Argh. Connecting NEQ6 to Windows 10 laptop.

[BrendanC]

Why oh why oh why is this always so difficult?

Why do things never just work?

A little story: about two years ago I got a trusty little Skywatcher 130P AZ Goto Synscan. After getting the hang of using the handset, I decided I wanted to hook it up to my laptop so that I could use planetarium software and camera control software alongside it too. So, after a lot of frustration with different cables and ASCOM drivers not working, I finally hit on a solution: use the Synscan Windows App, and flash the Sysncan handset so that it acted as a relay (not PC Direct). It worked! And very reliably too.

I recently upgraded to an NEQ6 and a key part of my strategy in doing so was to simply flash the handset again, and carry on as before. But no. The handset emitted an alarming constant tone every time I flashed it. I was able to flash it back as before and can use the handset, but Skywatcher support is useless and I was never able to get this to work.

So, after some consultation on forums, it seemed this was a good solution: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/lynx-astro-ftdi-eqdir-usb-adapter-for-sky-watcher-eq6-or-neq6-syntrek-pro-mounts.html. I thought I'd be able just to plug it in, and then use the app.

I just tried it. It doesn't work. Fire up the Synscan app, it says 'Unable to Connect'. Fire up APT, try using the ASCOM drivers, same result.

I am so fed up! It's been such a long, steep learning curve. Every time, it's two steps forward, one step back.

So, it looks like I'm going to have to abandon the nice, familiar, easy, simple, dependable way I had of working before, and learn something new. I'd rather be doing astronomy, frankly.

So is it really the case that, to use this cable, I have to install EQMOD?

If so, how then do I carry out initial alignment eg two-star or three-star alignment, if I can't use the Synscan handset or app?

Can anyone help? Please?

Thanks, Brendan

Edited June 13, 2020 by BrendanC

[Anne S]

You don't need the handset but you do need Eqmod as that's the eq6 Ascom driver. Alignment is done using a planetarium programme such as Cartes du Ciel or Stellarium. You then slew to several stars around the sky and sync once centred in the eyepiece. You can have as many sync points as you like which enables you to build a pointing model all over the sky with enough points. 

I've not tried the wifi method where you can use the Synscan app, maybe someone will chip in with some info. You'll probably need a Wi-fi dongle. I only used my eq6 for imaging. Latterly I didn't bother with alignment points, I platesolved to find my target.

Anne

[BrendanC]

Thanks. I was considering the wifi approach but my laptop's wifi is a bit dodgy (to control it from the house I use a powerline adapter). That's why I figured I'd go with a cable because it should just 'work'!

Looks like I'm going to have to go the EQMOD route. I'm sure there's lots to be said for this, it's just so very disappointing that I can't just crack on with a method that worked so well for me before.

[Anne S]

Eqmod is very good. It  enebles multiple software commections to control the mount, ie planetarium, imaging software, guiding software etc because is acts as a hub. Many other Ascom drivers can only do the same if connecting using POTH. 
 

I tried wireless control of my Celestron Nexstar mount and wasn't impressed. It was several years ago though. If I'm viewing, which isn't often, I use the handset but have my iPhone handy so I can refer to Skysafari.

[BrendanC]

I realised Wifi wouldn't work anyway because I use an ethernet powerline connection from the laptop, because the laptop's wifi is a bit dodgy, so that basically means I can't use the Synscan app any more.

I understand that EQMOD has benefits, but I'm a big fan of using what works, and keeping it as simple as possible. I've been through the EQMOD stuff before - dreadful website, incomprehensible interface, meaningless acronyms everywhere. It's just yet another mountain I'm not prepared to climb. So, I'm going to stick with the handset for now, only using it for alignment and then continuing with the laptop for slewing and imaging. One day I might take a deep breath and try using the cable again, but not for a while.

[stash_old]

18 hours ago, BrendanC said:

Why oh why oh why is this always so difficult?

Why do things never just work?

