Right scope for a planaxy man!

[Naemeth]

WOW Nicks90 just followed your link...those pics are awesome!  Much better than I expected.  I certainly wouldn't be disappointed if I could see M31 and other's like that...maybe the 12" might become portable after all!!  

I don't think anyone would be . I agree with Nick though, the person who posted that probably had access to very dark skies and a large dob. You might be able to get close to those pictures in a dark enough sky with the 12" though, easier with a 16" though.

[starwonder]

A SW Dob I agree is a heavy thing and that's why I wouldn't get one, I'm not a big chap, about 5'10" so getting my grasp on a large scope might be a problem and storing it is another. I'd get an Orion Optics UK Dob they are much lighter and the optics are superb.  

Just checked the spec, got it wrong, the VX12L is 16kg and 1.5m long at f5.3 - I was suitable advised that an f number of f6 would be easier to collimate for a beginner, the smaller the number the harder it is, so I'm trying to keep within those guidelines to give me the best start in this wonderful hobby as possible.  I had an immediate fear of collimation which looked very complicated and many how-to guides looked very complex and nearly put me off the Dob altogether!  Since collimating an 8" f6 myself without a laser but just using a small hole in an aluminium like short tube thing with quite ease I realised that I can do this, which filled me with confidence enough to look at buying my own Dob.  

Thanks for the advise on the AZ4 - I'll have a look at them.  I had been looking at the ioptron mini-tower series mounts but as I don't need GOTO to find most things I may as well save the expense.

[Naemeth]

A SW Dob I agree is a heavy thing and that's why I wouldn't get one, I'm not a big chap, about 5'10" so getting my grasp on a large scope might be a problem and storing it is another. I'd get an Orion Optics UK Dob they are much lighter and the optics are superb.  

Just checked the spec, got it wrong, the VX12L is 16kg and 1.5m long at f5.3 - I was suitable advised that an f number of f6 would be easier to collimate for a beginner, the smaller the number the harder it is, so I'm trying to keep within those guidelines to give me the best start in this wonderful hobby as possible.  I had an immediate fear of collimation which looked very complicated and many how-to guides looked very complex and nearly put me off the Dob altogether!  Since collimating an 8" f6 myself without a laser but just using a small hole in an aluminium like short tube thing with quite ease I realised that I can do this, which filled me with confidence enough to look at buying my own Dob.  

Thanks for the advise on the AZ4 - I'll have a look at them.  I had been looking at the ioptron mini-tower series mounts but as I don't need GOTO to find most things I may as well save the expense.

I'd just check with FLO (First Light Optics) on whether the AZ4 will be suitable, it should be - the length might be more of an issue than anything else.

Collimation is really nothing to worry about - it took me quite a while at first, but quickly becomes second nature. The VX12 looks like a good buy .

[swamp thing]

For planets, atmosheric seeing in the UK isn't going to get any better than what you'll see through a 10" scope.

Our atmosphere isn't steady enough here.

For planets forget giant scopes, you just don't need them. Unless your gonna webcam with one

For Galaxies. You want aperture. Aperture makes small faint objects bigger and easier to see.

[starwonder]

Reviews on AZ4 on FLO look positive for all manner of different scopes, will need to check as you advise though if length of ED might be an issue.

"Atmosphere not steady enough" - what even at a dark site like in Dumphrieshire or some places in the Lake District?  Surely out of towns and away from civilisation there's a chance of clear enough skies aren't there?  No?

Won't be webcaming or imaging anything this is pure observing stuff only.

Then it will be about either a 10" or 12" Dob - I agree with you and see your point Naemeth about the 10", the VX10 is only 1.1m long and weighs 11kg at f4.8, if I can be bold enough to get it collimated I very might well plumb for this as I like the idea that it's more manouverable. No point getting something that I can't shift about with ease, I want to use the thing not it to become a coat stand!!  So I take your point totally, thanks.  I'm aiming to pay OO a visit shortly and then I will be able to see for myself what exactly I'm dealing with, what it's like to lift, etc.

If I can still see the beautiful planets like I have never seen them before, apart from with through my Kowa birding scope and 10x50 bino's, then I'm sure I'll be pretty happy.  

