What does it take to be a professional astronomer?

[adrastea]

I'm just curious - what does it take to become a professional astronomer or astrophysicist? I'm guessing that you have to have a very good degree in astrophysics from a top University, a PhD, and loads of additional skills in IT, electronics, mechanics etc... which isn't good for me as I've got an only vaguely relevant degree from a fairly minor Uni, but is it possible, in the very long run, to go from being an amateur to a professional? Any advice in that instance? That's my goal, though it'll probably take me at least 6 years to finish my OU degree, which is my second degree and is in astronomy / physics. I know that, as a career, it's a very competitive field and funding is, well... I just hope the current funding situation has changed by the time I graduate. It would be really good to hear some pointers from pro (or semi-pro) astronomers. Most useful would be any advice or pointers on good ways to fill my time between now and finishing my degree. Ideas about relevant jobs, work experience, even volunteering etc., would be really useful. I did ask my careers advisory service but they were less than useful....

(BTW by professional I just mean anyone who makes all or a percentage of their income from astronomy-related activities.)

Hope no-one minds me asking.

Maya.

[coatesg]

I'm not a professional (wouldn't it be great?), but you'll most likely need to have a doctorate, after which you get to work your way through being a post-doc and onwards. The pay of a post-doc isn't huge (not bad, but not huge - and remember you have at least 7 years of full time study plus the debt of being a student - often longer!)

However, there's a possibility that you could earn a living doing astronomy related stuff without a doctorate, like working in a museum, planetarium, etc. Alternatively, there's the aerospace industry, instrumentation and computing that all goes to support research.

The NMM have a bit of a page here:

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.2417

Worth also remebering that astronomers spend very little time using telescopes - and often they will simply request an observation and receive the data when it's done - the best jobs must be the support astronomers who actually sit at the scopes and support the observations! Like:

http://www.newscientistjobs.com/jobs/job/jcmt-support-astronomer-level-12-hi-hawaii-10368599.htm

Cool!!

[thing]

A tough line to get into. There's a massive thread on the OU physics site devoted to the topic of not being able to get jobs as astrophysicists. However, I'm in a 'tough' job to make a living out of, I wanted it badly enough so now I've got it. If you want it, go for it, but go for it 100%.

[adrastea]

If you want it, go for it, but go for it 100%.

That's where I've made my mistake... when I dropped out of astrophysics years ago I convinced myself I didn't care, and that I'd be quite happy going in a different direction. The good thing is that the path I've chosen isn't COMPLETELY irrelevant (marine science - I have a harder time convincing the marine scientists that it's relevant to astronomy than I do to the astronomers), but it's not relevant enough to jump straight into a PhD (I did try).

The scary thing is that I've already spent 4 years at Uni, am £25,000 in debt because of it, can't get a real job in my field as I have no passion for it and know now that I'm not going to be able to let astrophysics go, ever. Trouble is I also can't go back to studying full time, so that's another 7 years for the physics degree PLUS, say, another 3 years for a PhD. I'm not worried about spending 3 years doing a PhD because it's still original research, so it must still feel like you've "made it" even if you haven't... but I might even have to do another MSc beforehand which would be another year and another five grand. By this point I'll have spent 15 years in higher education before I even get the chance to get a relevant postdoc position.

But there's nothing else for me to do. Nothing else I care about - really, I've tried them all. I do biology, writing, customer service etc., all half-heartedly. I don't want to live my whole life half-heartedly!!

My medium term aim is to try and get an IT job which will at least help me build up the kinds of skills I think I might need. I've wasted so much time already, I can't imagine wasting any more. In fact every job I apply for (I'm in that fun "graduate recruitment market" situation right now) I can't help but mentally wondering what the potential is.

Even if I couldn't be a research astronomer I just don't think I could stand to work anywhere other than in the space industry in general. Even if that ends up being a software engineer for a communications satellite. I know what I want to be and where I should be, I just ended up being somewhere else. Even when I was doing my Masters I was most interested in the parts relevant for astrobiology (e.g., extremophiles, antarctica etc). I even wanted to do my dissertation on "comparative oceanography" - i.e., tidal forces on Europa.

I may not know loads about which Messier object is where but I do know my science.... I just can't prove that I know it without another degree. Hopefully by the time I graduate this time around I'll be a decent amateur astronomer as well as having the scientific background.

