Debayering a DSLR's Bayer matrix.

[alistairsam]

Thank you very much. In this picture you can see I scratched the sensor badly. I was struggling to remove the bayer array so I couldn't apply less pressure really. Now, you obviously succeeded with the same sensor. I was using a wooden paint brush, though. Any suggestions, ideas? I'm at a loss here. I would love to convert a camera to mono.

hi try a plastic brush

that's a bit harder but shouldn't sscratch also keep repeatedly scraping under the microscope

[Luis Campos]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum

I just sucessfully removed cfa from 450D sensor

I used proven method, sharpened wooden paintbrush handle. It was hard to start scraping, but I started with needle and from then it was relatively easy.

I removed glass window from sensor with ease and in one piece. I used hot air rework station with 5mm nozzle, with temperature set at 250C. Just circle

around the edge of glass and when hot enough bonding glue will turn white. From then you just need to pick up glass with the tweezers. It's so easy.

I still need to clean up the edges and some dust.

Full size image on the next link. This is with original IR/AA filters in place, so it cean be even sharper when I remove them. Only histogram adjust, no sharpening.

https://dl.dropboxus...7/slike/1_1.jpg

Filip

Cheers Filip

Nice work there!!!

Very glad to know this is working well, success with the 350D and now with 450D sensor too, very, very good news

Just one good cleanup to remove the CFA leftovers and you're up and runnig, can't wait to see the first deep sky tests, the 450D sensor will show amazing resolution and noise free performance, that's for sure!

Who would have ever thought that a simple wooden tool will work for this so well??? Alistair we owe you a beer, or better....a truck full

Cheers,

[Gina]

The camera starts up fine but when I try to take a pic, I get an "err 70"

This can be due to a bad connection between imaging unit and the main board - I often got this.

gina, do you have a thread on the cooling for your 1100d.

If i can achieve similar cooling I'll try a 1100d

Yes, this is the latest, I think there are others that became extremely long.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/163185-dslr-cooling-cold-finger-with-air-cooled-tec-working-version/

[alistairsam]

This can be due to a bad connection between imaging unit and the main board - I often got this.

Yes, this is the latest, I think there are others that became extremely long.

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/163185-dslr-cooling-cold-finger-with-air-cooled-tec-working-version/

hi Gina

is this the ribbon cable between the back of the sensor board and the main board? what did you do to fix this?

with the cooling, did you need such a large fan and radiative element? how did you handle condensation in front?

I'll reseat my 600d cables again.

I've sourced a water damaged 600d and an ebay seller in China who can supply spare sensors at a reasonable cost. I'm not giving up on this.

cheers

Alistair

[Gina]

hi Gina

is this the ribbon cable between the back of the sensor board and the main board?

Yes

what did you do to fix this?

Can't remember now other than reseat the connectors. I think there was something else too and I thought I'd posted about it but I can't find it now. I suggest Googling Err 70 - I think that's what I did. I seem to remember having to do a full reaet on the camera to clear the error. It was quite a long time ago now and my memory isn't what it was - not that it was ever all that good

with the cooling, did you need such a large fan and radiative element? how did you handle condensation in front?

There's quite a lot of heat to get rid of. Condensation was tackled by filling all the spare air space with freshly dried silica gel bags and carefully sealing the case to avoid damp air getting in.

I'll reseat my 600d cables again.

Good idea

I've sourced a water damaged 600d and an ebay seller in China who can supply spare sensors at a reasonable cost. I'm not giving up on this.

cheers

Alistair

Good

[alistairsam]

I tried reseating all the cables about 5 times and still get the same err70. so looks like the sensor is bricked.

also tried clearing the settings and powering up in "CA" mode.

is it worth buying a water damaged camera? this one says its been dropped in sea water but he doesn't know if the sensor is fine.

i know the front of the sensor, being sealed won't be affected but I'm not sure what corrosion would do to the back of the sensor with the circuitry.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/161073914694?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

other option is to buy just a sensor which is tested working.

Gina, with the cooling, you mentioned there is a lot of heat to be removed, but how do the QHY8 and 8L get away with just normal sized fans?

with the cold finger, won't a copper foil work as well?

the gap behind the 600d sensor is about 1mm and I don't think its possible to get a cold finger there.

what if a radiative element was made by coiling small tubes and pump cooled liquid through it. that would avoid the need for a bulky cold finger element to come out the body and would just need two thin pipes for the inlet and outlet like water cooled cpu coolers

Cheers

[flolic]

Thank you very much. In this picture you can see I scratched the sensor badly. I was struggling to remove the bayer array so I couldn't apply less pressure really. Now, you obviously succeeded with the same sensor. I was using a wooden paint brush, though. Any suggestions, ideas? I'm at a loss here. I would love to convert a camera to mono.

