Not fully understanding Polar Alignment

[Erling G-P]

5 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

Ok, does this mean directly that my polar alignment is bad, or lets say if i choose the wrong star in center for example on my 2-star alignment this values are affected?

Again as a newbie, I'm not sure how the controller arrives at the Mel/Maz values, but do believe they're affected by your 1/2/3 star alignment, so not  necessarily your polar alignment that's bad.    I've had some occations where I struggled with a 3-star alignment, with the mount pointing far off the alignment stars, and getting high Mel/Maz values, and a warning 'Alignment may be poor'.  In these cases I redid the 3-star alignment and eventually arrived at an ok result, but without touching my original polar alignment.  If you turn off the mount to start over with your 2-star alignment, then leave it off for at least 30 secs - otherwise it appears to not clear old data.

[Anvil Basher]

45 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

@Anvil Basher I just dont understand that the alignment is so off given that @Robny's procedure is correct. That's what ive done every time, and feel quite satisfied that im on the right place.

With that said, i got this Mel/Maz message last time, and i don't know what would be acceptable Levels of Mel/Maz error?

The other photos are the setup in what i believe to be the home position. Does it look correct? 

I havent though about it before, but it may be important:
When press the slew buttons from parked position this happens:

Right key: RA sends the Scope to the left

Left key: RA sends the Scope to the right

Up key: DEC sends Scope to left

Down key: DEC sends Scope to right

 

Is this correct???

I also wonder about something on the dec axis. It seems a bit off topic, but there is a thought behind it. Lets say i dismounted the telescope, turned it 180 degrees and mounted it again. Would that have anything to say synscan-wise other then id have to redo the alignment and all? Is there a right and wrong way to mount the scope? I mean right is right and left is left on this axis no matter what, isnt it? I ask because at 60 degrees latitude the RA-motor cover and the DEC cover would "crash" if i want to observe something near the Northern horizon. Is this just how it is or am i far down in a hole with something here?
 

 

 

You have the exact same set-up as myself...........even the scope. How did you get away with one counterweight? I need 2 at that position. Or is yours twice the weight of one of mine? Just curious.

[Anvil Basher]

1 hour ago, masjstovel said:

Is there a right and wrong way to mount the scope? 
 

 

 

I have my spotter scope dead centre on top, so when the scope turns I can get to the eyepiece . Are the eyehole or spotter scope hitting the legs like that at any stage? Without getting out the manual that came with mine, I am pretty sure they state to mount the spotter on top dead centre..........but I could be wrong.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Anvil Basher
added spotter to make it read spotter scope

[masjstovel]

30 minutes ago, Erling G-P said:

Again as a newbie, I'm not sure how the controller arrives at the Mel/Maz values, but do believe they're affected by your 1/2/3 star alignment, so not  necessarily your polar alignment that's bad.    I've had some occations where I struggled with a 3-star alignment, with the mount pointing far off the alignment stars, and getting high Mel/Maz values, and a warning 'Alignment may be poor'.  In these cases I redid the 3-star alignment and eventually arrived at an ok result, but without touching my original polar alignment.  If you turn off the mount to start over with your 2-star alignment, then leave it off for at least 30 secs - otherwise it appears to not clear old data.

Ok, good to know. Do you do another 3-star alignment to better the Mel/Maz values or is there another way just for these values?

 

23 minutes ago, Anvil Basher said:

You have the exact same set-up as myself...........even the scope. How did you get away with one counterweight? I need 2 at that position. Or is yours twice the weight of one of mine? Just curious.

Its weighted 5.2kg each, and Yours? The scope is around 5kg too isnt it? I tried with both now but that was way too heavy.

When i losen the locks and do the balancing I imagined it would be like spinning a Bicycle wheel almost, but its much tighter than that. Its supposed to be a little tight? Also if i turn my Scope 90 degrees to the left it feels tighter the last degrees than if i turn it to the right. Is this a problem?

 

I did my plan now, turned the mount North by compass, and set it to my latitude, and calibrated the setting circles and went for the 2 star alignment. I chose Vega. Stellarium puts this at RA/DEC position 18h36m56.15s / +38* 47'07.9". The DEC axis was spot on but the RA showed 21h30m. Now the RA setting circle is very loose and seem a bit simple and i've seen it stuck itself from time to time but.. i dont know? 

[masjstovel]

18 minutes ago, Anvil Basher said:

I have my spotter scope dead centre on top, so when the scope turns I can get to the eyepiece . Are the eyehole or spotter scope hitting the legs like that at any stage? Without getting out the manual that came with mine, I am pretty sure they state to mount the spotter on top dead centre..........but I could be wrong.

It's funny you mention it because when i looked at my own picture it seemed a bit odd, so i googled pictures of the scope on mount and adjusted its own axis. so that the eyepiece is paralel to the bracket-screws, and that puts the finder approximately on top.

Edit: Yes the eyepiece has hit the legs, and it didnt cross my mind before that i could turn it so.... there you go.

Edited April 27, 2019 by masjstovel

[Anvil Basher]

1 minute ago, masjstovel said:

It's funny you mention it because when i looked at my own picture it seemed a bit odd, so i googled pictures of the scope on mount and adjusted its own axis. so that the eyepiece is paralel to the bracket-screws, and that puts the finder approximately on top.

