CCDs - need some advice!

[adrastea]

I haven't been here for ages, but basically I'm thinking about getting a new telescope & CCD. I've decided that I'll probably get a NexStar 130SLT, because I do struggle with navigating through space (I'm learning but also really want a GOTO- don't judge me too harshly on that!). I've recently had to sell my film camera & lenses, so right now I'm stuck with a really cheap digital camera. I really want a CCD to go with the scope, but actually don't really know where to start looking, and what to look for. Does anyone have any advice for a decent CCD? I'm hoping to mainly photograph deep sky objects but also planets & the moon as well. I'm well aware that I'm probably demanding the impossible but my budget is around £300 max. (But feel free to recommend things that cost more if you think they're really good, because although I'd like one straight away I might consider waiting and saving up if that's the best option (but I'm unlikely to spend more than about £600 even if I do save up)). Any advice would be much appreciated.

[centroid]

Hi .....?

As you apparently don't have a particularly good 'every day' camera, perhaps you should consider a DSLR, which would serve you well as an 'every day, and an astro camera.

If you look in the Deep Sky section of the forum, you will find many excellent astro images, captured using a DSLR, such as the Canon 300D, 350D, and 400D. With a budget of £300 pounds you should be able to 'pick up' something like a good secondhand 350D.

If you wait until your budget stretches to £600, then the option of a dedicated astro imaging CCD camera, such as one of the Atik range becomes feasible.

Be aware though, that astro imaging requires much more from the alignment and tracking of the mount, than does visual observing.

Dave

[adrastea]

Be aware though, that astro imaging requires much more from the alignment and tracking of the mount, than does visual observing.

Actually, that's something i've been thinking about literally for years. One of the reasons I haven't bought a scope before now is precisely that. I can't see the point of buying one that can't take decent pictures, since my whole world is (or has been, until recently) photography. That's the reason I haven't actually bought the 130SLT yet... but I thought (and might be mistaken) the benefit of a CCD over a DSLR is the ability to take sharp photos much more quickly than with a regular camera. Hmm, I suppose I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want advice or ideas I hadn't thought of, so (changing / adding to the subject slightly) - what's a really good scope for astrophotography? (Again, my telescope budget is around £300, stretching to about £800 with saving up if absolutely necessary).

[themos]

what's a really good scope for astrophotography?

The kind of scope that helps its owner win Picture Of The Week. Have a look!

[steppenwolf]

To be honest, you may be approaching the 'problem' from the wrong end! For astro-photography the most important thing you need is a solid equatorial mount that tracks well - no camera, CCD or otherwise will compensate for a poor mount. Sadly, although in other respects, the NexStar 130SLT is a nice piece of kit, it is not really suited to DSO astro-photography as it has an Alt/Az mount which means that you will be limited to exposure of less than 30 seconds because of 'field rotation' imparted by the mount tracking in two directions rather than the one direction of an equatorial mount.

The advice about buying a DSLR is sound advice as it will be an all round use purchase and you can get rid of your 'really cheap digital camera' and get more use out of the DSLR.

This is a huge subject and there is a ton of information on the Internet about it but, as a start, you might like to read my article here on my website as it addresses the fundamentals of imaging.

[adrastea]

(OK I just wrote a long thing but realised I contradicted myself twice and answered my own questions, so never mind...)

[EA2007]

As SteppenWolf quite rightly put, I would 'swerve' the SLT (by quite a wide margin) as it is not suitable for astro-imaging.

You need an EQ mount for this. Given your budget of £300 to £800 I would perhaps go for either the Celestron C6/C8 N-GT, Skywatcher 200p or Skywatcher 150p on a HEQ-5 mount.

The reason I put the C6/8 N-GT there is because although the mount is noisier than the HEQ-5 it is still sturdy and has the added bonus of Go-To. FLO is selling these for £515 and £595 respectively; http://firstlightoptics.com/products.php?cat=40

The Skywatchers are in my opinion on a better mount but given your budget perhaps a 150P on an EQ5 or HEQ-5 is your best bet; http://firstlightoptics.com/proddetail.php?prod=heq5 plus the 150P scope at £99 comes in at £479.

The bonus with the skywatcher scopes is that they come with a dSLR connection

and here an easter egg for you TESCO Direct are selling Canon 400D + Lens for £359 !! Bargain, for some stupid reason they are selling the 400D body only for £400, silly people!