Thank you coatesg for the links, I'll go through them now. The trouble is, all the careers advice are for school kids, not bemused biology graduates in their early twenties! That's what really worries me. By the time I qualify, I'll not just be competing with people my own age with experience, but the brightest and best kids 10 years younger than me with flawless academic records and genuis-level IQs.

Not only that, but even if I do get the job I dream of, I'll probably have to move a lot, which will be harder I think because I'll be like, 30, and settled in my life. Oh well.

It all sounds really tough and scary, but then, again - what else am I going to do? I just can't keep my concentration on anything that isn't related to astronomy, which is probably a good indication........

[thing]

You're still young (believe it or not) and I assume you have no ties. The end shot is this, you will never be happy unless you work in an astronomy/space related field, so you have to do something about it now. Not think about it and regret not doing anything when you are stuck in a job you don't like. Forget about the money, the most important thing is to do what you want to do.

[timetraveller]

i totally agree with the last post life is way to short to live it full of regrets especially on the type of work you have done or not as the case may be i have trodden that particular pathway to destruction myself and it is quite clear that you will never ever be happy until you are truly fullfilling your passion as an idea what about seeing if you could get involved in Near Earth Objects research it may mean paying out for a a decent large appateur telescope and a decent camera setup but its a field were loads more telescopes need to be pointed at a very big sky

[Eclipse]

I want to die regretting the things I have done - not the things I haven´t done.

[adrastea]

You're still young (believe it or not) and I assume you have no ties.

Well that's not strictly true - I'm married, have a mortgage etc. I know that complicates things even further but I don't want to use him as an excuse to not chase my dreams - that's not fair on him - it makes it harder but yeah, as everyone has said, I don't want to live with regrets. I've spoken about this with my husband so I know it won't be easy - even if I had the chance I wouldn't be able to just run off to Mauna Kea or something. But there are women astronomers, there are women astronomers who are married and have kids, male astronomers who are married and have kids - I don't know if the situation is different than in any other part of academia. Besides, there are space companies, like Logica and EADS Astrium, who are based in the UK, there are all the telecom companies, and as time traveller says, there are near-earth observation watches, there's - I don't know - private enterprises etc. All those engineers, technicians, software developers, scientists, researchers... not just astronomers sitting under a telescope but manufacturers, designers, educators, faculty members, theoretical physicists, satellite technicians... I think any one of those fields I would be happy in. I don't care about the money - people who do what they really want to do have a different kind of richness and besides in my own experience people who are really passionate tend to be successful in the long run anyway (idealism I know). There are obviously loads of other fields related to the space industry that I know I wouldn't be happy in - finance, admin, that kind of thing. I guess I have a pretty good idea where I do and don't want to go after all.

[cygnusx1]

Maya, never say you've wasted time doing courses/degrees, you've gained a lot of invaluable knowledge, that you will no doubt need in future, even if not directly its the thought processes you've learnt to employ not necassarilylwhat you have learnt- besides education is paramount IMO, never wasted, i only wish I'd had the determination and dogged persistance like you, I ended up working after a acquiring a measely B.Sc in Maths,App Maths + Comp Sci!

[Eclipse]

Cygnus, you said it yourself, no education is ever wasted time. And I think a B.Sc in maths commands great respect from everyone, never call it measly!! Well done.

[Macavity]

I think, as long as one remains aware that "Science" is also a JOB - And quite often, like any other employment, is prey to any number of pathologies... managerial blunderers, "psycho" work colleagues, petty jealousies, "jobsworths", "politicians", male chauvenists, "lazy [expletives]", drudge and boredom etc., you should be largely O.K. :mrgreen:

On a positive note, do LOOK carefully at any specific group/organisation etc., you propose to join. It's just that, with many "vocational" jobs, conditions and (personal) rewards can vary quite a lot (Law unto themselves)! Also, preferably find something that isn't going to be "cancelled" by some future government "cuts" too...

[AstroTiger]

i totally agree with whats being said

It was my dream to become an astronomer, indeed its all i ever wanted. I suppose i have a slight dyslexia for maths.

My scientific career was finished when i recieved a third for my chemistry degree. Then i was never such a great chemist. My heart wasn't do much in it, though i did work my butt of to get it.

Tried @ teacher training after hated it.

