Messiers - Furthest North / South??

[Paul73]

There have been a number of threads about hunting for M7 et al low to the south. I had my 10" Dob on a garden table the other night in an attempt to get another couple of degrees out of the southern, hedge limited, horizon. So, on reading about Wbboid's exploits near Norwich on another thread, I got to wondering...

1/ Who has bagged M7 from furthest north?

2/ Who has bagged M81/82 from furthest south?

3/ What Lattitude is best for seeing all of the Messiers?

Paul

[ronin]

Cannot help on 1, 2 but as Charles Messier was French and I guess he was based in or around Paris then 48N would make sense as that is likely where he was when the catalogue came into being.

[acey]

M82 is at declination 69.7 deg, M7 is at -34.8 deg. Those are the horizon limits for observers at latitudes -20.3 deg and 55.2 deg, so anyone between those latitudes theoretically has a chance of seeing all the Messiers, though you need objects to rise sufficiently far above the horizon rather than lie exactly on it. I'm at 55.1 degrees and the most southerly Messier I've seen from this latitude is M83, which rises to 5 degrees above my horizon. The "best" place would depend on lots of factors, e.g. weather, and relative brightness of the objects (you would want the harder objects to rise higher in your sky). But there is certainly a large swathe of the Earth's surface where you can get good views of all of them (though northern Britain isn't in it).

[mjpfc]

I'm down at around 51 degrees and even though I have house to my south, I have a southern Gap and

a South-easterly Gap through towards the Seafront, and so can Pretty easily see all Messiers through

the 1st half of the year from my back Garden.

In late June, the low Scorpius/Sagittarius clusters and globs pass by to the south and M7 Dances a short way

along my back Garden Wall .

I can of course leave the house and look from the downs where they are up higher from any lighting

and are available for a much longer time and for more of the year. I have gotten used though to waiting

for the Messiers to show themselves at their allotted times: The ticking away of the year.

If I go out, its usually when hunting Comets or Faint NGC/IC Fuzzies needing a particular bit of sky or

just a darker location.

Certainly in UK south is best, as the northerly Ms are still near the Zenith and the Southerly ones are

just out of the horizon murk.

Mick

[AndyWB]

M7, bagged, 51 degrees 21 minutes North. It was low...

[Rapidray]

Hope you "bag it" in the very near future!

[dick_dangerous]

M7, bagged, 51 degrees 21 minutes North. It was low...

I've a feeling I pip you there by bagging M7 from 51 degrees and 42 minutes north...

DD

[Walshie79]

M4 and M19 are the most southerly I've seen so far, both around -26. 

I have seen Alpha Columbae (-34d 04') in the binoculars from the front garden, it literally grazes the hedge on the far side of the road; I haven't managed yet to see Kaus Australis (-34d 23') from it but I have from a hill about 5 miles south of here. It was well clear so I think I could probably get M7 from there. Hope to try soon.

[Walshie79]

Just went up to the fence at the end of the road which overlooks a flat field, and the horizon is pretty good to the south there. Managed to spot Kaus Australis naked eye, but couldn't spot M6 or M7 with the bins despite the right area of sky being clear and visible. Moon I suspect was the problem. I think they are possible from there.....

[Paul73]

Tantalising. I thought that I was there the other day but then realised that I had made the schoolboy error of mistaking Ascella for Kaus Astralis. Felt like a right muppet.. So had a look at M54 and prettended that I had planned it all along.

Paul

[AndyWB]

Well, I've only have a faint hint of M54 - there, but no detail - so I reckon that's still a good result.

If you can see Kaus Australis at the moment at about eleven to midnight BST, M7 is possible - it's the same or greater altitude. I'd recommend hunting down the smaller, but higher M6 first, though. It has always seemed brighter, to me (maybe 'cos of altitude) and it's not too hard to find M7 from there.

It might take a scope, though - when I saw them the other week, well, M7 wasn't exactly bright in the 130mm

[Paul73]

Well, I've only have a faint hint of M54 - there, but no detail - so I reckon that's still a good result.

If you can see Kaus Australis at the moment at about eleven to midnight BST, M7 is possible - it's the same or greater altitude. I'd recommend hunting down the smaller, but higher M6 first, though. It has always seemed brighter, to me (maybe 'cos of altitude) and it's not too hard to find M7 from there.

It might take a scope, though - when I saw them the other week, well, M7 wasn't exactly bright in the 130mm

Thanks for the tip. We are starting to run out of time for this year... But it is getting darker and once this moon is out of the way later in the week....

Paul

Paul

[acey]

According to my planisphere M7 is at its highest (i.e. due south) at about 11pm BST on July 21, 10pm on Aug 5, 9pm on Aug 20, 8pm on Sep 5. So there should still be plenty of chance to see it for those sufficiently far south.

[Paul73]

According to my planisphere M7 is at its highest (i.e. due south) at about 11pm BST on July 21, 10pm on Aug 5, 9pm on Aug 20, 8pm on Sep 5. So there should still be plenty of chance to see it for those sufficiently far south.

Yes. Although is is getting pretty nip & tuck at these latitudes.

Paul

[acey]

Sure, but it always rises to the same height (even if it's only just above your horizon), so it's a case of catching it when it's there, as long as the sky is sufficiently dark. At southern European latitudes it's visible to the naked eye (hence its nickname Ptolemy's Cluster - he saw it). I believe the brightest stars in the cluster are about mag 5.5 to 6, so even if the cluster as a whole can't be seen, it should be possible to get a few of its stars, if the exact location is known. But you really need to time it so that it will be on the meridian.

[Walshie79]

Around 20N +/-5 is probably the best latitude: there all Messiers rise to at least 30-35 degrees, with most a lot higher. Anywhere south of the equator and M81/82 are getting low. 

If Messier had been British, say living in the Midlands, I wonder how his catalogue would look? Probably some of the Scorpius/Sag objects would be missing, and he would have to include some other "comets" to catch up Lacaille. The Double Cluster, probably as 2 objects would surely be in, and maybe the Hyades as well?

[Paul73]

Around 20N +/-5 is probably the best latitude: there all Messiers rise to at least 30-35 degrees, with most a lot higher. Anywhere south of the equator and M81/82 are getting low. 

If Messier had been British, say living in the Midlands, I wonder how his catalogue would look? Probably some of the Scorpius/Sag objects would be missing, and he would have to include some other "comets" to catch up Lacaille. The Double Cluster, probably as 2 objects would surely be in, and maybe the Hyades as well?

Wow. That far south! You are officially in the tropics at 20°. I was expecting Southern Europe.

Thanks for doing the sums.

Paul

[acey]

It's interesting to compare Messier's list with William Herschel's - the latter having been compiled from Britain. Herschel's site (near Windsor) was about two and a half degrees north of Paris, and his most southerly discovery (NGC 3621) is about two degrees higher than M7. So Herschel got half a degree closer to his horizon limit than Messier (with a far fainter object, and a far larger telescope). Herschel's most southerly summer discovery (made on 13 July 1784) was the globular cluster NGC 6569 at -31.8 degrees. Precession will have altered the zenith angles of objects since then, but only by a small amount.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

M7 can be seen from here (53° 13' 14.45" N). I cannot see it from my garden but it is doable when I walk to a nearby football field