

I just said that it's possible.  You flash the firmware, and when you connect to the mount you get a choice of running in alt-az or eq mode -- in EQ mode the goto system is programmed (funnily enough) for EQ operation.  The firmware is regularly updated (last update a couple of weeks ago) and has release notes.  It works very well.

[johninderby]

Download to enable EQ mode.

http://skywatcher.com/download/software/motor-control-firmware/

Firmware: AZGTi Mount, Right Arm, AZ/EQ Dual Mode, Version 3.22

This firmware is for mounting a telescope on the right side of the AZ-GTi(or AZ-GTe) mounts when the telescope is pointing forwards. Warning: Please note that the AZ-GTi ( or Az-GTe) mount is not intended for astrophotography. In this firmware version, we enable the option to operate the mount in equatorial mode for experienced customers who want to explore the full potential of the AZ-GTi (or AZ-GTe) mounts and have fun. Performance for astrophotography is not guaranteed and average customer might experience challenges in obtaining the result that they expected.

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by johninderby

[szymon]

2 hours ago, djdurance said:

Okay... I'm just pulling the trigger this week on a portable mount. I'm trying to decide between the AZ-GTI GOTO with EQ Mount and the Skywaycher Star Adventurer Pro... I'm somewhat confused about which would give more accurate tracking? Again I'm dealing with sub 400mm lenses and under 5kg so this should be good enough. I can do both of these for mid £200 range. 

I love the idea of the GoTo mount as this would work well for my small Mak scope as well. However, I'm concerned that this is less capable of tracking. One of the challenges I have is that from my backyard there is ZERO view of Polaris! Not sure how to manage this. ☹️ Any thought between these two options based on  my setup? I'm asking for a Skywaycher 72ed for Christmas as well....

I've had both mounts -- the Star Adventurer and the AZ-GTi.  The AZ-GTi in EQ mode is like the Star Adventurer on steroids.  Goto is a game changer.  It doesn't have a polar scope, but you can polar align using software (I use Sharpcap -- if you can't see within a few degrees of Polaris, you could try drift alignment using PHD2 or NINA's PA routine).  The tracking by itself is basically identical to the Star Adventurer -- more than sufficient unguided for relatively long exposures using an SLR.  However, guiding the mount I've been getting about 1.1" RMS, so it's clearly superior to the SA.  Frankly I can't believe how much better this mount is than the SA.  The only real downside of it is that you have to make your own counterweight.  I bought an M12 threaded rod from B&Q, a couple of nuts and washers and a bunch of scrap metal, and it works fine but is pretty ugly.  I might order a 'real' counterweight shaft from somewhere.  Other than that, I've been very impressed so far.  Go for the AZ-GTi, you'll regret not having done so.

[Seelive]

15 minutes ago, szymon said:

I just said that it's possible.  You flash the firmware, and when you connect to the mount you get a choice of running in alt-az or eq mode -- in EQ mode the goto system is programmed (funnily enough) for EQ operation.  The firmware is regularly updated (last update a couple of weeks ago) and has release notes.  It works very well.

Our posts crossed, I hadn't seen your post until mine was submitted.

[szymon]

Just now, Seelive said:

Our posts crossed, I hadn't seen your post until mine was submitted.

Apologies, I just re-read my reply to you and it seems quite attacking -- not intentionally!  Hard day at work and now I have clouds, which I clearly took out on you - sorry 🙂 

[djdurance]

Thanks both. This is helpful. To clarify with the GoTo mount, if I don't have a view of Polaris are there other options for getting this aligned in EQ mode? I won't be the camera or scope to my laptop and just planning to use the Android app if possible. 

[szymon]

To align accurately you would need to use a laptop and software.  Just using the app won’t be sufficient.

9 minutes ago, djdurance said:

Thanks both. This is helpful. To clarify with the GoTo mount, if I don't have a view of Polaris are there other options for getting this aligned in EQ mode? I won't be the camera or scope to my laptop and just planning to use the Android app if possible. 

 

[djdurance]

10 hours ago, szymon said:

To align accurately you would need to use a laptop and software.  Just using the app won’t be sufficient.