Ended up as many ex scientists do, in IT.

But what this does make me think is, back in the beginning where scientists were wealthy clergy. They would still attend their church duties while doing and carrying out research. Purely of course because the clergy paid.

What i am saying is, there is nothing to stop you doing research while doing your full time job. I know its not the same, but its better than nothing. It could even lead to some professional involvement (like Humason with hubble)

I was chatting with a Phd student at Hatfield uni. I was under the impression she was looking down on my status. But got the feeling from her she was struggling to remain in research astronomy, getting paid for it.

Another who may end up in IT possibly.

Good luck to her anyway, good luck to you to

It is a shame we cannot attract more professional astronomers here, do we have many? I would nice to be kept informed about the cutting edge

AT

[adrastea]

Maya, never say you've wasted time doing courses/degrees, you've gained a lot of invaluable knowledge, that you will no doubt need in future, even if not directly its the thought processes you've learnt to employ not necassarilylwhat you have learnt- besides education is paramount IMO, never wasted, i only wish I'd had the determination and dogged persistance like you, I ended up working after a acquiring a measely B.Sc in Maths,App Maths + Comp Sci!

I would never say that Maths, App. Maths and Computer Science is measly - it sounds great actually, I suppose my initial response is "I wish I had the brains..."

I do agree that education IS really important and when I applied for my PhD (turned down of course - thank you very much STFC) the supervisor was initially very encouraging about my "unconventional" background. I've had more professional astronomers than marine biologists (two, as opposed to none ) encourage my "other" interests. That encourages me a little.

But, yes, it's a very snobby field. I'm well aware of that. I've faced academic snobbery so much, especially in the last year and it turned me away from marine science. I just thought that I couldn't put up with a lifetime of nastiness in a field I cared nothing for. I know I could put up with it if I was doing something I enjoyed, though, because I have before. I think career satisfaction gives you a kind of immunity to the:

managerial blunderers, "psycho" work colleagues, petty jealousies, "jobsworths", "politicians", male chauvenists, "lazy [expletives]", drudge and boredom etc.,

Sometimes I think science is MORE prone to some of these things than other fields. At least in, say, marketing, everyone hates each other but they at least have the decency to be two-faced about it

I was talking to a theoretical physicist friend who was, briefly, praising my interest in astrophysics. He asked me what kind of theoretical research I wanted to do, and I replied, "oh, I think it will be more observational." The conversation came to an abrupt halt. When I dropped out of Astrophysics (I was also at Hatfield uni), I felt vulnerable at all the "meanness" and intellectual in-fighting. But I've seen enough of other fields now to just think that people are, in general, mean... especially when they feel threatened by someone else who might, potentially, steal their job / funding / research proposal / results.

AstroTiger, it's interesting what you've said. I really relate to it a lot - especially about IT being the pool for ex-scientists. I do really like computers though, I always have, and I probably will end up in an IT whilst I finish my physics degree but I don't see it as the "consolation prize," but more another place where I can learn about things that will undoubtedly be useful in astronomy. Plus, I enjoy it. (So if anyone has any tips about getting into IT with a less than relevant degree, I'd love to hear them!!)

Just one more thing about independent research - that's something I'm planning, too. Through things like www.transitsearch.org and maybe saving up for as many cool instruments as I possibly can (I love your Coronado PST, astrotiger), I do think a lot of work can be achieved by amateurs.

Besides, not EVERY professional is a snob with an IQ higher than the temperature of the sun's photosphere and an ego to match - there are a lot of people who struggled for years to get the hang of astrophysics and suddenly had their "aha" moment because they just couldn't bear to give up. Even if you only meet one or two people like that in the course of a career, I think those are the ones who give you hope to never give up.

I'm also thinking of working in science communication - possibly just an astro-blog for now. It would be nice to write about professional developments for an amateur audience as I think the whole world could benefit from knowing more about what's going on in those expensive and shiny research labs...

Besides, what else is an unconventional background good for ?

[Viking]

Jump straight into a Phd, probably not.

As a route in, why not a MPhil or a MSc by Research in some related field. They don't have to be full time, the important thing is a good supervisor.

In the meantime, why not undertake personal research and try to get it published. Thats what a lot of the "game" is about, your publication record.

