Non- Chinese Equipment.

[BiG JiLM]

Ive got so many Q's with my new hobby, its great.. here's another then.

Being new to Scopes'N'Stuff Ive come over from another IMO 'comparative' hobby to astronomy -ie enginneering + fine subject matter- that being 25 years of ManFi . Manfi is a new word Ive just coined for -proper hifi- like UK made engineering/ names such as Quad, Linn, Naim, Roksan/ all the myriad of fantastic speaker Co's here etc etc etc (and wholly boringly so, populated by 99% chaps, & hairy ones at that) see the scope I have of course it being a newbie scope and too it seems all the scopes Ive been mulling and wowing over (even it seems up to quite considerable sums, say £800+) are all chinese made? Now Im not dissing chinese manufacturing, no (I bet I could hardly have got a scope like mine 20 years ago for £140) but as I like the way fiddly bits are made, and their quality and used to our VG UK hifi bits n bobs, Im wondering what the bottom cost is for a scope made in for eg the UK, Germany, or France might be? is this equipment just the realm of pro's? or something from a madman's dream? ie are they in a different ball-park entirely pricewise? As nice a hobby this seems to be I seem to be resigned to having a chinese made scope for, well, for ever really. Id have thought the cost of shiping a large tube with, well almost nothing inside, would be high enough to mean smaller UK Scope Co's could compete. In fact Id have thought it ideal for UK Co's, but unless Im mistaken I see nothing but 100%of them made in china.

Maybe I should start my own home-made 32" reflex-type-monster-scope-like-that-amazing-bloke-off-youtube. Seriously, look him up- its one amazing build!

JiLm

[cs1cjc]

See Orion Optics for UK manufactured scopes:

http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

See Orion Optics for UK manufactured scopes:

http://www.orionoptics.co.uk/

And some cracking good ones they make!

[Carbon Brush]

I have some Russian kit. TAL, Intes and Intes Micro.

Optically excellent and if you look at the Russian stuff, it should please you mechanically!

The basic problem is UK manufacturing costs.

We all want holidays, sick pay, etc.

We all expect to get more than 2 bags of rice a week as a wage.

On the employers side.

You have to provide safety wear and you can't throw all your waste over the fence or in the river.

UK manufacturing for the mass market is basically gone. A few specialist small volume markets remain, but that is all.

There is some 'UK' astro kit around. But in reality it is sometimes Chinese modules or components, labelled up and put into boxes in the UK.

Some years ago my Orion Optics (made in the UK) reflector was actually a Chinese tube and focusser, with a mirror finished by Orion and sitting on top of a Chinese EQ mount. The supplied accessories were Chinese again.

I'm sorry to say my Chinese Skywatcher SW200P is as good optically as my old Europa, and mechanically far better.

It isn't just 'UK' manufacturers who (in my view) mislead. Have you looked closely at Meade kit? I have had Chinese parts, assembled in Mexico then labelled 'good ol US of A'.

However, there is a glimmer of hope. I hear the Chinese people are starting to want holidays, luxury goods, etc.

Factory gate costs are therefore rising.

[John]

I have scopes by Vixen (Japan), Orion Optics (UK), Skywatcher (China) and Meade (China). The Vixen is better engineered and has, for it's aperture, the best optics. The others are more or less the same optically and mechanically - good for their cost although the Orion Optics would cost a lot more than the Chinese equivalent if I'd bought it new.

I used to try and go for Japanese made eyepieces if I could but some of the best out there are now being made in Taiwan and China and I can't see any reason not to go for those now. If the manufacture is good enough for Al Nagler, it's good enough for me !

[E621Keith]

The sub £1k OTA market is pretty much Chinese territory with TAL (Russia), Orion Optics (UK) and Meade (Mexican) being the only non Chinese manufacturer. Base on the feedback on this forum, Chinese made stuff are usually more reliable than their Mexican counterpart.

