Celestron 6SE vs 8SE with CMOS digital astronomy?

[theskyisthelimit99]

Im diving into the world of computerized telescopes and fairly new to that end.. and also to digital.. 

I've already ordered a ZWO ASI224MC, done extensive research and had a budget of around $1000 or less for the scope and gotten some very good pointers from folks.

Given that getting a better GME (equatorial mount) was a bit out of the range for me.. more expensive avx being $799 (and maybe too light for an 8") or other ones that start at $2200 for the mount, I was ok with the SE line and thinking it would give me some good digital shots and maybe planet animations (using post processing).

So i had basically pulled the trigger on the 6 but then thought maybe i should cancel/refuse it and go with the 8 for more detail, but i see many talking about motor shake and issues because it pushes the limits of the mount it comes with, though i think some may have swapped out the mount cheaply (somehow, non GME too) or added weights or pads to help or motofocusers but unsure if the focuser helps with cmos imaging.

At this point i'm unsure.. go with the 6SE or the 8SE and still be able to do decent astrophotography and maybe later upgrade the mount in 3+ years..

edit: i do see the c8 can be had for a little more with GME, unsure if the bulk of the mount is prohibitive for transport though.

Any thoughts/suggestions on these particular models.. anyone used the 8se for digital or both perhaps?

Thanks

UPDATE on equipment purchased or thinking about getting (this could help others as well)

Telescope:

8SE on SE mount for now
**Possible replacement mounts (way later):  Advanced VX 91519 ($799 new) , CGX 91530 ($2200 new), or CGEM $1999 or CPC Tripod($300 new)
**If equatorial, saw mention of an Orion Mini Auto Glider to get 2 to 10 minute exposures(unsure how this works or if it replaces the cmos)? ($300)
There is the HD Pro Wedge $349 (40lbs i think) as well, but i think that was ruled out.

**possibly need another dovetail to slide the scope forward to clear the base depending on whats attached later on? (ADM dovetail? may need to drill or tap? 7" )

 

Telescope accessories:

Dew / Light Shield 94009 (put on every time?) $17
Refractor for DSO to piggy back on telescope (or put on another mount) (hints might be here?
ST80 80mm ($99 new?)

Plus mount (dovetail bar or dovetail with rings? unsure which type/model)
or
Astronomics AT130 130mm (much later) (find used)

MISC:

Laptop red light software switch
Xtra Dark cling for cell phone  $6.95
Plexi option for laptop (though not the xtra dark version) $17.95
Adjustable Height Chair $140 ($109 on discount)
Walmart Table $15
Sterilite Container for OTA tube $10

 

Imaging:

CMOS ZWO ASI224M 1.2MP $244
UV / IR cut SBONY off ebay $9
ZWO ADC $158 shipped
Starlight Feathertouch Microfocuser (unsure if relevant with imaging or this scope)? $295?

Later: DSLR $496 Nikon D3400

Cell phone imaging mounts:

This $18 one or this $59 Celestron NexYZ unsure till test

 

Lens/cases (1.25")

SR Cases with foam to cut/pull out Large case 17" $27
x-Cell LX 9mm
x-cell LX 12mm $65
x-cell LC 25mm $65
Celestron 2x barlow $69

Plus I have an assortment of pre-existing lenses

*Still need a variable ND polarized lens for moon shots or maybe a 25% $17 one (baader supposed to be great $40) or an orange one #21 $13(it was mentioned variable wasnt as crisp)

**Focal reducer f6.3?  $122 Unsure if this is useful but read it may be 

Eye piece with cross hairs for alignment $40 (may not get) or illuminated one
Focuser mask $17 (may get later)

 

**Orion Mount (which one, for finder base or for sct?)   $16.99 
Red Dot Finder ($14.99), this one? or use telrad that i have (swap in place of prefab finder)
Lithium ion battery pack $14.99

Software: 

Firecapture
AutoStakkert
RegiStax (sharpening and maybe auto image rotation?)

[Sunshine]

My friend next door has the 8se, one thing we notice while we observe is his mount seems to struggle a bit, and thats without any added gear.

honestly, if it were me, i would probably stick with the 6 and have some room for gear you may want to add, especially for AP, you want to be well below the mount's limit.

That's just my thoughts, other 8se owners may have different opinions.  If i may use another line from Celestron as an example, the AVX mount series SCT's, which come with either 8,9.25, and 11" ota's, on the AVX mount,

many have said that the 11" OTA is a bit heavy for the AVX.  Could the pattern be the same with the SE line? do they design a mount that can carry a 6 but barely an 8?.

