Help needed to setup my video astronomy kit

[Guest]

Hi. Just wondering if anyone who lives near me and does video astronomy may consider helping me to start up with my setup. I live in Hertfordshire.

I have a Minitron mono camera along with a video monitor. I set it up last night ,but realised that my understanding iis probably way short or the mark to even get it started.

[RobertI]

I would love to help, but don't live near enough.  Plus I only have experience of CCDs for EAA, hopefully someone out there can help. 

[Guest]

Thanks Robert. I have just found out that there is a Springer book by Joseph Ashley on how to set up.

[shirva]

   Not as easy as it looks,. But we've all been there and were all here to help solve problems.

If you can give us more information on what scope you are using and what the problem is in the setting up,,I have no doubt at all the folk on here can help solve it.

I don't have a minute in camera, but I have done a lot on the analogue side,

Samsung,watec,phil dyer cameras.multi camera array, CCTV DVR,.

[Guest]

Thankyou for your replies. I am going to buy the Springer book and read up. Perhaps get back then.

Martin

[noah4x4]

This is the EAA and AP set up I have just completed after a year of developing my AP and EEA skills initially using a Nikon DSLR (which I reckon is much more challenging than with an Atik or ZWO CCD/CMOS camera).  I do think it wise to consider both potential EAA and AP needs to avoid ill-considered investment in one resulting in unnecessary expense to embrace the other. My aim was both EAA and wireless....plus a lot of AP!  This might give you some  broad ideas:...

TELESCOPE (n.b. others are available!);

Celestron Evolution 8 Alt-Az controlled wirelessly by an Android tablet running SkySafari. I align, GoTo and fine adjust remotely via this lightweight hand held portable device. I find that this (tablet) controller being small and wholly portable is useful as it can be used either indoors or outdoors close to the scope. Much more flexible than (say) ASCOM, Stellarium and hence a tethered Laptop. Celestron WiFi also works well with their GEM scopes (e.g. using a SkyPortal external WiFi accessory rather than the Evolutions internal WiFi). Other manufacturers have wireless solutions too.

I then have on order a Starlight MKIT20 WL wireless motor to drive my Featherlight Microfocuser (cheaper DIY options are possible).  But currently I simply manually focus on Infinity by locally viewing on Laptop A situated close to the telescope (see later). Once major focus is complete, it tends to hold its adjustment suffice for EAA, but I am aiming for total wireless control. There is some autofocus functionality in most software solutions too.

CAMERA

You mention using a camera with 'video' output (presumably SVideo). I have a sneaking suspicion that this could be more challenging than modern USB solutions. Sorry, I have no knowledge of Mintron cameras.

I am currently using a Nikon D5200 24 megapixel DSLR that has 'live view'; using software Digicamcontrol.com and Backyard Nikon running on Laptop A located near 'scope.  Connection to laptop is by USB3 cable.

POLAR ALIGNMENT

To date, I have been polar aligning on a Celestron Evolution Wedge. I am confident it is probably easier on  GEM. However, I have on order an Atik Horizon CMOS camera and HYPERSTAR as life is challenging with DSLR on wedge. Whilst I have mastered that, I have found it is tediously time consuming messing about with EQNorth and repeated Polar Aligns to converge the Polar Alignment Error down to the few arc-seconds necessary for long exposure AP with the DSLR  (EAA is fine). The wedge is also very heavy and time consuming to set up. By contrast, HYPERSTAR will allow me to image at F2; no polar align; no wedge necessary; 30 second exposures etc.

The decision; go for GEM or Alt-Az + Wedge or Alt-Az + Hyperstar can lead to much costly investment, but all are possible; and much depends on what you are looking to achieve. If only EAA hence with merely short exposure stacking on the fly, the simplicity of Alt-Az has merit, but if you then additionally pursue AP with an Alt-Az I suggest consider Hyperstar rather than wedge.  But as you have a GEM you don't have that worry. I mention this merely  to guide others! Not easy these decisions!

CAMERA CONTROL and REMOTE VIEWING

Above describes my original EAA/AP set up on laptop A when sat close to telescope or with a 10 metre active USB3 cable into my warm office. But the USB3 cable is really heavy and, a trip hazard etc. So I have since made my set up wholly wireless....

Here, I have simply set up Laptop B in my warm office running TeamViewer remote desktop on both. This controls Laptop A situated by the telescope. I have noticed zero control lag between them and the EAA image quality hasn't deteriorated between the two laptops. The heavy data crunching for AP is now being done on Laptop A over fast USB3 cable, whilst I 'live view' for EAA and control everything from inside 'mission control'  in my warm office from Laptop B.

TeamViewer or Microsoft Remote Desktop (or similar) seems to be the preferred solution for most folk until it becomes possible to wirelessly transfer massive amounts of camera data. 802.11ac standards do just about get us there, but finding the (wireless) software for this isn't easy. For example, Atik does have a more sophisticated wireless solution for its lesser cameras using 'Atik Air' over Raspberry Pi. But their support did recently confirm to me that a large sensor massive pixel count camera like an Atik Horizon the Pi might stutter. See next;

NEXT STEPS.