Are you sure that's a scratch? What looks like a scratches on my sensor, gone away after I pushed quite hard and repeatedly over them with my wooden tool.

[flolic]

Can you post a pic of your rework station

That's just a cheap Chineese Aoyue 852A++ hot air rework station.

[flolic]

is it worth buying a water damaged camera? this one says its been dropped in sea water but he doesn't know if the sensor is fine.

i know the front of the sensor, being sealed won't be affected but I'm not sure what corrosion would do to the back of the sensor with the circuitry.

http://www.ebay.com....984.m1423.l2649

Sensor per se can still be ok, but rest of the electronics are most likely total Rubbish if that camera was submerged.

Sea water is evil for electronics, and in my life I've seen too many sea water damaged stuff that was beyond any repair only a day after it gets wet...

[pixueto]

Are you sure that's a scratch? What looks like a scratches on my sensor, gone away after I pushed quite hard and repeatedly over them with my wooden tool.

You might be right. It may be Bayer array or microlenses left over but my wooden tool isn't good enough to remove them. I've ordered some new paintbrushes to see if it goes better.

Thanks

[alistairsam]

Thank you very much. In this picture you can see I scratched the sensor badly. I was struggling to remove the bayer array so I couldn't apply less pressure really. Now, you obviously succeeded with the same sensor. I was using a wooden paint brush, though. Any suggestions, ideas? I'm at a loss here. I would love to convert a camera to mono.

i wouldnt worry about the scratch too much. I've got similar ones on my 350d and they dont show up unlike the bits of cfa you still have left there.

just keep scraping on top of it under a microscope till you see it dissapearing.

its more like wearing it out rather than scraping. thats the bits left over.

you could also try a plastic tool on the blue area under a microscope. but since its harder than wood. it could scratch.

stayed with wood.

cheers

Alistair

[alistairsam]

Sensor per se can still be ok, but rest of the electronics are most likely total Rubbish if that camera was submerged.

Sea water is evil for electronics, and in my life I've seen too many sea water damaged stuff that was beyond any repair only a day after it gets wet...

ok thanks. so new sensor it is.

btw if anyone wants spare sensors, I'll post a link to that ebay seller, they have most models and prices are reasonable.

cheers

[pixueto]

I haven't found anyone who has successfully removed the cover glass from the 1100D sensor and AFAIK the few firms offering mono converted cameras do not include the 1100D in their range.

Yes, although I've given up, I'm still reading this thread with interest I still have my super-cooled 1100D lying around and if I ever find someone has found a way of removing the cover glass without killing the sensor I might just have another go just for the sake of trying it. An OSC camera is of little use to me as my main interest is NB DSO imaging. For most galaxies a smaller sensor is perfectly adequate.

Gina, I was thinking... even if the glass is attached to the sensor (which is odd because it would affect the microlenses's performance?) by removing it you would damage the microlenses and perhaps some bits of the bayer array but, surely, the photodiodes should remain intact, right?

[russellhq]

ok thanks. so new sensor it is.

btw if anyone wants spare sensors, I'll post a link to that ebay seller, they have most models and prices are reasonable.

cheers

A link would be great

[pixueto]

i wouldnt worry about the scratch too much. I've got similar ones on my 350d and they dont show up unlike the bits of cfa you still have left there.

just keep scraping on top of it under a microscope till you see it dissapearing.

its more like wearing it out rather than scraping. thats the bits left over.

you could also try a plastic tool on the blue area under a microscope. but since its harder than wood. it could scratch.

stayed with wood.

cheers

Alistair

Thanks Alistair.

The way I see it is that if you have a good enough tool or you are very skilful you might manage to remove the bayer array without leaving any scratches on the sensor. However, once you go back (through the microscope or not) to remove those tiny left overs, scratching the sensor in some degree is unavoidable.

Now, it would be brilliant to see whether or not those little scratches show up in flat frames at, say F8. Alistair, Luis, you have converted your sensors to mono. Do you remember leaving any scratches on them? Alistair, you said you did. Can you show us a F8 flat frame to see if they come up? I already saw Luis' flat frame and it's fine but he didn't mention if there was scratches on the sensor.

If those scratches don't show up in those flat frames, the procedure should be good enough, right? Will they have any influence on the amount of light collected/picture quality? If not, I would like to understand why. Maybe some of the bright minds in the forum can shed some light on this.

Thanks

Edited July 30, 2013 by pixueto

[pixueto]

Well, narrowband DSLR imaging is worth a try so I took the plunge and bought a second hand 1000D to try converting it to mono. I've chosen this model because it's cheap, it has live view and there are sensors available on ebay at a reasonable price. If I rend the sensor useless I can always replace it by another second hand one.