[theskyisthelimit99]

1 hour ago, Sunshine said:

My friend next door has the 8se, one thing we notice while we observe is his mount seems to struggle a bit, and thats without any added gear.

honestly, if it were me, i would probably stick with the 6 and have some room for gear you may want to add, especially for AP, you want to be well below the mount's limit.

That's just my thoughts, other 8se owners may have different opinions.  If i may use another line from Celestron as an example, the AVX mount series SCT's, which come with either 8,9.25, and 11" ota's, on the AVX mount,

many have said that the 11" OTA is a bit heavy for the AVX.  Could the pattern be the same with the SE line? do they design a mount that can carry a 6 but barely an 8?.

That was my concern on the weight limit.  I did see the advanced vx 8" can be had for about $300 more than the bundle with the 8SE.. perhaps the advanced vx is the better bet.. or I just give this a shot for now with the 8se and swap to the advanced vx mount later ($800 new, maybe find used).

[MarsG76]

I wouldn't worry about the 8SE being too heavy for it. I initially bought the 8SE before I had the money to spend on a EQ mount. I have taken some planetary and lunar images through it with the standard mount and it was fine... yes there was shake when wind hit it but the way I saw it was to get the bigger scope and in the future put it on a EQ mount. My plan was always with astrophotography in mind.

I have never regretted this decision. The 8SE has amazing views of planets, the moon and a massive amount of DSOs and now I image using it on a CGEM mount.

I don't know exactly how much difference there is between the 6SE and 8SE when used for imaging or observing, but I personally would know that if I went for the smaller scope, I would always be thinking about the 8", especially once I got the CGEM, and would have ended up buying the 8" OTA any way...

[theskyisthelimit99]

18 minutes ago, MarsG76 said:

I wouldn't worry about the 8SE being too heavy for it. I initially bought the 8SE before I had the money to spend on a EQ mount. I have taken some planetary and lunar images through it with the standard mount and it was fine... yes there was shake when wind hit it but the way I saw it was to get the bigger scope and in the future put it on a EQ mount. My plan was always with astrophotography in mind.

I have never regretted this decision. The 8SE has amazing views of planets, the moon and a massive amount of DSOs and now I image using it on a CGEM mount.

I don't know exactly how much difference there is between the 6SE and 8SE when used for imaging or observing, but I personally would know that if I went for the smaller scope, I would always be thinking about the 8", especially once I got the CGEM, and would have ended up buying the 8" OTA any way...

Well thats good to know.. i also may have a shot at a used (3 years old) 8SE on the SE mount a person is selling (asking around 600).. i guess that plus later a used gem advanced vx mount might be the way to go if needed ($600 more used i think on the mount), better than $1500 right now for the 8" advanced (or $1200 for the 8se).. though no warranty i dont think left.

[MarsG76]

17 minutes ago, theskyisthelimit99 said:

Well thats good to know.. i also may have a shot at a used (3 years old) 8SE on the SE mount a person is selling (asking around 600).. i guess that plus later a used gem advanced vx mount might be the way to go if needed ($600 more used i think on the mount), better than $1500 right now for the 8" advanced (or $1200 for the 8se).. though no warranty i dont think left.

3 years is virtually brand new if it was taken care of.... just make sure that it's in optimal and original working condition, and things like the corrector plate has not been tinkered with, a 3 year old scope should be pristine condition.

 

[Demonperformer]

I have owned both scopes. For planetary/lunar imaging, the 8SE wins every time. For this you do not have any major worries about exposure length. For longer exposure (DSO) imaging, I have found the limitation not to be any wobbliness in the mount (it is the excactly the same mount for each scope) but the tracking limitations, particularly backlash, which has been a problem with both mounts. Now the ZWO cameras go a long way to resolving this problem, because exposures of just a few seconds can give some excellent results. So I would choose the 8SE.

 

[theskyisthelimit99]

29 minutes ago, Demonperformer said:

I have owned both scopes. For planetary/lunar imaging, the 8SE wins every time. For this you do not have any major worries about exposure length. For longer exposure (DSO) imaging, I have found the limitation not to be any wobbliness in the mount (it is the excactly the same mount for each scope) but the tracking limitations, particularly backlash, which has been a problem with both mounts. Now the ZWO cameras go a long way to resolving this problem, because exposures of just a few seconds can give some excellent results. So I would choose the 8SE.

 

Thanks for the input.. It was mentioned elsewhere too, that i could get an st80 80mm refractor and put it on the se mount and do some dso that may not be possible just using the 8" or better quality.. they go for around $100 used apparently.  Excited for the planetary part.