A little story: about two years ago I got a trusty little Skywatcher 130P AZ Goto Synscan. After getting the hang of using the handset, I decided I wanted to hook it up to my laptop so that I could use planetarium software and camera control software alongside it too. So, after a lot of frustration with different cables and ASCOM drivers not working, I finally hit on a solution: use the Synscan Windows App, and flash the Sysncan handset so that it acted as a relay (not PC Direct). It worked! And very reliably too.

I recently upgraded to an NEQ6 and a key part of my strategy in doing so was to simply flash the handset again, and carry on as before. But no. The handset emitted an alarming constant tone every time I flashed it. I was able to flash it back as before and can use the handset, but Skywatcher support is useless and I was never able to get this to work.

So, after some consultation on forums, it seemed this was a good solution: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/lynx-astro-ftdi-eqdir-usb-adapter-for-sky-watcher-eq6-or-neq6-syntrek-pro-mounts.html. I thought I'd be able just to plug it in, and then use the app.

I just tried it. It doesn't work. Fire up the Synscan app, it says 'Unable to Connect'. Fire up APT, try using the ASCOM drivers, same result.

I am so fed up! It's been such a long, steep learning curve. Every time, it's two steps forward, one step back.

So, it looks like I'm going to have to abandon the nice, familiar, easy, simple, dependable way I had of working before, and learn something new. I'd rather be doing astronomy, frankly.

So is it really the case that, to use this cable, I have to install EQMOD?

If so, how then do I carry out initial alignment eg two-star or three-star alignment, if I can't use the Synscan handset or app?

Can anyone help? Please?

Thanks, Brendan

Some comments - sorry if some comments seem a bit harsh:-

1. There was no need to flash the Handset for the NEQ6 - the "relay method" used on the older SW AZ GoTo would have worked with the NEQ6 - I suspect even keeping your old PC to Handset cable would have worked. Therefore you must have had a problem with either

   a. A dodgy Linx cable

   b. Using the wrong "COM" port in Synscan App

2. EQMOD works very well but if you had trouble with (1) then you wouldn't be succesful with EQMOD either. Ok you have to follow some instructions (but there are some very good Youtube tutorials) nothing extra special. But I accept some people have problems with "computers" - my wife is the same and she has come up with a new word "Discomputic" - she was a Dyslexic teacher. For the vast majority EQMOD is a fine if slightly outdated (com port only) piece of software. Using EQMOD allows Platesolving which ,with a reasonable starting point - pointing to somewhere near NCP etc, will get you to the objects location 99% of the time. There are other bits but its not appropriate to get any more confusing 🙂

3. To use the Lynx cable (which as I have already said may be "faulty") you do not need EQMOD as the Synscan App Pro will drive the NEQ6 without the handset  and so long as the Laptop/cables are  within reach of the NEQ6 you will be able to do 1,2,3 star Aligment - note here I am assuming you are viewing via an eyepiece. 

4. (3) can also be used if you venture into Astrophotography or EAA or require a planetarium program but you will have to have ASCOM installed correctly  (thats not EQMOD just ASCOM) and SW provide an very capable ASCOM driver so that CDC ,APT etc can connect thru the Synscan App much like what you did via the original handset relay method only using software. But again faulty cable or using the wrong com port will prevent success! The latest ASCOM install is about as simple as any other Windows software install now days ! 

5. Every PC set up is different - in that you may have software loaded that causes problems with Astro software. There is no way developers can take into account all the various scenarios so unless your laptop is a "clean set up" and without a good idea of what software you have loaded (or not loaded) its very difficult to help people having problems - Screen prints help of various info screens - e.g. Device Manager

6. You dont need POTH for most set ups - ASCOM and its drivers (provided by the device suppliers) already allows multiple software connections - So using  Synscan App Plus Synscan mobile ASCOM driver you can using most Planetariums for slewing and ,for example, APT to image ,Platesolve (if required) and control the NEQ6 - NO POTH in sight 🙂

7. Acronyms etc are just a what is used in todays society for lots of tech, most are not "meaningless" but I admit it can be confusing and a steep learning curve.

