Dark Matter - Is it worth it?

[nmoushon]

Just read a news article that was about another failed attempt at find that sneaky substance - Dark Matter. It went on the say that they are just about out of possible places to look for it using the current most accepted models. Now technically it could be in the very last place they look before it is found but the odds aren't really in there favor. That got me think about how much money is being "wasted" on these failed attempts and what we could've spent all that money on. (i.e. cancer resarch or interstellar travel, ect. ect.) Wasted being relative as I guess its not really wasted as it has show us where not to look but at the same time it kind of is because...well...it wasn't there. Then I realised I wasn't quit sure as to what exactly the out come would be if we did discover it! There's all the sci-fi movies that have plenty of uses for it but not sure which, if any, are actually based in real science. I know we know very little about it, since we have actually found it, but my question is what are some of the potential uses or out comes of actually discovering it?

[ronin]

Now technically it could be in the very last place they look before it is found but the odds aren't really in there favor.

Immaterial of when they find it,it will be the last place they look.

Once found it is found and doesn't need to be looked for any more. Why would you carry on looking for something once found.

The English language is fun. Like asking "Where did you lose it?" If you knew that then you would go and get it so it isn't lost.

By your arguement they are wasting money on cancer research, they haven't found a cure yet so all the years of searching so far is "wasted", in the same way as they haven't found dark matter.

[George Jones]

my question is what are some of the potential uses or out comes of actually discovering it?

None.

Possibility of application is not the only reason for doing science; curiosity and the desire to know more about our universe is part of the human condition. We have to figure out how much society is willing to spend on purely curiosity-driven research, and different people will put quite different values on this.

[ScottS]

Immaterial of when they find it,it will be the last place they look.

Once found it is found and doesn't need to be looked for any more. Why would you carry on looking for something once found.

The English language is fun. Like asking "Where did you lose it?" If you knew that then you would go and get it so it isn't lost.

By your arguement they are wasting money on cancer research, they haven't found a cure yet so all the years of searching so far is "wasted", in the same way as they haven't found dark matter.

[nmoushon]

Immaterial of when they find it,it will be the last place they look.

Once found it is found and doesn't need to be looked for any more. Why would you carry on looking for something once found.

The English language is fun. Like asking "Where did you lose it?" If you knew that then you would go and get it so it isn't lost.

By your arguement they are wasting money on cancer research, they haven't found a cure yet so all the years of searching so far is "wasted", in the same way as they haven't found dark matter.

lol Sorry, I hated english class in school. But I get what you're saying.

Let me re-explain: According to this article there are only a couple other possible locations left for them to look. I'll just throw out a number and say there are 30 possible places. Whether they are choosing at random or have some reason behind their choices...I dont know. But what I was trying to get at was they could find it on their next choice or on their 30th choice or none at all and have to try and figure out a new location/method. 

I get your comparision to cancer research but at least theres a known end goal. With dark matter its still all hypothetical. It could do nothing more than fill in the empty space in the universe or it could alter everything we know about the universe. The unknown is what makes it tantalising to be known but also is a big risk. It could be a dud like ISON was.

Don't get me wrong. I love the unknown. Its what drew me to AP and astronomy to begin with. Its just that I see all this money going down the drain in grant in research that really doesn't promote human life in any way shape or form. (I'm thinking shrimp on a tredmill here not dark matter research.)  I just think we could make more and better scientific progress if we put more focus on research that has a known end goal. Like cold fusion or fision, I think, would we utterly life changing if we could figure those out.

[steppenwolf]

Dark matter is a kludge to make the numbers fit which is why they won't find it no matter where they look! :grin:


Sent from my iPhone from somewhere dark .....

[gkec]

Well if you could use it to absorb light pollution it might be worth it.

[Svenito]

As far as I understand it dark matter isn't in a place, so it's not where to look, but how to look. Given that they know it's there mathematically to make the motion of the universe work, it's clear it doesn't interact with anything. It doesn't interact with radio waves, light, or any other matter (so far) and thus it's not possible to be detected right know. So they need to work on how to detect/measure it. Neutrinos were undetectable for a long time because of how weakly they interact with matter, yet scientists believed them to exist and eventually built a device that could detect them.

What possible use will it have? Right now no one knows because they don't know what it is. What use are neutrinos, quarks and particles of that ilk, if not only to help us (as a race) to understand how stuff works and from that be able to create new things. Until they figure out what dark matter really is, we won't know if it's any use or if we can make any use out of the knowledge of dark matter.

I still have trouble grasping the concept of something not interacting with anything, as it's a pretty unusual concept when you're used to being able to touch a lot of things or feel the effects of them at least.

[Joe_L]

Dark matter is a kludge to make the numbers fit which is why they won't find it no matter where they look! :grin:

 I bet they said the same about Neptune 

Joe

[Macavity]

Only YOU can answer whether fundamental research is "worth it"? lol. Discoveries aside, I'd say so!

But that based on the idea that collaborative science transcends past carnage of world wars etc.