[theskyisthelimit99]

32 minutes ago, MarsG76 said:

3 years is virtually brand new if it was taken care of.... just make sure that it's in optimal and original working condition, and things like the corrector plate has not been tinkered with, a 3 year old scope should be pristine condition.

 

Ill ask him on the corrector plate (at this point unsure what that portion is, but i'm sure ill find out quickly)

[Knighty2112]

I have a C8 on a 8S SE GoTo mount which I purchased separately from the OTA. The C8 can be a little tricky to balance fully on the mount, especially with heavier loads fitted to the back of the scope, as there is a limit with the original dovetail of how far forward you can set the scope in the mount clamp to balance it correctly on the mount. I got over this by screwing onto the original dovetail bar another smaller dovetail bar which allows the back part of the telescope to be clear away from the clamp so that you can balance it much better. Since doing that it works much better, but not sure if this mount would give you long exposures required for DSO imaging. I find it just fine for lunar and planetary imaging, but not got into anything more as yet to image with on the C8/GoTo mount combo. Just about to get a second hand Celestron AVX GoTo mount. 

[MarsG76]

8 hours ago, theskyisthelimit99 said:

Ill ask him on the corrector plate (at this point unsure what that portion is, but i'm sure ill find out quickly)

Yes you will... The corrector plate or lens is the "glass" on the front of the tube... it's not just a simple piece of glass but an actual lens that corrects/alters the incoming light for optimal compatibility with the imperfections of the primary mirror... wrongly aligned or altered corrector causes inability to focus perfectly...  very important piece of glass...

[theskyisthelimit99]

I've updated the first post with a list of things I've ordered for the 8SE.. still a few questions though out of those..

The Microfocuser (not for digital imaging though)?
Which orion mount would i want to order (there are two)..
Focal reducer f6.3
Mini auto glider for on an equatorial (unsure what it does but it was mentioned it helped with longer exposures or replaces cmos or works with it?)

[theskyisthelimit99]

4 hours ago, MarsG76 said:

Yes you will... The corrector plate or lens is the "glass" on the front of the tube... it's not just a simple piece of glass but an actual lens that corrects/alters the incoming light for optimal compatibility with the imperfections of the primary mirror... wrongly aligned or altered corrector causes inability to focus perfectly...  very important piece of glass...

He indicates he never messed with it.. so it sounds like all is well.

 

[MarsG76]

20 hours ago, theskyisthelimit99 said:

He indicates he never messed with it.. so it sounds like all is well.

 

In that case grab it... it's a awesome telescope, I love the 8SE... 

[Cosmic Geoff]

Depends what sort of astrophotography you want to do. I have successfully imaged planets with my C8 SE. Also I have taken stills of some bright planetary nebulae.  As for long exposure astrophotography, I don't think the mount is suitable for this.

[theskyisthelimit99]

On 14/07/2018 at 12:18, Cosmic Geoff said:

Depends what sort of astrophotography you want to do. I have successfully imaged planets with my C8 SE. Also I have taken stills of some bright planetary nebulae.  As for long exposure astrophotography, I don't think the mount is suitable for this.

I've read stories of others that had success just changing the mount to equatorial for longer exposures of DSO objects.. AVX mount etc, or beefier.

[theskyisthelimit99]

On 14/07/2018 at 10:52, MarsG76 said:

In that case grab it... it's a awesome telescope, I love the 8SE... 

Its a golden win.. got it today.  waiting on clear skies.

Still hoping to find some sort of lithium power back that i can power the scope with, maybe the laptop too... and another for the dew strip i'm going to order (i think i need a dew controller, the ones i've seen have a cig adapter though, unless you just cut it and put a dc plug on it)

[Demonperformer]

Yes, the OTA (with its attached dovetail bar) can be attached to an EQ mount simply enough for long-exposure imaging. Congrats on the new scope, you have a lot of fun in store ...

[theskyisthelimit99]

Any thoughts on the need for dew heaters.. i'm assuming i should at least get the 8" one (Roughly $48 via highpoint).. and i guess i have to have a controller (2 port around $120?).. i've seen it mentioned to get one that monitors the temp like a dewbuster, but those are $260.. im debating the need (and which size) for the eyepiece when doing optical not cmos and for the red dot finder)?

Secondary issue is powering all this at the field via a compact solution like lithium, for say 4 hours (for $140).. the laptop needing 19.5v (3.3 amp 65 watt) is the biggest issue.  Also afraid to just get a dc to dc male to male cable and go from the output of one of those lithium packs that are 2.5amp, to the scope, fear of damage.. read that the scope might be harmed if not a "clean" signal.. and also if you can just use a dc splitter off the single port i have on my one 6800mah lithium pack that i have.. not seeing male to 2 female options, only female to dual male.