8. We ALL get frustrated even techie's when things dont according to plan or "work first time" but the end goal is normally worth it.

 

As I have said providing basic information (e.g. screen prints of Device Manager) is the key when you have problems. There are plenty of people who can help and a lot are just ordinary users who have already gone thru the "pain".

[BrendanC]

No offence taken, thanks for the feedback!

To go through your points:

1. I'm certain there was a need to flash the handset on the NEQ6. I had by this time sold the old AZ mount and handset, but kept the old cable. There is no other way to use the app, other via a Wifi  dongle (which I don't want to use because my laptop's wifi ain't great - I prefer cables to wifi for this kind of app where even a short break can result in have to go outside to re-establish a connection). I've tried using PC Direct which someone advised, and which also didn't work, but on advice originally from Skywatcher support, the only way to use the app on Windows, Android or iPhone is to flash the synscan handset to act as a relay.

2. I have a degree in IT, have worked in tech comms for over 25 years, have coded, and have built my own computers in the past so I'm pretty tech-savvy! My aversion to EQMOD is as I said previously: dreadful website, incomprehensible interface, meaningless acronyms everywhere, and it's just another mountain to climb, which I frankly don't want to. That's one of the two things I've noticed about astro tech in particular: documentation, integration and comms are not great.  On the other hand, the number two thing I've noticed is that software developers offer superb support.

3. Looks like I have a faulty cable then maybe? I tried several times to get the app to connect with the NEQ6 via the cable, it just didn't work. I've emailed the manufacturer support to ask about this. I'm going to spend more time with it though because you have a point about the COM port, maybe I just need to take a closer look at everything that's being registered.

Rest of points - agreed! Especially about the pain bit. I still wish the handset relay firmware had just worked, I could have been up and running very nicely by now. Skywatcher have since responded but only to apologise for being extremely slow (I guess understandably given the current situation).

Apologies btw for my exasperated tone! But I'm exasperated, and it shows.

Edited June 14, 2020 by BrendanC

[stash_old]

7 hours ago, BrendanC said:

1. I'm certain there was a need to flash the handset on the NEQ6. I had by this time sold the old AZ mount and handset, but kept the old cable. There is no other way to use the app, other via a Wifi  dongle (which I don't want to use because my laptop's wifi ain't great - I prefer cables to wifi for this kind of app where even a short break can result in have to go outside to re-establish a connection). I've tried using PC Direct which someone advised, and which also didn't work, but on advice originally from Skywatcher support, the only way to use the app on Windows, Android or iPhone is to flash the synscan handset to act as a relay.

Well sorry to disagree with SW but I do  - I have an Old AZ SW Goto (acrually 2) and a AZEQ6GT and 3 handsets at different firmware version levels (all type 3 hand sets) . The standard PC -direct connection settings has worked on numerous occasions with a wired PC USB RS232c adapter connected  to any of my hand sets (admittedly not updated them since 3.26(?)) and has worked correctly as a relay (i.e. TTL not RS232C hardware connection) SO LONG as I use the correct handset to Mount cable (the orig ones in my case).  I realise it wasn't your NEQ6 in the equation but the boards still use the same protocol - I know this from writing ESP32 Wifi bridges(using Synscan App as the software) and having to use Wireshark and the like to decode what wasn't working in my coding. So unless the later firmware levels (or you are using later V4/V5 handsets) altered something I cannot see why it wouldn't work as the handset is just an expensive RS232C(12v) to TTL(3.3v,5v) hardware adapter in this mode (PC direct not the Synscan Relay firware for V4/5 handsets ) as the protocol is software generated by Synscan App (and other programs). But I accept in your case it didn't work for reasons we will never really know perhaps  :-).

