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Pentax 10x50 PCF WP II - Good enough 10x50 ?

Dinosour23

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Dinosour23

Dinosour23

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Hi again ! 

a close friend is also searching for a handholding pair after I told him what I bought ....  Budget around 150usd~ 

After reading the binocularsky website I have narrowed it down to this Pentax model as seen in title... Seems like the author likes it.

My main question is - Is the  Proven Nikon Action EX really 50$ better ?

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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I was in the same quandary, between the Pentax PCF and Nikon AE. Based on the reviews I read, I bought the Nikon. The Pentax provides sharp views from edge to edge (or really close to it) whereas the Nikon has a drop in sharpness.

However the Nikon has a much larger FOV and therefore matches the Pentax in the same FOV, but has the benefit of a larger FOV for better framing of objects and for easier panning of the sky to find targets.

As handhelds, at 10x it will be slightly unstable. Only last week I bought a 8x42 which weights nearly 400 grams less and has nearly the same twilight factor, but it is much easier to hold steady.

Steadiness increases how deep you can go. Therefore do also read up on the usual tricks to hold the binoculars steady.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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Thanks !!

Would you still get the Nikon if the Pentax was 50 dollars cheaper ?

Do you recommend the x8 over the x10 then ? Because I see them both at a lower mag version ...

I actually viewed Comet Lovejoy with the Zeiss Terra 8x42, Nikon AE 10x50 and Celestron Skymaster 15x70.

The small binoculars showed more detail than the large one due to superior coatings, baffling and quality of optics, which goes to show that sometines aperture is not the most important thing.

If you want to do DSO binocular astronomy, start thinking 20x80 and bigger, with a small field of view but large objectives to bring in the faint fuzzies. For daytime use and nighttime astronomy of the comet catching, open cluster viewing, casual lunar, Milky way sweeping, learning the stars in constellations e.t.c., a 8x or 10x is your best bet.

If they were both the same price, I would still get the Nikon. I like large expansive fields of view. Both the Nikon and the Pentax are equally sharp up to the Pentax field stop, bu the Nikon provides even more FOV which even though not perfect, provides context and framing and a natural wide view of the heavens.

Anything above 10x DOES require mounting as the "shakes" actually reduce the effective aperture, so do consider this when you think of magnification factor. But I would be lying if I didn't admit to wanting 20-25x100 binoculars on a Universal Astronomics Unimount binocular mount...

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Paul73

Paul73

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Looking forward to hearing you thoughts. Binos are great. Telescopes may show more, but the freedom swoop around the sky on a whim and those lovely wide views make the telescopes seem a bit restrictive.

Nicos has got me thinking now......

Going completely the other way. I'm hankering after these http://www.firstlightoptics.com/vixen-binoculars/vixen-sg21x42-widefield-binoculars.html

Paul

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Dinosour23

Dinosour23

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I sure will ! Very excited to start my sessions... Hell, I have been observing every night for 20 minutes for the past year just using my eyes.. I can see how someone doing that in ancient times would want to invent a binocular of some sort and explore more :) 

Say guys, what is the Pentax 20X60 good for ? Kind of an in betweener..... 

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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I sure will ! Very excited to start my sessions... Hell, I have been observing every night for 20 minutes for the past year just using my eyes.. I can see how someone doing that in ancient times would want to invent a binocular of some sort and explore more :) 

Say guys, what is the Pentax 20X60 good for ? Kind of an in betweener.....

Sharp almost to the edge, high transmission rate (about 95% to 96%), making them behave like a standard 80mm binocular you would get from say Celestron, but a field of view of only 2.2 degrees!

That for me is a killer right there, but if you don't mind the narrow FOV, they are great binoculars. Obviously at that power they need to be mounted to give their best.

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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Some facts about binoculars:

1. The effective aperture is more than you think.

Since you have 2 small refractors basically, the increase in contrast from using both eyes translates to about a 40% increase in aperture if you were using a standard refractor. Therefore your 10x50 are actually behaving like a single 10x70 refractor with a field of view of 6.3 degrees!

The Pentax would provide effectively a single refractor operating at 20x84 and the Hilkinson  a single refractor operating at 10x98. However I would prefer the 20x84 rather than 10x98.

2. It's not just about the aperture, it's the combination of aperture and magnification.

As aperture provides more light to the eye to resolve detail, so does magnification assist in resolving more detail. Enter the "Twilight Factor" which is a number used to compare effectiveness of binoculars under low light conditions. Note that this applies to binoculars off SIMILAR quality as a binocular with better coatings and optical system will outperform a binocular with larger diameter (e.g. both my Zeiss (8x42) and Nikon (10x50) beat the c**p out of my Celestron 15x70).

The twilight factor is the multiplication of the size of the objective by the magnification and then you take the square root of that. The larger the factor the more detail you will be able to see in low light. Anything over 17 is considered to be appropriate for night time viewing. So, the Nikon has a twilight factor of 22.36. The Hilkinson as a twilight factor of 26.26. The Pentax a twilight factor of 34.34!!!

So, between the Hilkinson and the Pentax I would definitely go for the Pentax, IF I could have them mounted, otherwise at 20x when handheld there will be significant loss of effective aperture due to the "shakes", and I would do this as having the Nikon would satisfy my wide field requirements therefore the Pentax would complement the Nikon with much higher magnification and resolution. Again - the twilight factor applies ONLY when comparing similar quality binoculars and the Pentax are truly excellent at that price range.