 

 

[theskyisthelimit99]

I think i'm going to go with these units  $30 as many said the 6k version alone lasts 4-6 hours (for just scope).. at least this for powering the scope..

Or.. maybe the beefier 11,000mah version, $69 assuming its ok to split the dc output between the dew heater controller and the scope.

I could also use the 11,000mah version to potentially power the dell 3.3amp laptop for at least 3-4 hours, using one of these cigarette adapters + this dell dc to 19.5v converters $22

Apparently the mah ratings on this brand are fairly accurate, though with any lithium ion product, they are probably limited to 500 cycles

edit: at least with these above.. they warn about high humidity environments as a danger that they can catch on fire..  not so great

 

 

This car jumper pack is rated at 32000mah if true.. and is the same price as the 11,000 version.. might also be worth a try.  It might even work with the dell without the cig adapter + dc adapter saving some coin and lasting for up to 8 hours.

 

[Demonperformer]

I guess the answer to your question about dew heaters is ... how dewy does it get where you are? I know that isn't particularly helpful. I have never found the need for one ... a decent dew shield (originally a piece of 'yoga mat' cut and taped to fit) did the job adequately.

My approach would be not to get one at this time, but produce some sort of dewshield. If that works, fine. If the corrector plate starts dewing, then get one. If it does start to dew, do NOT wipe it off with a cloth. Either allow it to evaporate naturally (front cover off), or use a gentle source of heat like a hairdryer. Excessive moisture can be "sucked up" with tissue paper touched lightly against the drops.

[theskyisthelimit99]

9 hours ago, Demonperformer said:

I guess the answer to your question about dew heaters is ... how dewy does it get where you are? I know that isn't particularly helpful. I have never found the need for one ... a decent dew shield (originally a piece of 'yoga mat' cut and taped to fit) did the job adequately.

My approach would be not to get one at this time, but produce some sort of dewshield. If that works, fine. If the corrector plate starts dewing, then get one. If it does start to dew, do NOT wipe it off with a cloth. Either allow it to evaporate naturally (front cover off), or use a gentle source of heat like a hairdryer. Excessive moisture can be "sucked up" with tissue paper touched lightly against the drops.

Ooops.. well i may have errored last night.. i forgot to use the dew shield I already had.. it was a high that day of 85 maybe, took scope out at 830 from house at around 73f.. no issues at 930pm.. by 11pm the front of the scope (collector) was covered.. all my eyepieces were covered in my metal case that i left open (i guess i should just keep this closed, duh).. the red dot finder was clouded (i dont like this red dot finder much found it difficult to see for pointing at stars)..

I did use a lense cleaning type cloth (which i thought was safe) to wipe away the dew.. but i guess as you say, this is why some people have 12v blow dryers on hand? (any recommendations on one, the ones with cig lighter adapters all seem to have bad reviews on amazon), none of the lithium packs i have are going to have ac plugs on them though. (dont most just breath on the eyepiece if the eyepieces fog up or use a safe cloth to wipe the top? maybe i wont need eyepiece heaters)

Frustrating.. so do you think the dew shield would have blocked that much dew .. otherwise i think i'm looking at about $280 to buy an astrozap controller, 8" heater, 1.25" heater (unsure if eyepieces were fogging but i think they were), red dot finder heater..

I also couldnt get skyalign to work right or when it said it succeeded it was way off (i used 3 star), felt lazy about 2 star because i had to pick specific stars, so i tried planetary and 3 star, neither worked right (city was correct too, i think, though didnt prompt me for city but i went in and manually changed it).

The views of jupiter and the moon and saturn were pretty great, though smallish (25mm lense).. used the 9mm it was somewhat better.. didnt get to the cmos part yet.

 

 

[Demonperformer]

Well, what's done is done. Hopefully you will have got away with it.

I have found dewshields can deal with an amazing amount of dew. But if you find you do need some kind of heating on a regular basis strips are easy enough to make for a lot less than that. Basically a load of resisters linked in parallel wrapped round the ota by the corrector plate. Google should turn up several plans.

The most common reasons for alignment to fail are location & date/time. When doing 3-star make sure the objects you select are widely spaced - it works best when going to objects within the triangle formed. That said, it is one of those things that can just be tempramental and refuse to play for no apparent reason! Will probably be fine next time. 

[theskyisthelimit99]

10 hours ago, Demonperformer said:

Well, what's done is done. Hopefully you will have got away with it.