7 hours ago, BrendanC said:

2. I have a degree in IT, have worked in tech comms for over 25 years, have coded, and have built my own computers in the past so I'm pretty tech-savvy! My aversion to EQMOD is as I said previously: dreadful website, incomprehensible interface, meaningless acronyms everywhere, and it's just another mountain to climb, which I frankly don't want to. That's one of the two things I've noticed about astro tech in particular: documentation, integration and comms are not great.  On the other hand, the number two thing I've noticed is that software developers offer superb support.

It is free and documentation is the last thing in the list of "things to do" of free open source software   🙂 but what it does is very very good at and proven - thats why there is even a Linux version of EQMOD. But the author (who is on this site) of the orig Windows version has stopped major development I believe.  But hey we are all different so if you dont like EQMOD thats your perogative no probs 🙂

7 hours ago, BrendanC said:

3. Looks like I have a faulty cable then maybe? I tried several times to get the app to connect with the NEQ6 via the cable, it just didn't work. I've emailed the manufacturer support to ask about this. I'm going to spend more time with it though because you have a point about the COM port, maybe I just need to take a closer look at everything that's being registered.

The serial cable route is probably the simplest and most reliable way to connect a PC (even running Windows Synscan App Pro) to a mount- except when using poor USB TTL adapters with Windows (e.g. Prolific and other "cheap" clones). If your Lynx is recent it should be using FDTI chipped adapter which normally give no problems at all.  Assuming the power levels are not switched off in Windows USB ports (Power saving or whatever they call it now days) then its the wiring or the voltage level.

Assuming the wiring is OK - If they have sent (or made ) you the wrong voltage level converter 3.3v not 5v, as I think the NEQ6 uses, it will never work - PC will see the USB port and appear in device manager ,but the mount wont talk  !   FYI on wiring and voltage levels  - If you haven't already done so please read this http://eq-mod.sourceforge.net/eqdirect2.htm

[BrendanC]

Just want to be clear - when you say direct connection has worked, are you also saying, direct connection has worked *and you've been using the Synscan Windows app*?

Because my situation is that yes, I can use the handset from my laptop, as I've just been doing now, having plugged it into my laptop using the Skywatcher USB cable. So, I use the handset to set up the date, time and alignment, then I continue with APT for everything else. Whereas, previously, I could use the Windows app for setup instead, and then continue with APT.

But I cannot use the Windows app without flashing the firmware to relay mode. I couldn't for my v4 handset, until Skywatcher said I needed to flash the firmware to relay mode. Then it worked immediately. Same with v3 handset, except the firmware change doesn't work, which is why I'm back to using the handset.

Again, just for clarity, I'm referring to the 'Firmware: SynScan Relay V3, Version 3.1' here: http://skywatcher.com/download/software/synscan-v3-hand-controller-firmware/ - in which it says it is for 'controlling the telescope mount with the application "SynScan Pro for Windows".' This is the only reason I keep coming back to the firmware. I totally accept what you're saying about how you've got it to work, I'm just explaining why I've been doing it this way.

It seems you're way ahead of me regarding how the synscan functions so it would be good to know how you've got this to work. If you're definitely saying that I shouldn't have to flash the firmware to be able to run the Windows synscan app, it would be fantastic. If you have any pointers that would be great, for example what settings should I have on the handset for it to work (I tried PC Direct mode, that didn't work either).

Regarding the cable, let's see what FLO say. I'm also going to check the COM ports again and see what happens.

Thanks for all the help, really appreciate it.

Edited June 15, 2020 by BrendanC

[stash_old]

9 hours ago, BrendanC said:

It seems you're way ahead of me regarding how the synscan functions so it would be good to know how you've got this to work. If you're definitely saying that I shouldn't have to flash the firmware to be able to run the Windows synscan app, it would be fantastic. If you have any pointers that would be great, for example what settings should I have on the handset for it to work (I tried PC Direct mode, that didn't work either).