Also, on top of one of the 2 mounting rings holding the scope, you have a black knurled screw for attaching cameras, electronic st4 type cameras, etc., so the spotter scope needs to line up with that...especially if you intend to use it.

[wookie1965]

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[Anvil Basher]

8 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

 

Its weighted 5.2kg each, and Yours? The scope is around 5kg too isnt it? I tried with both now but that was way too heavy.

When i losen the locks and do the balancing I imagined it would be like spinning a Bicycle wheel almost, but its much tighter than that. Its supposed to be a little tight? Also if i turn my Scope 90 degrees to the left it feels tighter the last degrees than if i turn it to the right. Is this a problem?

 

I did my plan now, turned the mount North by compass, and set it to my latitude, and calibrated the setting circles and went for the 2 star alignment. I chose Vega. Stellarium puts this at RA/DEC position 18h36m56.15s / +38* 47'07.9". The DEC axis was spot on but the RA showed 21h30m. Now the RA setting circle is very loose and seem a bit simple and i've seen it stuck itself from time to time but.. i dont know? 

I need the 2 weights. I can put up a pic if you like.

No, they are tight. I would rather have it the way it is than loose Turning mine either side is no different. The scope might weigh 5 kg, but add on lens, camera, the mount itself when rotated, (the top part is quite heavy).

[masjstovel]

Just now, Anvil Basher said:

I need the 2 weights. I can put up a pic if you like.

No, they are tight. I would rather have it the way it is than loose Turning mine either side is no different. The scope might weigh 5 kg, but add on lens, camera, the mount itself when rotated, (the top part is quite heavy).

Sure I'd like that. I also think its good that their tight, its just not what i imagined it would be before i got the mount and scope. I think the RA balancing was very simple. I feel it has better tolerance for small errors on that axis, but I worked alot on the DEC-balancing. 

[Anvil Basher]

6 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

Sure I'd like that. I also think its good that their tight, its just not what i imagined it would be before i got the mount and scope. I think the RA balancing was very simple. I feel it has better tolerance for small errors on that axis, but I worked alot on the DEC-balancing. 

I have the old motor controls on. Taking some pics so I can put them up for sale. But 2 weights, and it balances in every direction perfectly. What angle do you have yours looking up? Seems quite sharp. Mine is low in this pic because I need it at that angle to get through the door. I made up a stand with 3 heavy duty braked wheels, so I can just roll it around outside.

[masjstovel]

4 minutes ago, Anvil Basher said:

I have the old motor controls on. Taking some pics so I can put them up for sale. But 2 weights, and it balances in every direction perfectly. What angle do you have yours looking up? Seems quite sharp. Mine is low in this pic because I need it at that angle to get through the door. I made up a stand with 3 heavy duty braked wheels, so I can just roll it around outside.

Yes, Its pretty steep, 60*25', so the axis is "laying" more on the mount than yours. Your look more like 30something?  I guess when i attach my DSLR (988grams) i would need the other weght as well. But since I'm new to this i get unsure - but its balanced. Lets say it was a little off, couldt that be the reason for my problems? 

[Anvil Basher]

12 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

Yes, Its pretty steep, 60*25', so the axis is "laying" more on the mount than yours. Your look more like 30something?  I guess when i attach my DSLR (988grams) i would need the other weght as well. But since I'm new to this i get unsure - but its balanced. Lets say it was a little off, couldt that be the reason for my problems? 

Yes, you are in Norway........I am in Ireland but mine is low to get it through the door, once outside I set it up again. If the balance was a little off.......I doubt it. If you follow the instructions for polar alignment in the manual with the tripod/mount you should have no problem.....it really is self-explanatory. When I start to add the other bits I quickly balance it, just to make sure.

You must be looking at something other than the north star, my polar scope has an alignment image, plus the manual gives you exact locations of big dipper in relation to it. Once you have the scope aligned, the info put into the set, plus your time, minus an hour, plus an hour, etc, it should work.

I am new at all this also, but equipment is equipment....it needs a learning curve.........or a reset!.......wish I could get a reset to age 14 ?

Edited April 27, 2019 by Anvil Basher

[masjstovel]

4 minutes ago, Anvil Basher said:

Yes, you are in Norway........I am in Ireland but mine is low to get it through the door, once outside I set it up again. If the balance was a little off.......I doubt it. If you follow the instructions for polar alignment in the manual with the tripod/mount you should have no problem.....it really is self-explanatory. When I start to add the other bits I quickly balance it, just to make sure.

You must be looking at something other than the north star, my polar scope has an alignment image, plus the manual gives you exact locations of big dipper in relation to it. Once you have the scope aligned, the info put into the set, plus your time, minus an hour, plus an hour, etc, it should work.

I am new at all this also, but equipment is equipment....it needs a learning curve.........or a reset!.......wish I could get a rest to age 14 ?

I olnly have the clock wheel and the app to tell me where it should be the clock, but wished i had something like the Big Dipper to confirm. 