[ianporter13]

and here an easter egg for you TESCO Direct are selling Canon 400D + Lens for £359 !! Bargain, for some stupid reason they are selling the 400D body only for £400, silly people!

and then you can £45 back from Canon. so that makes it £315

nice

Ian

[Macavity]

Oh... shame really - The [deleted] post seemed "alright to me" (tho' not wanting to cause controversy)

[Thinking] Isn't the essence of these things that you can afford it? (Is for me!) Without patronising, you seem a "sensible person" who (like me too?) has learnt by the odd mistake or several? I have enjoyed my (faltering) attempts at Alt-Az, "CMOS" Solar imaging. It may not be "state of the art", and being "stepwise", the most economical way of doing things either. (I DO sense I have wasted a LOT of money on "trying stuff out"). But take the technical advice here, assimilate it.... But in the long run, we're only young (relatively in my case) once! And a certain stubborness of purpose can sometimes surprise even the skeptics?

[adrastea]

Haha, I just wrote loads of questions about EQs but they've been answered before I even got around to posting them! Basically I was going to ask about whether a HEQ5 +scope was better than a CG-5 + scope, then was going to ask loads of questions about optics etc... though I do quite like the look of the C8-N.

Which brings me on to my other question. It seems that you can just add a few hundred £ here and there and jump from one mirror diameter to the next... I was just looking at the Skywatcher scopes and just thinking it's not much of a leap from, say, 200mm to 250mm, and I'm sure bigger is best, right? Or is it? I mean, I could get a HEQ5 + 10" 250PX (http://www.firstlightoptics.com/proddetail.php?prod=sw250pxheq5) for only £60 more than the C8-N goto.... so which is better? Leaving convenience (and my "I can't follow a map from the bus station let alone find my way around the flipping galaxy" incompetence for a moment), how does anyone ever decide what scope to get? Listen to reviews and ask for advice I suppose...

Macavity, yes, I know what you mean, and I'm not the kind of person to buy the cheapest thing if I can get the best (how obnoxious does that sound). But I AM on a budget, I am pretty broke, and looks like I'll be saving up anyway so I may as well save up for something really good. I suppose after a lot of expensive mistakes re: a lot of things, I'm far more cautious about listening to the advice of others even if my initial reaction is one of bewildered objection. I actually just want a kit that I can love and use for years.

Oh, one final (very off topic) question. "One day," I'd like to do research - planet hunting in particular. I know that amateurs can contribute, but I doubt very much on the kind of equipment we're talking about here. But if - just being really "out there" - I sort of decided to at least consider it, what kind of kit would I be looking at? And how very different would that be (not just in price but in spec) to the kinds of equipment I'm thinking about now? (Maybe that "background thought" explains some of my odd philosophizing, I don't know). I'm sure I'll change set up many times before being able to afford something good enough for research, but I don't know. It would be nice to think I could buy some relatively simple equipment (e.g., less than £1000 - is that simple!?) and be able to build upon it as time goes on rather than having to stop, swap and start again from scratch every time I need an upgrade.

Or maybe I'm being naive...

[thing]

You won't be able to do any planet hunting with an amateur set up. Or are you talking about hunting the planets that we already know about?

[steppenwolf]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to read your post before you deleted it - maybe that was a good thing?

I was just looking at the Skywatcher scopes and just thinking it's not much of a leap from, say, 200mm to 250mm, and I'm sure bigger is best, right? Or is it? I mean, I could get a HEQ5 + 10" 250PX

You could indeed get the 10" on the HEQ5 but then you would be over-taxing the otherwise excellent HEQ5 as it is (IMHO) marginal with the 10" especially for imaging. Sadly, astro-imaging is the most demanding of mistresses and if you want a good romp, you'll need a firm mattress (where do I get this carp from? :shock: ) so you must get the balance right between aperture and mount stability or it will all end in tears.

[adrastea]

You won't be able to do any planet hunting with an amateur set up.

Oh, I know.... I was just wondering (hypothetically) what kind of set-up WOULD be required for that kind of research. It's not something I feel I'll be able to do for a long time, but it IS something I want to do one day. It's just something that's at the back of my mind.

Unfortunately, I didn't get to read your post before you deleted it - maybe that was a good thing?

Lol it was more embarrassing for me than anything else - I made a rather silly mistake and misread something, then contradicted myself. I wasn't being especially mean. Not deliberately, anyway

You could indeed get the 10" on the HEQ5 but then you would be over-taxing the otherwise excellent HEQ5 as it is (IMHO) marginal with the 10" especially for imaging.