Yes exactly that - Windows PC (running Synscan App Pro Think v1.4) ------ Orig SW Cable for AZEQ6-----Handset(V3 using Std Firmware 3.26 I think - not relay firmware )----Orig SW Cable AZeq6---Mount - Using Direct Mode setting in Handset. This worked although I admit it was about 2-3yrs ago - haven't used this approach or a handset since then.  I cant be more specific and sorry I am not taking apart my current Obsys set up to replicate the above.

At the time I was experimenting different ways this included :-

1. Using an old RPI2 running Ser2net(using TCP-serial) with just a Prolific TTL/USB adapter from RPI2 to mount (DIY wiring RJ45) and HW VSP3 (free version) which creates a virtual Com port on Windows - this enabled me to use Ethernet/IP either wirelessly or wired (latter best performance/least trouble). So Any program, which includes Synscan App, that wants a com port would use the virtual Com port created by HW VSP - totally transparantly.

2. Using Virtualhere - USB Client/server program -runs client on Windows and server on RPI (or other h/w). Again transparant - worked but a bit flaky performance in the early days. Again worked with Synscan App.

and other methods not relevant to your selected route.

9 hours ago, BrendanC said:

Again, just for clarity, I'm referring to the 'Firmware: SynScan Relay V3, Version 3.1' here: http://skywatcher.com/download/software/synscan-v3-hand-controller-firmware/ - in which it says it is for 'controlling the telescope mount with the application "SynScan Pro for Windows".' This is the only reason I keep coming back to the firmware. I totally accept what you're saying about how you've got it to work, I'm just explaining why I've been doing it this way.

I never actual used the Relay Firmware. Mine was Std V3 firware and it  says the Synscan Relay V3 is for "It provides better performance than the "PC Direct Mode" in the SynScan hand controller." so not it makes a V3 handset work  as it did and had for a number of years. V4/V5 handset i cant comment on as never had one!

The other factor to remember is the mount board has its own "firmware" which you can update - I actually never did - so maybe this could be a factor and I was just "lucky".http://www.skywatcher.com/download/software/motor-control-firmware/

The Synscan App Pro used to have many hidden features which appeared after clicking 3/4 times on the blank line between WiFi Settings and Help - see attached image. Still has some (Including new features) but SW have removed some networking Add-on's like port numbers 😞

Sorry cant be of more help ! 🙂  Good luck !

 

 

[BrendanC]

Thank you so very much for all your help. I can see that you've taken a lot of time here and I really do appreciate it.

I'm going to have another go from square one: try the handset with PC Direct and my Skywatcher cable; then try flashing it for the relay; then try the Lynx cable; then try the cable with EQMOD. Meanwhile Skywatcher are looking into why I might be having problems flashing the handset, and FLO have my email about the cable, so I'll also see what they say.

At least now I'm much more certain of some things, whereas before the combinatorial explosion was killing me.

In the meantime, I can still do my thing but with the handset for initial alignment, which isn't really a huge issue. It just feels like a step backward. But, I can actually use the mount, which is great.

Again, thank you for all your help here.

[stash_old]

1 hour ago, BrendanC said:

Skywatcher are looking into why I might be having problems flashing the handset

Dont ask me why but Windows 7,8,10 have had problems for me but Vista (yes I have an old vista Laptop) flashed handsets everytime - the others just either hung after 50% upload or didn't want to do anything.

It should work there are plenty of NEQ6's doing  EQMOD/ASCOM/SYNSCAN APP etc - with a working cable 🙂  Just need the clear / dark skies - at the same time 🙂

Do you belong to a Astro Club or is there someone else "local" who has a NEQ6 to test their cables,mounts etc?

[bottletopburly]

Are you sure your lynx cable is the eqdirect cable version as they have different wiring  if it’s the cable to the handset then it will be wired differently, I use a lynx Astro cable fdti type  on my EQ6 never had a fault with it .

[BrendanC]

@stash_old I don't belong to a club unfortunately. I did for a while but they weren't much use. The handset seems to flash ok, says 100% done, then emits a high-pitched tone when I power up again (nearly had a heart attack first time, thought I'd bricked the unit). I can still flash it back to its 'normal' mode thank goodness.