For data intensive cameras (typically USB3),  you probably do need a fast 802.11ac wireless network (like BT Home Hub 5 or a dedicated dual band router). For lesser cameras you might be able to minaturise by replacing laptop A with a Raspberry Pi or Intel Compute Stick. But beware cheap options (Pi or Atom processor etc) that deliver only slower 802.11n wireless. I have made enquiries about an NUC mini-computer (about the size of a cigarette packet) to replace laptop A. 

I have deliberately gone for 'out of the box' solutions like Celestron WiFi and Starlight MKIT20 WL wireless.  There are inevitably cheaper DIY solutions, but they tend to work only for set ups with first generation modest resolution low data volume CCD cameras. I have previous invested far  too much in previous DIY solutions that didn't have upgrade longevity. The (TeamViewer)  route I have taken should resolve the challenge for big chip/large pixel beasts like Atik Horizon or ZWO AS1600 whilst I wait for better wholly wireless data transfer software. But even when available they will need a 'server' and 'slave' dual computer set up.  Lesser solutions (like Raspberry Pi)  might work fine for many low pixel cameras, but I wanted an upgrade path to the best available cameras.  I will post again when I have my Atik Horizon, but the above works superbly with my 24 megapixel DSLR that can't be too far behind in data demands (albeit a smaller chip). Frankly, I suspect Hyperstar will be the game changer for me. The wedge is workable, but I wouldn't recommend, especially for novices.

[RobertI]

15 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

This is the EAA and AP set up I have just completed after a year of developing my AP and EEA skills initially using a Nikon DSLR (which I reckon is much more challenging than with an Atik or ZWO CCD/CMOS camera).  I do think it wise to consider both potential EAA and AP needs to avoid ill-considered investment in one resulting in unnecessary expense to embrace the other. My aim was both EAA and wireless....plus a lot of AP!  This might give you some  broad ideas:...

TELESCOPE (n.b. others are available!);

Celestron Evolution 8 Alt-Az controlled wirelessly by an Android tablet running SkySafari. I align, GoTo and fine adjust remotely via this lightweight hand held portable device. I find that this (tablet) controller being small and wholly portable is useful as it can be used either indoors or outdoors close to the scope. Much more flexible than (say) ASCOM, Stellarium and hence a tethered Laptop. Celestron WiFi also works well with their GEM scopes (e.g. using a SkyPortal external WiFi accessory rather than the Evolutions internal WiFi). Other manufacturers have wireless solutions too.

I then have on order a Starlight MKIT20 WL wireless motor to drive my Featherlight Microfocuser (cheaper DIY options are possible).  But currently I simply manually focus on Infinity by locally viewing on Laptop A situated close to the telescope (see later). Once major focus is complete, it tends to hold its adjustment suffice for EAA, but I am aiming for total wireless control. There is some autofocus functionality in most software solutions too.

CAMERA

You mention using a camera with 'video' output (presumably SVideo). I have a sneaking suspicion that this could be more challenging than modern USB solutions. Sorry, I have no knowledge of Mintron cameras.

I am currently using a Nikon D5200 24 megapixel DSLR that has 'live view'; using software Digicamcontrol.com and Backyard Nikon running on Laptop A located near 'scope.  Connection to laptop is by USB3 cable.

POLAR ALIGNMENT

To date, I have been polar aligning on a Celestron Evolution Wedge. I am confident it is probably easier on  GEM. However, I have on order an Atik Horizon CMOS camera and HYPERSTAR as life is challenging with DSLR on wedge. Whilst I have mastered that, I have found it is tediously time consuming messing about with EQNorth and repeated Polar Aligns to converge the Polar Alignment Error down to the few arc-seconds necessary for long exposure AP with the DSLR  (EAA is fine). The wedge is also very heavy and time consuming to set up. By contrast, HYPERSTAR will allow me to image at F2; no polar align; no wedge necessary; 30 second exposures etc.

The decision; go for GEM or Alt-Az + Wedge or Alt-Az + Hyperstar can lead to much costly investment, but all are possible; and much depends on what you are looking to achieve. If only EAA hence with merely short exposure stacking on the fly, the simplicity of Alt-Az has merit, but if you then additionally pursue AP with an Alt-Az I suggest consider Hyperstar rather than wedge.  But as you have a GEM you don't have that worry. I mention this merely  to guide others! Not easy these decisions!

CAMERA CONTROL and REMOTE VIEWING

Above describes my original EAA/AP set up on laptop A when sat close to telescope or with a 10 metre active USB3 cable into my warm office. But the USB3 cable is really heavy and, a trip hazard etc. So I have since made my set up wholly wireless....

Here, I have simply set up Laptop B in my warm office running TeamViewer remote desktop on both. This controls Laptop A situated by the telescope. I have noticed zero control lag between them and the EAA image quality hasn't deteriorated between the two laptops. The heavy data crunching for AP is now being done on Laptop A over fast USB3 cable, whilst I 'live view' for EAA and control everything from inside 'mission control'  in my warm office from Laptop B.