And, e.g. experimental Particle Physics, has done a good job in confirming theory of late? Not MANY  

*spectacular* results, but confirmation of the "Standard Model". Whither "Dark Matter" - Who knows? 

The "anomaly" is so big, there is (obviously) "something wrong", but by the same token un-worrying?

"Something's gotta give"? But I doubt it will be the real FABRIC of science... or its general worth.

[ollypenrice]

Use? What's useful?

We don't do science because it's useful, we do it because we're curious. Technology is is useful. You can use it to make printing presses and light bulbs and spectacles. And, when you've made them, they are very useful because you can use them to read about the search for dark matter!

Negative results are useful too, in science. Michelson and Morley set out to find the luminiferous ether. What a failure! it isn't there. Waste of time! Well, not exactly... 

Mind you, what did Eddington say about neutrinos? Something like, I don't believe in neutrinos. But I don't doubt the ability of our experimentors to create them. Heh heh, quite drole.

So if we really, really, really can't find dark matter then maybe we'll be revisiting GR? I'd put fifty quid on GR to win this one...

Olly

[rowan46]

Dark matter is a kludge to make the numbers fit which is why they won't find it no matter where they look! :grin:

Sent from my iPhone from somewhere dark .....

I wonder if they have  tried the back of the sofa or coat lining? That's usually where I find my lost stuff

[Macavity]

I wonder if they have  tried the back of the sofa or coat lining? That's usually where I find my lost stuff

Quite So! Primordial Black Holes... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_black_hole

... my favourite explanation for lone (unpaired) socks.

[Zakalwe]

The link below details a letter sent by Dr Ernst Stuhlinger in answer to a letter received from by Sister Mary Jacunda. She wanted him to justify why NASA were spending billions when there were so many starving children in the world (as an aside I idly wonder if she also wrote to the Pope asking why the Church spends billions on pomp and circumstance when there are so many starving children in the world...*)

I think that Dr Stuhlinger's response is one of the most eloquent and powerful response to the "Why are we wasting all this money on X, Y or Z" that I have ever seen.

* that's a rhetorical question and not an attempt to divert the thread into areas outside the CoC.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html

[Cath]

Some might say we've done quite well so far it would seem, it would be a shame to stop now don't you think? Especially as most of the universe appears to be made up of whatever it is we're trying to detect (dark matter/energy).

But yes, the money could always be spent where it's needed most, but then that's not how human society works is it?

[Qualia]

That got me think about how much money is being "wasted" on these failed attempts and what we could've spent all that money on.....my question is what are some of the potential uses or out comes of actually discovering it?

I think investigations and enquiries in to stuff like science and philosophy needs to be conducted, not for the sake of any definite solutions or answers to its questions but rather for the sake of those questions themselves. The questions aim primarily at knowledge, enlarge our conception of what is possible and enrich our intellectual imagination.

By way of passing - and hopefully not being overtly polemic - I feel the main source of world hunger, for example, is not due to food scarcity but policy. It's not a case of inevitability but politics.

[Joguj]

Understanding OUR Universe is, in my opinion, the single most important goal for all of us. To sit here and allow ourselves to become obsessed with our own insignificant importance without pushing our understanding of how we came to be here is just giving up.

Research in cancer and similar should, of course, continue but our ultimate fate depends on continued efforts in space exploration and trying to understand such things as dark matter/energy otherwise we will be stranded on this tiny blue green globe while our star completes its (and our) life cycle.

I lost my father last year to cancer, a work colleague two days ago and one of the SGL members sadly lost his wife very recently to the same illness. We all suffer these problems but to just concentrate our efforts solely on human disease and disregard the bigger picture is irresponsible to our future as a species.

Scientific research, like anything else, doesn't really 'cost' anything, it's just how we've set up our society unfortunately but thats a different matter entirely.

[Tiki]

In a healthy research programme failures are inevitable, for if all research was successful then some science would likely be missed. It would be naive to suppose that 'research moguls' would ever be able to attain a 100% success record with their approved research programmes. Science is just too hard to second guess. Faraday (and his new fangled electricity) had his critics.

Dark matter is postulated as a means of enabling the observed universe to be described in certain mathematical forms. If it were to be discovered then it would help to underpin our understanding of Nature. Of all the people in science, the theoretical physicists would have the biggest grins. The greater consequences of such discovery could well be huge.

[Zakalwe]

They'll learn just as much by finding out if it doesn't exist as well!

[Treeden]

... I think that Dr Stuhlinger's response is one of the most eloquent and powerful response to the "Why are we wasting all this money on X, Y or Z" that I have ever seen.

Very interesting read.  Thanks for sharing it here. 

From the letter:

"Let me only remind you of the recent near-tragedy of Apollo 13. When the time of the crucial reentry of the astronauts approached, the Soviet Union discontinued all Russian radio transmissions in the frequency bands used by the Apollo Project in order to avoid any possible interference, and Russian ships stationed themselves in the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans in case an emergency rescue would become necessary."