I hope this helps  :grin:

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Dinosour23

Dinosour23

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That was an extremely interesting read !!!  You sure know your instruments :)

"Problem" is, I already purchased the Hilkinson at the heat of the moment on an ebay auction...  It is used, and less than half of it's 200GBP retail :) Figured why not take advantage of this deal as these are pretty rare so I see... Japanese fully multicoated optics ...  I don't even know if it's good yet.. It's on a Fedex truck :) 

So basically now I would really like the 10x50 as the more I read the more I understand that this should be my BFF instrument... 

But if the PENTAX 20x60 would require me to buy a mount over 100$ then I am afraid I am losing some of my minimalism philosophy :) If I can get a 50 dollar mount and throw in in the trunk then cool.  Otherwise it's a bit too much at this point, where I still have a lot of fundamentals to learn.

In that case I could relist the HILKINSON 11X70 and use the money to get the 20X60 if the difference is worth it. I like that dealing stuff anyway hehe :)

All in all I can total a lifetime of  daily joy for only 300 bucks :) 

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Dinosour23

Dinosour23

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Question is once again.... On paper, the Japanese made Hilkinson is a different class from the Pentax/Celestron etc.... So the twilight factor may be off ?  But who knows.. Nobody's got that binocular hehe ... Ive been told the Opticron 11X70 is the same binocular, but nobody's got that either haha 

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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Hilkinson is now owned by another company. Is this the binocular you are referring to?:

http://www.claritas-online.co.uk/hilkinson-11x70-jupiter-bcf

Or the old Hilkinson which was in a completely different housing (old style black rigid plastic)?

But back to the issue at hand:

The Hilkinson has two advantages over the Pentax:

1. It is still hand-held at 11 x 

2. It has a larger FOV than the Pentax

But it has three disadvantages:

1. at 11x it will not provide much more visual information than the 10x50 Nikons. You simply need more magnification, it's not just the aperture

2. At a massive 6.36mm exit pupil, these will behave like the 50mm during daytime and if you use them in moderately light polluted skies, it will actually again behave like the 50mm as it will also gather in all the light pollution and kill contrast. Only at really dark skies will it "behave" like a 70mm

3. Its coatings are probably not even close to Pentax quality.

So, the choice is actually yours in terms of what you prefer and what trade-offs you are willing to accept. If I was in your shoes, I would choose the Pentax as the Nikon is too close to the Hilkinson and mount it.

I am actually considering the Pentax 20x60 Vs another 20x80 with a parallelogram mount and a nice recliner chair, plus a red dot finder on a binobrak for general panning of the skies. At 20x I am not concerned about FOV but detail, so the Pentax are also on my list too as it will complement my existing binocular range.

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Dinosour23

Dinosour23

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Great explanation !  

What kind of mounting gear are we talking about ? I see mounts that are 400$ and above treated as basic... 

I am not YET ready to commit to these amounts of dollars, and also sacrifice portability... Unless those 50 dollar photo tripod that go up to 5 foot are sufficient ? 

http://www.amazon.com/Zeikos-ZE-TR201P-Includes-Carrying-Camcorders/dp/B001F8S576/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1420616390&sr=8-4&keywords=tripod+photo

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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Best of course is a parallelogram mount and tripod and the most basic runs at EUR 249:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p4718_Orion-Paragon-Plus-Binocular-Mount-and-Tripod.html

This one leaves a lot to be desired as it has only 3 degrees of motion. The best ones are currently sold by Universal Astronomics:

http://www.universalastronomics.com/

These allow you to get a lovely recliner chair and do your thing, but this represents a commitment of both funds and a bit of time to set up, as well as more gear to carry.

But a standard photo tripod and a very short stool will do, although you will be challenged with targets above 45 degrees (your neck will not be happy).

You will need a binocular mounting bracket for the tripod. I recommend this one which is metal and hence does not flex like them plastic ones:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p1402_TS-Binocular-Tripod-Adapter---attach-your-binocular-to-a-photo-tripod.html

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michael.h.f.wilkinson

michael.h.f.wilkinson

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Enjoy the 11x70s: The best bins are the ones you have access to ;)

Regarding hand-holding: this is a very personal thing, and whilst 10x is a good rule of thumb as the larger magnification you can hand-hold, it is by no means always true. I have hand-held 20x80 Vixen Ark binoculars, and usually hand-hold my 15x70s. I do get my p-mount out for longer runs, and that does improve matters, but in a comparison with a pair of Leica Trinovid 8x42s under dark skies (at Olly's place in the Provence), my Helios Apollo 15x70 really went deeper, despite the excellent coatings and just general quality of the Leica. I was really afraid my 15x70 would be left in the dust, but they held up well. The Helios Apollo (or any other United Optics BA-8 series) binoculars are by no means cheap, but they are excellent value for money. I am considering getting the 10x50 as well.

Regarding the difference between a single scope and binoculars, I made a comparison between my 15x70 binoculars and my APM 80mm F/6 triplet, at 15.5x here.

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nicoscy

nicoscy

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Nice comparison between the APM apo and the bins! 

I do agree that the 11x70 bins will draw more light under really dark skies, but magnification does play a role and the Nikon 10x50 should cover the 10x range. The 20x60 bins will provide some more eyecandy (i.e. more detail becoming resolved due to higher mag).

It's the massive exit pupil of the 11x70 bins that worry me if they will be used from a moderately light polluted area as then the benefit of aperture is reduced by the large exit pupil.

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