I think I have to face it I'm going to have to make a compromise here!

[swamp thing]

Atmospheric seeing is to do with air movement not darkness or transparency. Dark skies don't help with planets. We need steady air. The UK isn't blessed with it I'm afraid to say.

[nicks90]

starwonder....

"with a big dob and pristine skies, you may get close to the illustrations on there. personally i havent seen anything as clear as those, except when i looked through the 20" dob at kielder observatory."

Do not under estimate what i put there! A 20" dob with research grade optics at kielder observatory is VASTLY more improved than a 12" dob at most moderately 'dark sites', or your back garden!

and yes, seeing is about humidity, atmospheric turbulence (wind/thermals) and dirt. You would be surprised at how much soot, dust and water is in the 30km of atmosphere above you. I have not taken my dob over x200 mag yet on anything - as the image at the eyepeice just falls to pieces because of our atmosphere. I tried x300 on the moon on Sunday night - as it was quite exceptional seeing. But even then the moon was quivering like a bowl of jelly. 

I think what I'm trying to say is, you wont really get any additional useful magnification between a 120 ed frac and a big dob, certainly not enough to make the image as big as in those pictures - but th bigger aperture will give you a brighter image and maybe more detail. But just dont expect miracles unless you move to the top of the Andes in Peru!

[starwonder]

I see, thank you all.

I may as well just get something to "do the job" and make do with whatever I get in the plain of view then.

And that will be my favourite at the moment which is nearing toward the 10" dob.

[AndyWB]

Then it will be about either a 10" or 12" Dob ...  I'm aiming to pay OO a visit shortly and then I will be able to see for myself what exactly I'm dealing with, what it's like to lift, etc.

Do let us know what you think; I'm planning an upgrade in the future, and I haven't been able to rule out either the ideas of 12", or indeed the Orion Optics VXs. Hellish expensive compared to Chinese made - but I like the sound of the quality control on the optics... I guess it means more time to save up...

[Moonshane]

A SW Dob I agree is a heavy thing and that's why I wouldn't get one, I'm not a big chap, about 5'10" so getting my grasp on a large scope might be a problem and storing it is another. I'd get an Orion Optics UK Dob they are much lighter and the optics are superb.  

Just checked the spec, got it wrong, the VX12L is 16kg and 1.5m long at f5.3 - I was suitable advised that an f number of f6 would be easier to collimate for a beginner, the smaller the number the harder it is, so I'm trying to keep within those guidelines to give me the best start in this wonderful hobby as possible.  I had an immediate fear of collimation which looked very complicated and many how-to guides looked very complex and nearly put me off the Dob altogether!  Since collimating an 8" f6 myself without a laser but just using a small hole in an aluminium like short tube thing with quite ease I realised that I can do this, which filled me with confidence enough to look at buying my own Dob.  

Thanks for the advise on the AZ4 - I'll have a look at them.  I had been looking at the ioptron mini-tower series mounts but as I don't need GOTO to find most things I may as well save the expense.

it's no harder to collimate an f4 scope than an f8 scope. the process is just the same for both. I'd recommend a cheshire not a laser. you don't need big aperture for planets and moon but as you rightly say, a OOUK scope is smaller and lighter than a SW option (albeit more expensive new).

if you are near Stockport you could see my scopes (I have a 16" f4, a 12" f4 and a 6" f11 - all OOUK albeit two on home made bases).

[starwonder]

Wow, brill, thanks Moonshame that's a very kind offer which I'd like to take you up on, when's convenient for you, tomorrow maybe?

[Moonshane]

I'll send a pm

[Peter Drew]

You can always use an off axis mask to stop down a large Newtonian for sharper planetary views when conditions are poor.

[starwonder]

Oh, that's an interesting idea, so you're saying that sometimes the brightness of a planet is too much when using a large aperture so by effectively reducing the aperture with a mask it reduces the brightness but doesn't spoil the view of the image?  Do people with larger Dob's do that quite often when they don't have a frac for instance?