Newtonian - Orion Optics VX6 (£500), TAL 150p (£360), Intes-Micro (5"/127mm mn56 cost around £900) (in comparison SW150p - £185)

Achromatic Refractor - TAL100

Germans don't make telescope any more, neither do France

Japanese - start at around £1k with Vixen ED81S

Italian - Officina Stellar - Hiper 80 (apo) (£2k) (Italian tube, Chinese optics)

American - Televue TV76 around £1.6k

(For comparison ED80 - £459)

btw, none of these are consider pro. Actually a lot of pro uses amateur equipment. The teaching telescope at my university are three LX200s, ESO astronomer and engineers have been shown to use C14 to carry out survey for potential site for big telescopes. Professional research grade scope starts at around £10k for a 0.4m class.

[Astro_Baby]

Dont forget eps as well. Televue..American but made in China, Pentax....made in Japan, Circle T orthos...made in Japan.

No ones mentioned Takahashi...made in Japan but the price is a bit steep

[Astro_Baby]

Peak to Valley as well for scopes.....the wre some non chinese scopes out there but the price is always a bit stiff with a few exceptions.

[Moonshane]

for me the main requirement for a scope is good optics. the chinese scopes have this and also good general build quality but I prefer to buy used and therefore the british made scopes are within my reach. I only buy Orion Optics UK newtonian scopes generally and second hand. the build quality on the older ones could be better but they have improved recently in general build quality (their optics have always been very very good).

one other option (at a higher price still) is the guys at Sumerian Optics. given your comments you might like their scopes http://www.sumerianoptics.com/en/

[John]

For a UK maker, David Lukehurst of Nottingham has a great reputation. He uses UK made mirrors as well:

http://www.dobsonians.co.uk/

Again, not low cost but, as with Orion Optics, you can have a bespoke scope if you want

[glowjet]

Then of course there is your GEM mount, the Chinese made series are the most used in the UK with the EQ6 at the top of the tree and they seem to meet with most peoples demands, apart from the bendy steel bolts and perishing rubber, which bits can, of course, be replaced by good UK alternatives. For real quality engineering you could start with such as Losmandy of the USA made in Hollywood and proceed from there, but you are going to need several arms and legs to pay for it

John.

[Capricorn]

Astronomy is not really an area for small UK companies, who are they going to sell to?

You buy a 8 inch scope, great they have sold a scope.

When do you buy your next scope?

5 years later. 10 years later, never - just stick with the 8 inch scope?

There are very few astronomers in the UK, less then 1 in a thousand I would guess.

Letchworth club is close to me, they advertise as a membership of over 100, say 100 for ease. Letchworth has a population of about 35,000, so that is one in 350. However the club serves Hitchin and Stevenage also. Probably same population in Hitchin and say double in Stevenage. So Letchworth club has a catchment of around 130,000 - 150,000 and about 100 members. Not even 1 in a thousand then.

You mention hifi equipment, more (many more) homes have a decent hifi then have a scope.

Ever guessed how many of the components in these high end hifi's are chinese? Most of every knob, capacitor, resistors, amp chip, display etc will be. They may have their cases pressed in China and shipped here. And yes I have worked for companies making electronic equipment and even when the claim to beUK/British (biggest producer in Europe was one of them) the vast majority was non UK/British/European at the end of it all, and very much Chinese.

Actually if you look at it I have no idea how so many astronomy retailers survive in the UK.

Build your own scope, but you could end up with a chinese mirror, on a chinese mirror mount, with a chinese focuser and chinese eyepieces. Yes there are UK items out there, not many. Buy a british motor bike, not a Japanese one, then look at the bike and add up all the Japanese components.

If you think £800 is a considerable sum for a scope look at the TMB (the 92 is their small scope), Offinicia Stellare and Astro-Physics lines and that is just 3. £800 would get you nothing. Nice little Tak 85mm is just £3,500. A "considerable" sum in this hobby is not £800. Stick another 0 on the end then you are getting into "considerable".

[cs1cjc]

...There is some 'UK' astro kit around. But in reality it is sometimes Chinese modules or components, labelled up and put into boxes in the UK.

Some years ago my Orion Optics (made in the UK) reflector was actually a Chinese tube and focusser, with a mirror finished by Orion and sitting on top of a Chinese EQ mount. The supplied accessories were Chinese again.