My plan is to start removing the CFA only in some areas and reassemble the camera to test it with flats at different stops. I won't risk damaging the gold connectors with a complete removal until I see if this works. The idea is to pay particular attention to those areas that have been slightly scratched to see when those defects show up: F5/F8/F11? If they don't show, say at F8, that would be good enough as I intend to use the camera with a newtonian SW200P (F5) and a ED80 (Sky Watcher) at f/7.5

If the scratches don't come up at F8, I'll remove all the CFA in the camera spending lots of time removing the tiny leftovers using a microscope (easier said than done).

Is this okay? Is this a sensible plan or am I missing something?

Thank you for your help.

[alistairsam]

Well, narrowband DSLR imaging is worth a try so I took the plunge and bought a second hand 1000D to try converting it to mono. I've chosen this model because it's cheap, it has live view and there are sensors available on ebay at a reasonable price. If I rend the sensor useless I can always replace it by another second hand one.

My plan is to start removing the CFA only in some areas and reassemble the camera to test it with flats at different stops. I won't risk damaging the gold connectors with a complete removal until I see if this works. The idea is to pay particular attention to those areas that have been slightly scratched to see when those defects show up: F5/F8/F11? If they don't show, say at F8, that would be good enough as I intend to use the camera with a newtonian SW200P (F5) and a ED80 (Sky Watcher) at f/7.5

If the scratches don't come up at F8, I'll remove all the CFA in the camera spending lots of time removing the tiny leftovers using a microscope (easier said than done).

Is this okay? Is this a sensible plan or am I missing something?

Thank you for your help.

Hi

yep, sounds like a good plan but I wouldn't worry too much about scraping it in stages.

if you're using a microscope and are careful, you should be able to get the cfa off without too many scratches.

and the 1000d is perfect cause the sensor is only $60, so even before you buy the camera, i'd suggest buy just the sensor, have a go and if it looks good under a microscope swap it on a working 1000d.

i bought a 1000d but the seller did not post, so i'm still looking. i have a spare sensor, cold finger as well.

Last night was my first test for the 350D -> YAY . Pixueto, the 350d does have scratches, but as you can see it doesn't show up at all. only the dark cfa bits show up.

finally one clear night after a month, and what do I do? I lose the only battery for the 350D. after cursing and swearing for about 2 hours, I finally found it and started testing.

biggest pain was no usb control as I didn't build the serial cable yet. so I used a timer remote.

testing went well, I couldn't get my guiding working but because I have a pier in the backyard already aligned, I was able to get 3 min unguided subs with my 10inch F4.

attached are two low res jpegs to show what it looks like, but i'll post a link shortly to dropbox with the Fits, CR2 files so you'll can have a play if you like.

data is not perfect, ignore the wonky stars, it wasn't clear as there were high clouds and my darn secondary kept fogging up and this was taken from an urban backyard, not dark skies. far less than good conditions.

so with all that given, I'm pretty happy with the outcome. the detail in the 60second iso 800 sub is pretty good, I reckon.

I started doing Ha tests, but the battery died.

so if it stays clear, I'll have longer subs to try once I get the guiding going.

the results for me are more than rewarding. they show a lot of potential especially if you manage to get it cooled. but even if you don't, once you remove the IR filter and convert it to a mono, you can be sure to get good details with a 5 min sub. no need to go for 20 min subs. just stack several 5's. you should have plenty of signal there.

this has inspired me to keep pursuing with my 600D. the 18MP resolution and 3rd/4th Gen imaging processor should give good results.

Here's the dropbox link to a folder with cr2, fits and jpg files. they're still uploading but should be done shortly.

https://www.dropbox....72f6/DCKL0AR99R

comments welcome.

Cheers

Alistair

[alistairsam]

those files are all straight from the camera with no processing or stacking

[Gina]

That's pretty impressive

[Luis Campos]

Well, narrowband DSLR imaging is worth a try so I took the plunge and bought a second hand 1000D to try converting it to mono. I've chosen this model because it's cheap, it has live view and there are sensors available on ebay at a reasonable price. If I rend the sensor useless I can always replace it by another second hand one.

My plan is to start removing the CFA only in some areas and reassemble the camera to test it with flats at different stops. I won't risk damaging the gold connectors with a complete removal until I see if this works. The idea is to pay particular attention to those areas that have been slightly scratched to see when those defects show up: F5/F8/F11? If they don't show, say at F8, that would be good enough as I intend to use the camera with a newtonian SW200P (F5) and a ED80 (Sky Watcher) at f/7.5

If the scratches don't come up at F8, I'll remove all the CFA in the camera spending lots of time removing the tiny leftovers using a microscope (easier said than done).