I don't think my wife would justify the cost for both the 120 ED and the 10" OO Dob, she's already up'd the original budget from last years £700 to £1500, I can't complain!  So if I were to get one or the other, would it be the Dob or the ED as my first scope, that is my question which I will hopefully get an answer to very shortly.

[Naemeth]

Oh, that's an interesting idea, so you're saying that sometimes the brightness of a planet is too much when using a large aperture so by effectively reducing the aperture with a mask it reduces the brightness but doesn't spoil the view of the image?  Do people with larger Dob's do that quite often when they don't have a frac for instance?

I don't think my wife would justify the cost for both the 120 ED and the 10" OO Dob, she's already up'd the original budget from last years £700 to £1500, I can't complain!  So if I were to get one or the other, would it be the Dob or the ED as my first scope, that is my question which I will hopefully get an answer to very shortly.

Essentially, a larger aperture gathers more light but is effected more and more by atmospheric turbulence, the aperture is 'stopped down' in order for the effects of bad seeing to be lessened.

Go for the dob first .

[swamp thing]

Yep! Get the Dob first.

My advice......don't look through Shanes 16" that could prove very costly

[Naemeth]

Yep! Get the Dob first.

My advice......don't look through Shanes 16" that could prove very costly

I concur, don't look through any TV eyepieces either, same reason (although, even more costly).

[Moonshane]

you'll see an aperture mask in action later (probably).

[starwonder]

 Don't worry folks there's little chance I'll be getting a 16" I haven't got the room to store one that big let alone move it!!  

[nicks90]

     one thing i will say is my 12" flextube dob takes up less space than my 130mm newt on its eq mount and tripod. I bet a 16" dob base doesnt take any more physical floor space than an eq3 tripod occupies.     

but thats only relevant if you are lazy and can never be bothered to dismantle the newt and tripod etc and stack it all away neatly. I fall in to <---- category

[starwonder]

The 16" is ENORMOUS!  I'm not getting one of those.

The 12" is heavy, for me anyway!  It's unlikely I will get one of those either as although size wise it is manageable I don't think I'll find it easy to shift about the garden too much, unfortunately.  It was my ideal OTA.

So the 10" or even the 8" is a possibility as viewed a double double through a 6" OO this evening which was amazing and split them too!!  Fab, never seen that before.  Also saw ring nebula despite cloud!  I might just like this DSO thing more than I thought I would after all, so I'm likely to agree the purchase will be a Dob but it may be a 2nd hand one now, then if it doesn't work out I shouldn't make too much of a loss.

[Moonshane]

LOL. see what you say in 12 months when aperture fever strikes!

you'll definitely be wise to buy a good used one if you can. if you hold out for an OOUK (I'd recommend that given they are all I'd ever buy) you'll eventually get the scope you are happy with.

if you remain entranced then save for new or pounce on the scope of your dreams used - they do come up from time to time. I have the 10" f6.3's for £400.

[swamp thing]

The 16" is ENORMOUS!  I'm not getting one of those.

yep! A 16" is a big lump eh?

The strange thing is....... Boy they shrink fast. The first time you see one, its like then, they start shrinking........rapidly.

[Naemeth]

yep! A 16" is a big lump eh?

The strange thing is....... Boy they shrink fast. The first time you see one, its like then, they start shrinking........rapidly.

Same principle with my 10". It looked huge in the box, now it doesn't. The 6" is actually taller because of the pillar mount .

[starwonder]

After sleeping on all this I have realised now that my expectations of what I thought I wanted in my first scope are probably not as important as just getting out there with star chart in hand and scope, regardless of what it is to a certain extent!  

With this in mind I am seriously considering a 2nd hand scope but didn't really was a SW because it is so bulky and heavy, however I think I may have to make a compromise and plumb for maybe an 8" SW Dob.  Are there any other Dob's that are within this cheaper category anyone can recommend?

The only alternative I can think of to get me out there looking at where stuff is in the sky is to maybe consider a good frac on an iOptron mini-tower, then the GOTO might help me find where things are located, saving me a lot of time in these early days.  But can I expect to see not only planets but split double doubles?  Could I see galaxies, even if faint?  Could I see nebula's?  With a 4.8 or thereabouts frac?

Comments please?