I have found dewshields can deal with an amazing amount of dew. But if you find you do need some kind of heating on a regular basis strips are easy enough to make for a lot less than that. Basically a load of resisters linked in parallel wrapped round the ota by the corrector plate. Google should turn up several plans.

The most common reasons for alignment to fail are location & date/time. When doing 3-star make sure the objects you select are widely spaced - it works best when going to objects within the triangle formed. That said, it is one of those things that can just be tempramental and refuse to play for no apparent reason! Will probably be fine next time. 

Yeah that was my modern day scope newbie thing I stupidly wiped though with a clean glass cleaning microfiber that night.. it left debris so last nite before going out i had to wipe again... i looked up suggestions and went with just a touch of windex on a clean cloth but for some reason it left a layer of film on the glass, but after a few more rounds i was able to make clear(mostly).. so when cleaning whats best or done the most? There also appeared to be one slight speck or imperfection (might have been there, didnt look well when i just got this used).. or it could be a spot that may come off with more effort.

It was two things on alignment i think.. one was the menu choice "zone1".. i ignored it hit enter before.. this time, dumb me realized i needed to select eastern.. also the tube was on reversed before (maybe a factor), pointing the wrong way on the mount.. tried 3 star last nite.. failed again..  I did the two star.. Polaris and Mizar.. on the second one, i thought it would just let me choose any star without knowing which one, but it required the name.. so mizar was easy though kinda close to polaris obviously.. it worked.

However.. it was maybe half a finger length too high when i dialed in a planet.. I was able to dial in say jupiter and then hit the sync option to keep it in view.

I was still struggling prior to this with aligning the celestron red dot.. looking up the barrell from down low (i'm 6'6, i didnt bring the adjustable height chair i just bought either).. hard to see a star when the dot is right on it, trying to close one eye or leave both open etc.

So I was thinking something like this RACI finder scope (9x50) might be the ticket and future proof as guide camera ability?  (i saw a cheaper $70 one but wasnt right angle and cant be guide).. a little steep but might make my life easier   i saw on this right angle finder that remounting leads to needing it readjusted (but dont they all), but i'm hoping to find some sort of $30 case i can fit the tube with mount and finders left on, to avoid this.  On this raci one, i'm not sure you can just swap it in and out on the universal dovetail mount.. maybe though

This lead, i think, to cmos imager issues.. i could target the moon get it on screen.. then switch to jupiter, even get it in view with the eyepiece (25mm i was using to align, though i have a 12mm illuminated coming to help), i'd remove the eyepiece look down the tube, jupiter there tracking.. put the cmos + ir cut + barlow and adc on.. nothing, adjusting, nothing.. (i did briefly have it on screen once in 20 mins).. tried adjusting focus on the scope etc, playing with firecapture settings.. a whole other issue but probably linked to alignment issues.

I'm slowly getting there, but working out the kinks (this is my first computerized scope or new scope in 25 years, so i'm trying to catch up fast haha)

 

[theskyisthelimit99]

On 13/07/2018 at 02:56, Knighty2112 said:

I have a C8 on a 8S SE GoTo mount which I purchased separately from the OTA. The C8 can be a little tricky to balance fully on the mount, especially with heavier loads fitted to the back of the scope, as there is a limit with the original dovetail of how far forward you can set the scope in the mount clamp to balance it correctly on the mount. I got over this by screwing onto the original dovetail bar another smaller dovetail bar which allows the back part of the telescope to be clear away from the clamp so that you can balance it much better. Since doing that it works much better, but not sure if this mount would give you long exposures required for DSO imaging. I find it just fine for lunar and planetary imaging, but not got into anything more as yet to image with on the C8/GoTo mount combo. Just about to get a second hand Celestron AVX GoTo mount. 

Wanted to follow up on this.

Curious what model dovetail you bought and did it come with screws that just connect the two together somehow?

By balance did you mean to keep it from wanting to move in elevation through bumping it etc?

Last nite i had about 3" to the right of the mount (if you go by your picture about 3" of dovetail bar extending to the right).. i targeted a nebula, must have been near zenith, my cmos + barlow hit into the mount area when it aimed up, so actually i think i need it further back, almost with the mount more centered.. the issue with centering i found, was that as it moved in elevation it was slipping due to being top heavy from the centering (i think it was mentioned there is a way to adjust the tension, manually, unsure, might be the ultimate fix)..

So i'm not sure if this added dovetail would help with keeping the mount further towards the middle of the scope or not.

I cant seem to find too many 8se pics showing the ideal position in relation to the mount to tell.

 

I also cant get perfect 2 star alignment, always off by maybe 1/2" in the 9x50 scope when i target a planet, not a big bother, but maybe this is the norm?