Is this okay? Is this a sensible plan or am I missing something?

Thank you for your help.

Hi,

Well, in my case I can't say for sure if the sensor is scratched as I didn't use a microscope to remove the CFA it was done with naked eye and inspecting with an inverted 25mm eyepiece acting as a magnifier, I couldn't see any scratches at this scale but probablly there are some very small and not too deep, the flast dont show any problems even with my f 7/5 ED80 nor with the 200mm f/4 newt.

I think you should give a try on removing the bits under the microscope and test the sensor with a flat, that will tell what is happening

Cheers,

[Luis Campos]

Hi

yep, sounds like a good plan but I wouldn't worry too much about scraping it in stages.

if you're using a microscope and are careful, you should be able to get the cfa off without too many scratches.

and the 1000d is perfect cause the sensor is only $60, so even before you buy the camera, i'd suggest buy just the sensor, have a go and if it looks good under a microscope swap it on a working 1000d.

i bought a 1000d but the seller did not post, so i'm still looking. i have a spare sensor, cold finger as well.

Last night was my first test for the 350D -> YAY . Pixueto, the 350d does have scratches, but as you can see it doesn't show up at all. only the dark cfa bits show up.

finally one clear night after a month, and what do I do? I lose the only battery for the 350D. after cursing and swearing for about 2 hours, I finally found it and started testing.

biggest pain was no usb control as I didn't build the serial cable yet. so I used a timer remote.

testing went well, I couldn't get my guiding working but because I have a pier in the backyard already aligned, I was able to get 3 min unguided subs with my 10inch F4.

attached are two low res jpegs to show what it looks like, but i'll post a link shortly to dropbox with the Fits, CR2 files so you'll can have a play if you like.

data is not perfect, ignore the wonky stars, it wasn't clear as there were high clouds and my darn secondary kept fogging up and this was taken from an urban backyard, not dark skies. far less than good conditions.

so with all that given, I'm pretty happy with the outcome. the detail in the 60second iso 800 sub is pretty good, I reckon.

I started doing Ha tests, but the battery died.

so if it stays clear, I'll have longer subs to try once I get the guiding going.

the results for me are more than rewarding. they show a lot of potential especially if you manage to get it cooled. but even if you don't, once you remove the IR filter and convert it to a mono, you can be sure to get good details with a 5 min sub. no need to go for 20 min subs. just stack several 5's. you should have plenty of signal there.

this has inspired me to keep pursuing with my 600D. the 18MP resolution and 3rd/4th Gen imaging processor should give good results.

Here's the dropbox link to a folder with cr2, fits and jpg files. they're still uploading but should be done shortly.

https://www.dropbox....72f6/DCKL0AR99R

comments welcome.

Cheers

Alistair

Congrats Alistair!

Finally a clear night

Ha ha ha, I know what you mean loosing your batteries happened the same to me some time ago

Those images show A LOT and they are straight from the camera, iamgine a good hour or two worth of subs all cleaned up and callibrated, I am blown away with mine, you will be too that's for sure

Please do keep us updated!

Cheers,

Luís

[Luis Campos]

Last night I made some imaging, I put this in the imaging forum, here goes some more good results in Ha:

Cheers guys,

Luís

[alistairsam]

Last night I made some imaging, I put this in the imaging forum, here goes some more good results in Ha:

Cheers guys,

Luís

Luis

those look really cool. hard to believe they're from a dslr with such short integration time.

how did you fit the 1.25" filter and the coma corrector?

I use a ts-9 oag but need to buy a canon adaptor for the oag so I can save 10mm and keep the 55mm to the baader mpcc mark3

would be good to fit a 1.25 " filter wheel with NB filters

cheers

Alistair

[pixueto]

those files are all straight from the camera with no processing or stacking

Did you use a H-alpha filter for those images?

[Luis Campos]

Luis

those look really cool. hard to believe they're from a dslr with such short integration time.

how did you fit the 1.25" filter and the coma corrector?

I use a ts-9 oag but need to buy a canon adaptor for the oag so I can save 10mm and keep the 55mm to the baader mpcc mark3

would be good to fit a 1.25 " filter wheel with NB filters

cheers

Alistair

Cheers Alistair,

You bet, when the first sub showed up I think I awake the neighborhood...WOOOOOOW

I used a very high tech method to insert the 1.25" filter inside the T2 adaptor....naaaaa, it's just a hard cardboard circle cutted to fit the inside of the T2 adaptor and I made a center hole to fit the filter thread...works great I'll upload a pic. of it latter for you to see.