Ignoring the rather vivid images that popped into my head about mattresses and mistresses , I'm glad you cleared that up for me. I take it, then, that if I wanted a scope much bigger than about 8" I would need something like an EQ6? That's something that is certainly worth knowing. At the very least, I might just sit on it for a few months and let the bank balance accumulate. Shame this is such an expensive interest!

[steppenwolf]

I take it, then, that if I wanted a scope much bigger than about 8" I would need something like an EQ6? That's something that is certainly worth knowing.

Spot on! The problem is that for imaging DSOs, you need more that just the imaging 'scope and CCD - you need a guide 'scope (cheap is fine) as well to the overall payload starts to climb and, for example, an 8" Newtonian and an 80mm refractor with the necessary cameras put the HEQ5 at the edge of its performance envelope for imaging - for visual use it is not such a problem.

[EA2007]

Going on what has been said + my knowledge,

I would say that maybe you could look at getting the Celestron C6 or C8N-GT on the CG-5 mount and add a guide scope. Perhaps go for the 6 inch scope then the mount won't be pressured with the addition of the guide scope.

It gives you the benefit of goto and a low price but there are some draw backs i.e. no polar scope, noisey mount, no directSLR camera connection and you'll need a powertank.

That said you can get some cheap modded webcams / ccd's these days and I think you can even get a ccd which images and guides at the same time (might be wrong) so you may only need one scope.

Like you said though, take your time and ask plenty of questions, don't jump straigh into it. It is far easier to get a basic scope and learn that first than thinking astrophotography is easy.

[adrastea]

I don't particularly like asking loads of technical questions cus I feel like I must a) be boring people and sound rather stupid. But that's just because I'm a perfectionist and struggle with taking baby steps! I kind of know what it is I want to get out of astronomy - to see as much as possible, learn as much as possible, and do as much as possible. I don't really want to get something and have to replace it in a few years because I've run out of things to look at (I'm being semi-ironic but also semi-serious). Not only am I really ambitious but I've been "trying" to get into practical astronomy for a LONG time - I got my Tasco 114mm over ten years ago, I think I used it less than a dozen times, dragged it around for years in the hope that I might be able to get back into observing. I started studying astrophysics eight years ago - I really wanted to make astronomy my whole life. Well I dropped out and ended up training as a marine biologist instead, which after four years has lead to a dead end. I'm studying astronomy again, this time through the OU, and I'm determined to make it "work." Not just now but for my whole life. As I think I said somewhere, this isn't just a hobby for me. Once I finish my degree in like, another eight years time, I want to do a PhD in astrophysics. I want to make the most of the time between now and then, and do as much as I can as an amateur. I know loads of people have these dreams but I know too much of what it's like to NOT succeed to ever fail again. Whoops, nobody needs a biography. Anyway, the point is, this feels like a really big decision for me. I put far less thought into buying my flat than I have in buying a telescope (thought about the flat for a few months, and this has been years). I know at some point I'm just going to have to part with the cash and jump in at the deep end, but I don't want to feel that I've missed out on the opportunity to get a much better set-up because I was being too hasty. I'd rather save up for a few more months and get something that can last me for years than just buy something random hope that makes sense.

[adrastea]

(ps that was just a random rant and not aimed at anyone)

[Whippy]

I'd rather save up for a few more months and get something that can last me for years than just buy something random hope that makes sense.

Spot on. I did a bit of chopping and changing with my kit around last year because I used a 'scattergun' approach to buying items without really knowing what I wanted. Some of it stuck, some of it has been sold off with the inevitable losses that come with it. I'm not pretty much sorted with what I've got now and my recent foray into CCD imaging hasn't been cheap, but it's good quality gear that is going to serve me well for quite some time. Save your pennies and get the gear you want, you'll be happier and you'll actually save money in the long run. In the meantime, read, read and read some more. Get all the info you can and when you get your gear, you'll have at least half an idea of what you're doing.

Tony..

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

My take on your ranette is that you want to do, or at least have the facility to do, lots of stuff with your new proposed kit.

First off, if you want to measure stuff its easier if you can get images to feed into software, so you need an imaging capable mount. That makes it, probably, an HEQ5. This can be a Pro with goto and guide interface to start off, or a standard upgradeable, or a guide input but not goto inbetween version.

Secondly you need resolution, which means aperture, which means a reflector (unless you're made of money).

Then you need a piggy bank to collect enough cash to add a camera later.

HEQ5 Pro plus 200mm Newtonian reflector, it's my favourite 'scope so far, as it does loads of stuff well.

For practicality purposes, its a big thing and you'll need somewhere to keep it, so bear in mind the need for a big cupboard or garden shed.

Kaptain Klevtsov