 

Sigh... Okay. I'm guess I might just need to go with the Star Adventurer if this is the case. I am camping lots and bringing the laptop is a non starter with the family around. If I walk about 5 mins from my home I can get Polaris in view... I was hoping I could use the GoTo as I think this would be brilliant but knowing that doing basic astrophotography requires a laptop is a non-starter. 

[szymon]

47 minutes ago, djdurance said:

Sigh... Okay. I'm guess I might just need to go with the Star Adventurer if this is the case. I am camping lots and bringing the laptop is a non starter with the family around. If I walk about 5 mins from my home I can get Polaris in view... I was hoping I could use the GoTo as I think this would be brilliant but knowing that doing basic astrophotography requires a laptop is a non-starter. 

Well...it depends on how precise an alignment you need.  I actually used the AZ-GTi the other day with just rough polar alignment (I was fighting through clouds and Polaris wasn’t even visible — was desperate to try and get an image as we were staying in bortle 3, but the clouds didn’t cooperate!).  I held a green laser to the side of the mount head in line with the RA axis and pointed it at Polaris when it peeked through the clouds.  This was enough to give me a 120s exposure with round stars on the 6D (attached — not a great photo but the best I could do).

You could always attach a polar scope to the AZ-GTi.  That said, I would consider getting a surface tablet, connecting your camera to it, and using that to Polar Align 🙂

[djdurance]

Well 

1 hour ago, szymon said:

Well...it depends on how precise an alignment you need.  I actually used the AZ-GTi the other day with just rough polar alignment (I was fighting through clouds and Polaris wasn’t even visible — was desperate to try and get an image as we were staying in bortle 3, but the clouds didn’t cooperate!).  I held a green laser to the side of the mount head in line with the RA axis and pointed it at Polaris when it peeked through the clouds.  This was enough to give me a 120s exposure with round stars on the 6D (attached — not a great photo but the best I could do).

You could always attach a polar scope to the AZ-GTi.  That said, I would consider getting a surface tablet, connecting your camera to it, and using that to Polar Align 🙂

This is a great pic considering the time/lack of alignment. I'm planning on using sub 400mm focal length (more likely sub 250) and 120s or less exposures. Perhaps this is enought.... Even the Alt-az mode would be enough for these shorter exposures until I get setup with a tablet, etc. 

[szymon]

11 hours ago, djdurance said:

Well 

This is a great pic considering the time/lack of alignment. I'm planning on using sub 400mm focal length (more likely sub 250) and 120s or less exposures. Perhaps this is enought.... Even the Alt-az mode would be enough for these shorter exposures until I get setup with a tablet, etc. 

Thanks.

Another option you could consider, slightly heavier but portable, is the ioptron smart EQ pro.  Weighs a bit more but seems very capable, and has a polar scope as well as goto.  There’s one for sale second hand on the FB second hand astronomy UK group that might be worth an offer.

[djdurance]

13 hours ago, szymon said:

Thanks.

Another option you could consider, slightly heavier but portable, is the ioptron smart EQ pro.  Weighs a bit more but seems very capable, and has a polar scope as well as goto.  There’s one for sale second hand on the FB second hand astronomy UK group that might be worth an offer.

Great idea. I'm waiting for approval to be a part of the facebook group! Hopefully, I will make it. Any thoughts on this mount as an alternative?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-mounts/explore-scientific-iexos-100-pmc-eight-equatorial-mount.html

 

 

[szymon]

2 hours ago, djdurance said:

Great idea. I'm waiting for approval to be a part of the facebook group! Hopefully, I will make it. Any thoughts on this mount as an alternative?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-mounts/explore-scientific-iexos-100-pmc-eight-equatorial-mount.html

 

 

Never seen this one I’m afraid.  Might be fine!

[Seelive]

2 hours ago, djdurance said:

Great idea. I'm waiting for approval to be a part of the facebook group! Hopefully, I will make it. Any thoughts on this mount as an alternative?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-mounts/explore-scientific-iexos-100-pmc-eight-equatorial-mount.html

 

 

I had considered that mount when I was looking for one to use when imaging with my 400mm lens but in the end chose the Skywatcher EQM-35 Pro. It's effectively a star adventurer but with goto and all the extras (equatorial head, tripod, counterweights etc) together with a (detachable) declination axis and a greater load capacity.