@bottletopburly It's this one: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/lynx-astro-ftdi-eqdir-usb-adapter-for-sky-watcher-eq6-or-neq6-syntrek-pro-mounts.html

[stash_old]

Should have asked this before but what did you put between the PC and the Handset(HS) - so you set up was Mount  --> cable --> HS --> HS cable -- ?? ---PC ?

It should have been a USB/RS232 adapter (not an USB TTL adapter) -   was it? - what was the make ?

[BrendanC]

Mount > cable > HS > Skywatcher serial-USB cable (this one: https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/skywatcher-synscan-usb-to-serial-converter-cable.html) > PC

Btw FLO responded and said the exact same thing you did - I should just be able to plug in the Lynx cable and connect with the Synscan app. It's still not working, after trying it with two separate laptops and five USB ports between them.

I either have a duff cable, or there's something seriously wrong with the mount.

[BrendanC]

Errr... success?

Tentative, but I just went through the EQMOD setup and it sprung to life. I could immediately hear the high-pitched whine from the mount and everything works.

I would still much have preferred the app to have worked, simply because I was so familiar with it. But I guess EQMOD is probably better in the long run. There seem to be more people out there who are more familiar with that kind of setup, than there are using the app.

So, I'm if not a happy bunny yet, a slightly less disgruntled one. EQMOD would appear to have given me some of my gruntle back.

Thanks everyone for your help again, especially @stash_old. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by BrendanC

[stash_old]

15 hours ago, BrendanC said:

Mount > cable > HS > Skywatcher serial-USB cable (this one: https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/skywatcher-synscan-usb-to-serial-converter-cable.html) > PC

Btw FLO responded and said the exact same thing you did - I should just be able to plug in the Lynx cable and connect with the Synscan app. It's still not working, after trying it with two separate laptops and five USB ports between them.

I either have a duff cable, or there's something seriously wrong with the mount.

Err SW own they tend to use Prolific (which as you know you can detect the make from Device manager) chips which are not great and seem to have a power issue too - i.e. cable length / voltage drop.  I always used Genuine FDTI adapters(ok lie now and then CH340G) for both TTL and RS232C but still would have thought it would work - so long as the driver installs correctly and there is no "clash" (Prolific dont have a unique serial no which can cause problems).

 

[stash_old]

14 hours ago, BrendanC said:

Errr... success?

Tentative, but I just went through the EQMOD setup and it sprung to life. I could immediately hear the high-pitched whine from the mount and everything works.

I would still much have preferred the app to have worked, simply because I was so familiar with it. But I guess EQMOD is probably better in the long run. There seem to be more people out there who are more familiar with that kind of setup, than there are using the app.

So, I'm if not a happy bunny yet, a slightly less disgruntled one. EQMOD would appear to have given me some of my gruntle back.

Thanks everyone for your help again, especially @stash_old. 

OK if if the SW App still allows "retries" and/or "timeouts" for serial connections in the APP itself - just try changing the "retries" figure to a higher value - say 4. Then try the Synscan App.

If still no luck change the "time out" value to a higher MS value - not a large value else it will just hang.

It should dam well work !   or spend some cash and go for this one which is what I have and used - you can always send it back if it doesn't work (thanks Ebay) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FTDI-USB-to-serial-RS232-adapter-converter-1-8m-screened-cable-Gender-changer/122113973956?hash=item1c6e8f5ec4:g:cJMAAOSwxndcWUyn

Any how glad you have a working set up - Clear skies

 

[BrendanC]

Thanks again. I already tried exactly what you suggest, increasing the timeout and number of tries, with no luck. Even FLO got back to me and said it should work! 

So, it looks like this is just 'another of those things'. EQMOD is working fine now, I've managed to get Stellarium talking to it too which sorts me out for initial alignment (although I had to use Stellarium Scope to make that work, which I shouldn't have, but still...)

Onward and upward.