I didn't know that.  Not too surprising in this day and age, but in 1970, with the combined tensions of the Cold War and the so-called Space Race, it's nice to think that simple acts of humanity and compassion between East & West weren't as rare as we are sometimes led to believe. 

[Macavity]

I think that Dr Stuhlinger's response is one of the most eloquent and powerful response to the "Why are we wasting all this money on X, Y or Z" that I have ever seen.

Indeed very uplifting! Ah, memories... Simply reading something NOT followed

immediately by a "comments" section - Full of epithet and knee-jerk gainsaying?

Not to deny the "worth" of the internet re. immediacy and "democracy" - But to go

away with IDEAS to ponder, rather than a headache and raised blood pressure.

[AstroJon]

I think it is worth it, any discovery which furthers our understandig of physics could have potential uses at some point in the future.

For example, lets say we do find it one day. It will have properties which we can measure, theories will either be refined, discarded or new ones developed. This could then lead to further unexpected predictions and consequences which are impossible to predict.

Of course, I highly doubt any of this will occur in my lifetime but if we as a species hope one day to escape this planet further understanding the nature of the universe we live in and the laws of physics is essential.

[Tiki]

"Let me only remind you of the recent near-tragedy of Apollo 13. When the time of the crucial reentry of the astronauts approached, the Soviet Union discontinued all Russian radio transmissions in the frequency bands used by the Apollo Project in order to avoid any possible interference, and Russian ships stationed themselves in the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans in case an emergency rescue would become necessary."

I didn't know that.  Not too surprising in this day and age, but in 1970, with the combined tensions of the Cold War and the so-called Space Race, it's nice to think that simple acts of humanity and compassion between East & West weren't as rare as we are sometimes led to believe. 

They might yet be rare. The Soviet motivation to help could well have been less noble. The strong possibility of a global publicity coup and a very good look at state of the art US hardware might have rendered the Soviets 'helpful'.

[ollypenrice]

The link below details a letter sent by Dr Ernst Stuhlinger in answer to a letter received from by Sister Mary Jacunda. She wanted him to justify why NASA were spending billions when there were so many starving children in the world (as an aside I idly wonder if she also wrote to the Pope asking why the Church spends billions on pomp and circumstance when there are so many starving children in the world...*)

I think that Dr Stuhlinger's response is one of the most eloquent and powerful response to the "Why are we wasting all this money on X, Y or Z" that I have ever seen.

* that's a rhetorical question and not an attempt to divert the thread into areas outside the CoC.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html

I heartily agree with your first paragraph.

While I admired very much both Dr Stuhlinger's tone and many of his arguments I don't, in the end, entirely subscribe to them. I would not justify thoughtful inquiriy and investment in experimentation on the grounds of their ultimate usefulness to humanity. I would rather follow the line of argument (or non-argument!) taken by the writers of the American Constitution and begin with the words, 'We hold these truths to be self evident...' and I would continue, 'Attempting to understand our own circumstances and the universe in which we find ourselves is an inevitable consequence of our being alive and needs no further justification.'

Dr Stuhlinger's argument defends science but can it defend art, philosophy, literature, sport or many other activities which might be deemed unproductive? In my view these activities don't need justifying. They are self evidently a part of being alive.

Sister Mary Jacunda, I presume, already had many of her answers. Not all of us are in this position.

Olly

[Zakalwe]

I heartily agree with your first paragraph.

While I admired very much both Dr Stuhlinger's tone and many of his arguments I don't, in the end, entirely subscribe to them. I would not justify thoughtful inquiriy and investment in experimentation on the grounds of their ultimate usefulness to humanity. I would rather follow the line of argument (or non-argument!) taken by the writers of the American Constitution and begin with the words, 'We hold these truths to be self evident...' and I would continue, 'Attempting to understand our own circumstances and the universe in which we find ourselves is an inevitable consequence of our being alive and needs no further justification.'

Dr Stuhlinger's argument defends science but can it defend art, philosophy, literature, sport or many other activities which might be deemed unproductive? In my view these activities don't need justifying. They are self evidently a part of being alive.

Good analysis Olly

These questions are usually asked by those outside the field being questioned. You rarely hear a sports fan questioning the billions spent on their sport when there's so many starving children and dying kittens.

I guess that if Dr Stuhlinger simply responded with the fact that such exploration is self-evident then the letter would have been much shorter and not as thought-provoking. Or he could have quoted Michael Collins "To go places and do things that have never been done before – that’s what living is all about" or perhaps Dave Scott "As I stand out here in the wonders of the unknown at Hadley, I sort of realize there’s a fundamental truth to our nature, Man must explore". I also like Burt Rutan's point of view "I have a hunch the most important reason we’re going to space is not known now."

Finally, I assume the response only dealt with science as that is what was being questioned. Perhaps Sister Jucunda also wrote to the President of the US and other heads of state querying why so much is spent on "non-essentials". I doubt it though..