Orion make their own focusers, tubes and mirrors (mainly from aluminum and glass sourced elswhere). Mounts (apart from the dobsonian mount), finders, eyepieces, etc. are made elsewhere. There is a nice video of the manufacture of their ODK here, though I understand that the product has been improved since the video was shot and they are now in a new factory:

[Earl]

A friend of mine works in a specialist hi fi shop and he sell rigs that cost more than a house I was speechless at a £50,000 cd player

[glowjet]

A friend of mine works in a specialist hi fi shop and he sell rigs that cost more than a house I was speechless at a £50,000 cd player

I wonder if he had £18,000 speakers to go with it, like the ones sold to-day by the company my Son works for

John.

[E621Keith]

In modern manufacturing, a made in somewhere stamps doesn't carry as much meaning as it once did. When you buy something that is made in Japan or made in Germany, half of the components could have came from China. The same also go for Chinese products, when you buy a Chinese made camera, the CMOS would come from Japan, the processing chip from Korea, and the PCB from Thailand. In the end may be the only part that was made in China was the shell and the manual assembly.

[Moonshane]

One of my favourite Dell Boy quotes is "Oi, oi, oi. That's enough of that. This is none of yer Taiwan junk. This was made in Formosa!". I have a number of excellent eyepieces that are made in what was once Formosa.

[angusb1]

+1 for David Lukehurst. I'd love one of his scopes. Top quality in astro kit these days outside the UK is Russian/Japanese/US. As has already been said, some of the best gear is manufactured in China and quality controlled and/or assembled/finished in Russia/US/Japan. Ultimately its the QA that counts in technical terms but aesthetics are another thing. For me the British made large reflector is king but thats just my personal opinion. A lot of really great equipment was made in the UK in the 80s, partly due to the enduring influence of Horace Dall. Peter Drew who is a member here made AstroSystems scopes with Rob Miller and David Hinds, Barrie Watts made Beacon Hill scopes and mounts. If you can find a scope from one of those companies it will usually be a little different to the modern Chinese gear, its British and it will usually be of excellent quality. Orion Optics mirrors are very good, they have a zygo interferometer that can test mirrors to as high a standard as anyone in the world and they aren't expensive.

[BiG JiLM]

All very interesting- and Im really glad to hear of UK Cos such as Orion, the ace looking Mr Luckhurst with his blue crane-telescope-thing and shed (now that's my kind of UK manufacturing! much like Naim Audio might have started out in 1980's) and the F1 looking sumerianoptics- beautifully made by looks of them.

I was really yes referring to the more 'normal' Joe Bloggs market as I see it prices (& for most of the market, perhaps what sub £800 ish scopes? and Im guessing of course but with reason Id like to think). Surely the size of the bigger 12"+ ones must verge on the impractical for a 'normal' folks UK garden, IE not big, so the vast majority would be sub-12" perhaps sub £1000? if so, then by looks of it I might conclude it being 90% chinese made-?

I have a Vixen EP which had a made in china, so not all japanese. Id have thought Japanes Co's would excel at the optics for telescopes be it the mirrors and EP's: Im surprised there arent more names mentioned.

Yes I read an article t'other day, in WhatHiFi/ so a normal shop mag, of an amp costing £52,000!! mindnumbingly preposterous. £52,000 on a telescope tho.. seems immediately far more sensible and rational considering the subject matter is so monumentally awe-inspiring as the night's sky. (Not that Ludvig Van, Led Zep or The Stones aren't awesome no no, but, its just chalk and cheese really isn't it!).

[BiG JiLM]

I would have thought a 'best of' or a bespoke higrade scope might have been: German mirror, UK carbon-schmarbon tube or frame and spider/ IE all the chassis bits, a Japanese focuser, and German or UK EP's. It might sit on a US or German geared tripod head thing. With UK computer-nerdery units (Ive no idea what these are yet). Im just fantasising really!

[Earl]

I wonder if he had £18,000 speakers to go with it, like the ones sold to-day by the company my Son works for

John.

Quite probably, its a different level of "gear"