[Anvil Basher]

page 14 of the manual

[masjstovel]

3 minutes ago, Anvil Basher said:

page 14 of the manual

Ah, yes i know where the Big Dipper is, i meant the reticule the polar Scope, the "old" model With the ring for polaris and the Big dipper for turning the ring:)

[Anvil Basher]

2 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

Ah, yes i know where the Big Dipper is, i meant the reticule the polar Scope, the "old" model With the ring for polaris and the Big dipper for turning the ring:)

I do not understand what you mean. When looking through your polar alignment scope you have a picture of the various stars, so you can line it up. You rotate the alignment scope in relation to what part of the year you are in, spring, summer, etc. All the corresponding stars line up. So you are now aligned. Even if the big dipper was on an outer ring you still turn it to the corresponding season, and it points to polaris.......the star you line up with. You can get all the info on your angle of elevation for the mount from the net using locator apps, or google.

The book, Page 14, shows where the bd should be according to the season. So if you have the north star at centre, the dipper where it should be, you should be aligned. 

I am getting confused myself with it all....lol......

If you have polaris at centre and the rest lined up, it is not your alignment that is causing the problems. The problem lies with the goto system somewhere.

[masjstovel]

What i mean is, that is not whats in my polar Scope. All i see is the polar clock. So i have to align in a different way. I use an app to see where polaris should be positioned along the clock circle in my position. Its like an Hour Angle clock. So as i have understood correctly. I dont turn this around. 6 o'clock is always in the bottom. I just see on the app: "oh, polaris is at 02:30 o'clock", and i align it in between 0 and 3 o'clock in the circle, which should be stationary like this always witih 6 o clock straight down. The Octans sign is for alignment in the Southern hemisphere if i understood it correctly.

So With your polar scope, if you were in my position, you would turn it around so that the Big dipper position is aligned With the Big Dipper in the sky, right? and your " small Polaris-circle" would be in the exact same spot as mine - 2:30 o'clock

 

All of the above is of course, if i have understood it correctly:) 

[Anvil Basher]

I found this bloke helpful 

 

[masjstovel]

Thats my favourite polar alignment video yes. This guy the polar scope reticule that you have though. Still, the result would be the same, just that i dont turn the reticule as mentioned.

[Anvil Basher]

16 minutes ago, masjstovel said:

Thats my favourite polar alignment video yes. This guy the polar scope reticule that you have though. Still, the result would be the same, just that i dont turn the reticule as mentioned.

If you are aligned, it has to be the goto system. I really cannot see any other reason. Either the info you put in is incorrect, the system needs a reset, or worst case....faulty. We have counted out many things, bringing us back to the goto system. It moves in the right direction, but not to where you want it...........maybe the psu will sort it, if not it is back to the drawing board.

[masjstovel]

15 minutes ago, Anvil Basher said:

If you are aligned, it has to be the goto system. I really cannot see any other reason. Either the info you put in is incorrect, the system needs a reset, or worst case....faulty. We have counted out many things, bringing us back to the goto system. It moves in the right direction, but not to where you want it...........maybe the psu will sort it, if not it is back to the drawing board.

Cant guarantee my alignment as i am a beginner, but i set my latitude, point North, see a strong star, and i align it the same spot as the clock shows on my app, my tripod bubble is in the middle, so i think a GoTo-problem myself too:)

[Erling G-P]

4 hours ago, masjstovel said:

Ok, good to know. Do you do another 3-star alignment to better the Mel/Maz values or is there another way just for these values?

 

No, it's only when I have run into trouble with the 2 or 3-star alignments, and the values have been far off that I have redone the star alignment.  I recently started using an app giving a graphical representation of the view in the polar scope, like you also mention.  It has generally bettered my Mel/Maz values, probably due to my polar alignment being better. It's a lot easier to mimick the graphical image from the app, rather than having to 'guesstimate' where on the clock circle Polaris should be placed, based on the time given by the hand controller.  I have also been in doubt about where 2018 & 2019 are located exactly in relation to the 3 circles on the clock, and the app has cleared that up too.

[masjstovel]

6 minutes ago, Erling G-P said:

No, it's only when I have run into trouble with the 2 or 3-star alignments, and the values have been far off that I have redone the star alignment.  I recently started using an app giving a graphical representation of the view in the polar scope, like you also mention.  It has generally bettered my Mel/Maz values, probably due to my polar alignment being better. It's a lot easier to mimick the graphical image from the app, rather than having to 'guesstimate' where on the clock circle Polaris should be placed, based on the time given by the hand controller.  I have also been in doubt about where 2018 & 2019 are located exactly in relation to the 3 circles on the clock, and the app has cleared that up too.

Which app is it? i use the SAM Console app myself (Star Adventurer mini).

[Erling G-P]

1 minute ago, masjstovel said:

Which app is it? i use the SAM Console app myself (Star Adventurer mini).

It's called SynscanInit 2.   It has both the 'old' and 'new' polar scope reticles represented (I have the new one, same as you)

[Anvil Basher]

You sure you have it balanced correctly? I did a test with mine tonight and put only 1 weight on. There is no way on earth it would balance, definitely needs 2. I think that would put strain on the motor.