TeamViewer or Microsoft Remote Desktop (or similar) seems to be the preferred solution for most folk until it becomes possible to wirelessly transfer massive amounts of camera data. 802.11ac standards do just about get us there, but finding the (wireless) software for this isn't easy. For example, Atik does have a more sophisticated wireless solution for its lesser cameras using 'Atik Air' over Raspberry Pi. But their support did recently confirm to me that a large sensor massive pixel count camera like an Atik Horizon the Pi might stutter. See next;

NEXT STEPS.

For data intensive cameras (typically USB3),  you probably do need a fast 802.11ac wireless network (like BT Home Hub 5 or a dedicated dual band router). For lesser cameras you might be able to minaturise by replacing laptop A with a Raspberry Pi or Intel Compute Stick. But beware cheap options (Pi or Atom processor etc) that deliver only slower 802.11n wireless. I have made enquiries about an NUC mini-computer (about the size of a cigarette packet) to replace laptop A. 

I have deliberately gone for 'out of the box' solutions like Celestron WiFi and Starlight MKIT20 WL wireless.  There are inevitably cheaper DIY solutions, but they tend to work only for set ups with first generation modest resolution low data volume CCD cameras. I have previous invested far  too much in previous DIY solutions that didn't have upgrade longevity. The (TeamViewer)  route I have taken should resolve the challenge for big chip/large pixel beasts like Atik Horizon or ZWO AS1600 whilst I wait for better wholly wireless data transfer software. But even when available they will need a 'server' and 'slave' dual computer set up.  Lesser solutions (like Raspberry Pi)  might work fine for many low pixel cameras, but I wanted an upgrade path to the best available cameras.  I will post again when I have my Atik Horizon, but the above works superbly with my 24 megapixel DSLR that can't be too far behind in data demands (albeit a smaller chip). Frankly, I suspect Hyperstar will be the game changer for me. The wedge is workable, but I wouldn't recommend, especially for novices.

Very interesting info, I think it would be worth starting another thread on this to get some comments/reactions on your setup. ?

[noah4x4]

Will do on delivery of my Atik Horizon (Santa is late!). I only know one other person that has one and whilst the images are awesome folk are still working out the best wireless solutions for  remote EEA observing (similar with the ZWO AS1600).

This set up works brilliantly with my 24 megapixel Nikon DLSR but the Atik Horizon is a serious beast with huge chip/pixel count. However, it has an internal buffer designed to overcome any data transfer issues caused by (say) USB2. I am instead using USB3 and fast 802.11ac wireless with my DSLR , but I want to try the Atik with slower USB2 and 802.11n wireless speeds. That will help assess if the more sophisticated 'Atik Air' and Raspberry Pi 3 might work. Sadly, Atik Air is NOT a windows, Android or IOS APP and Raspberry Pi 4 (USB3/802.11ac) is not due until 2019. Hence, the quest for Windows 10 solutions. Atik Infinity software (Win) s awesome for EEA, so hopefully Atik will also adapt Atik Air for Windows soon,  but somebody has mentioned to me they are seeking a software developer!

My second laptop is also a quite slow Windows 7 machine and I want to assess the specification required for its replacement mini-computer. I am sure my approach works in theory with ANY camera, but (in practice) it may stutter with upper end camera specifications if some components are older slower technology and hence challenged. Hence my caution to avoid encouranging folk to rush out and buy two cheap (slow) laptops.

[Tomatobro]

I recently placed a RP 3 on my mount to use with an Atik 314L. The operating system download and installation onto a 2 gig SD card was straight forward. Plugged the RP into the BT router and followed the Atik air instructions to set it up. The only issue I had was that the RP is not tolerant of 5 volt supply line droops (I used a "5 volt" Phone backup battery) which did not work. Used a 3 amp supply and it worked fine.

If you see the red power led on the PI flashing during boot up it will not work.

I know the camera is fairly modest by today's standards but its down load speed looks to be the same as a wired USB 2. I am using the Atik infinity software for the camera.

[noah4x4]

On 14/01/2018 at 17:12, Tomatobro said:

I recently placed a RP 3 on my mount to use with an Atik 314L. The operating system download and installation onto a 2 gig SD card was straight forward. Plugged the RP into the BT router and followed the Atik air instructions to set it up. The only issue I had was that the RP is not tolerant of 5 volt supply line droops (I used a "5 volt" Phone backup battery) which did not work. Used a 3 amp supply and it worked fine.

If you see the red power led on the PI flashing during boot up it will not work.

I know the camera is fairly modest by today's standards but its down load speed looks to be the same as a wired USB 2. I am using the Atik infinity software for the camera.

Raspberry Pi is fine for smaller sensor/modest pixel cameras but may struggle at the higher end. It can only handle USB2 and 802.11n WiFi. Celeron and Atom processors are also prone to struggle at the higher end. Power is another issue as you have discovered. With the advent of more CMOS cameras and hence prices of larger sensor/many pixel cameras potentially falling it might be prudent to invest in more computing power, if only to future proof your EAA set up. I eventually decided to purchase an Intel NUC with i5 processor and 802.11ac WiFi. I don't perceive I have too much surplus for a wholly wireless set up and Atik Horizon camera.