Dr. John

(definitely not science)

[AstroTiger]

i think a lot of people are heading down this route as well

like

Simon Singh

Luci Green

Chris Lintott

all very gifted scientists, but also offer to teach as well.

The former has written a truly fab book.

Luci Green i believe is looking to start up a website devoted to the sun, where amateurs like us can all contribute to this other fast growing science.

I would not offer that IT is a consolation prize either, i do enjoy it, though there are times i am completely envious of those who study for a living, now there is a job.

I have for example chosen to specialise in the sun (the only major thing not hampered by the dreaded light pollution)

Another reason, well, understand our nearest star, in time, understand the unverse.

AT

[thing]

Maya, never say you've wasted time doing courses/degrees, you've gained a lot of invaluable knowledge, that you will no doubt need in future, even if not directly its the thought processes you've learnt to employ not necassarilylwhat you have learnt- besides education is paramount IMO, never wasted, i only wish I'd had the determination and dogged persistance like you, I ended up working after a acquiring a measely B.Sc in Maths,App Maths + Comp Sci!

I would never say that Maths, App. Maths and Computer Science is measly - it sounds great actually, I suppose my initial response is "I wish I had the brains..."

I do agree that education IS really important and when I applied for my PhD (turned down of course - thank you very much STFC) the supervisor was initially very encouraging about my "unconventional" background. I've had more professional astronomers than marine biologists (two, as opposed to none ) encourage my "other" interests. That encourages me a little.

But, yes, it's a very snobby field. I'm well aware of that. I've faced academic snobbery so much, especially in the last year and it turned me away from marine science.

You ought to try music.........I was an aircraft engineer by profession, gave it all up some years ago to pursue my dream of being a professional musician. I make a decent living out of it (after a lot of extremely hard work and hard times) but it's absolutely shot through with envy, egos, elitism, you name the worst traits of humanity and music has it's cupful. Having said that I still get up in the morning and think I'm a lucky so and so. I would imagine that anything that humans are involved in is the same.

[dph1nm]

It is a shame we cannot attract more professional astronomers here, do we have many? I would nice to be kept informed about the cutting edge

AT

Oh I think there are a few of us lurking around ...

Actually, someone mentioned that professionals don't get much time observing - it maybe isn't as bad as you think if you contemplate how many clear nights we actually get in the UK! After all, you do get to go to a dark site with (probably) at least a 60% clear rate.

NigelM

[dph1nm]

Oh, and another thing. You do not need to have done an undergraduate degree in Astronomy/Astrophysics to get an astro PhD place. Physics is the more usual, or maybe Maths.

NigelM

[adrastea]

Hi Nigel, nice to hear from you. Got any tips? What do you think the likelihood of getting a PhD is if you DON'T come from a strong background in physics or maths?

In marine biology, the easiest way to get a top job at one of the really good research institutes is to undertake loads of voluntary work. There is sort of a "standard" model of experience which is generally looked for, including diving, offshore experience, surveying etc. It's a good way of networking, proves willingness, teaches loads of skills and is great fun. Getting a PhD in marine biology is virtually impossible without these extra, "unwritten" experiences. Is there an equivalent to this in astronomy? Any "expected" skills? I suppose programming is the only one I can really think of. I don't know of any astro-volunteering programs, or opportunities to get involved with research or visit top observatories. What about professional bodies? As in biology, there seems like a lot of good ones and a lot of irrelevant ones. Any that are mandatory requirements for future PhDs?

Hope you don't mind all the questions would love to hear more about what you do, if you can spare the time

[dph1nm]

Hmm - trouble is money of course. If you have a small fortune and can fund yourself then it is much easier, but to get an STFC grant you really need a good class of degree in a relevant subject. I seem to remember we did once have a mature student who did a self-funded MSc with us. I don't really think there are any 'expected' skills - people just pick up stuff as they go along (including programming, which comes as a shock to some!). The RAS (Royal Astronomical Society) is the main professional astro body - many people are in the IOP (Institute of Physics) as well.

As previously mentioned there are opportunities for engineers, telescope operators and the like at observatories, but you would mostly have to live abroad to do that (there are some groups in the UK who make observatory instruments who might hire engineers or optical designers I guess).

The link below might give you some idea of what I do!

http://star-www.dur.ac.uk/~nm/pubhtml/herschel/herschel.html

NigelM