The classic what scope question - help please!

[Combat squirrel]

Hello all Great forum and hello everyone.

Ok this is of course a tin open, worms everywhere kind of question!

Long-time interest in astronomy, have a couple of very much beginner scopes, which are cool for viewing features on the moon, but that’s about it.

I’m a fairly experienced photographer also, so aware of the optical properties of lenses etc (not quite the same but there is some translation of knowledge)

So now I want to get into some much more serious astronomical viewing, as well as astrophotography of course. I have around £400-450; I want a scope and mount that will allow the following:

1) Motorized mount so I can input what I want to look at (am a beginner essentially and would like the scope to point me in the right direction with a lot of things)

2) Want the ability to mount a Canon 5D mk2 and use it to take photos

3) In a perfect world if possible, hook up the scope to my PC (scope will be in my loft room pointing out the various roof windows) – although im not overly fussed if not got this.

Am willing to stretch the budget slightly should a huge leap in quality be achieved.

I know it’s a 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other question with many contenders, but from your collective wise knowledge generally the one you would go for with the above requirements?

Advice greatly appreciated, thank you

[JamesF]

The short answer is that I don't think you can really achieve what you want within that budget.

Imaging DSOs (deep sky objects -- galaxies and nebulae etc.) requires long exposures (often up to half an hour, though five or ten minutes may be more common) which means a mount that can accurately track the apparent motion of the stars across the sky. It also has to rotate the telescope about the Earth's axis to counter the apparent rotation of the target even when it is being tracked. A mount that can achieve that is going to eat all of your budget and more before you've even considered a telescope or all the other ancillary bits you'll need.

Another problem is that imaging from inside a domestic building is going to be difficult. Ideally the scope needs to be at outdoor ambient temperature before you start otherwise you're liable to suffer from instability in the image as it changes temperature. There may be quite significant air currents around heated buildings as the cool during the night, too, and those may also have an effect on image stability.

I'd recommend having a read of "Making Every Photon Count" by Steve Richards as a good place to start before you go out buying anything. The information it contains will allow you to make much better informed decisions about what might suit your situation.

James

[themos]

The cheapest Goto mount at the moment must be the http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/skywatcher-eq3-pro-synscan-goto.html EQ3 Synscan from SkyWatcher at £390. As you can see, your budget will not cover all the things you want. But you could get started with that mount and your existing camera and lenses if you leave the observing side for later.

[Combat squirrel]

Ok cool thanks, ill also occasionally take it up into snowdonia on clear nights, so dark cold nights are good there.

If someone asked you what to buy with that money, what would you say ? As a general recommendation ?

[JamesF]

The default answer for visual use is this:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian.html

It's never going to work for DSO imaging, but you're basically spending all your money on the optics and very little on the mount. You also have to do all the work of finding objects yourself.

James

[themos]

Ok cool thanks, ill also occasionally take it up into snowdonia on clear nights, so dark cold nights are good there.

If someone asked you what to buy with that money, what would you say ? As a general recommendation ?

At the moment, I would spend the first £400 on some good optics, a 200mm Canon L lens for instance. If you want to look through a telescope, get a Dobsonian 8 inch, maybe a second hand one for around £200?

[Combat squirrel]

The default answer for visual use is this:

http://www.firstligh...-dobsonian.html

It's never going to work for DSO imaging, but you're basically spending all your money on the optics and very little on the mount. You also have to do all the work of finding objects yourself.

James

Yes that's the one I was looking at, is there a motorized mount available for this and how would I attached the 5D2 ? I.e. what bracket/mount would I need for that ?

Thanks

[swamp thing]

I would get the book recommended by James. Have a good read of it then decide as to whether or not imaging is something you wanna invest in.

In the mean time. This is what I would buy if starting out again in this hobby:

http://www.firstligh...-dobsonian.html

Reasons for this

1/ Price, it's cheap

2/ Ease of use! Just point and use.

3/ portability, pick it up and carry it anywhere

4/ It's a great all round scope, it works well on panets and DSO,s

5/ Set up time, put it on the floor and you're off

6/ focal ratio, it's kind on eyepieces and stays collimated for ever

7/ toughness, this is the old boot of telescopes, tough as nails

8/ lastly resale, always a winner second hand. If you decide to move onwards with the hobby.

This is the kinda scope that you would probably keep anyway no matter where you go with the hobby it's simplicity of use makes it a winner.

[Capricorn]

So now I want to get into some much more serious astronomical viewing, as well as astrophotography of course. I have around £400-450; I want a scope and mount that will allow the following:

First decision is Visual OR Imaging.

In this case the OR is defined as an exclusice OR not an Inclusive.

For visual you want a large aperture scope, the newtonian being the standard.

Then you will require a collimator (£30) and a couple of eyepieces (£80-100)

Throw in the 200P dobsonian and there is the budget.

No motors and no goto, you push or nudge the scope to the right bit of the sky and the object drifts out of view so no chance of photography.

For photography you get a solid mount, HEQ5, a small scope, often ED or apo refractor, and attach a camera. The HEQ5 is above your budget as is the ED/apo.scope also. The mount will have to have at least a set of dual axis motors (£100), goto hikes the cost even more.

You could consider the smaller EQ5 mount but that is £515 with the goto.

As you say you are an experienced photographer so before you doubt the "real" cost go look at a Sigma lens say 500mm F/4.5 for a DSLR. They are at an RRP of £4780 - just a lens, not even zoom just a prime lens. This is the type of costs and equipment level that you are entering into.

Each of the images from Hubble have cost significantly more to get.

Astrophotography is not point and press, most DSLR's will simply ignore a request to take a astronomy photograph, the programming in them does not cater for it. Mine will not open the shutter for more then 30 seconds, so what about 120 second exposures ?

[Combat squirrel]

All very good points I have to say, I suppose I was ‘cheating’ a little to try and get the recommendation and then play with it to discover, so in a way apologies for that.

I was sort of talking I suppose from my POV where someone usually asks me, hey I have X amount of money for a camera, what do I get? Id just say a camera model. Im also a computer wizz so someone says I have X amount for a PC whats the best you will do, id just supply them with a list of parts that fit in that budget that I know are the best balance of all components, even if some are not the best money can buy, but will certainly do the job.

Ok I defo want to do astrophotography over observation, this I know, even then I know the scope ‘will do’ for observation if im not taking pics also.

And I do not doubt your comment of the cost of things, id imagine if you want to go mental with astronomy you can get stuff that’s the price of a house so im not under any illusions.

Im after an amateur setup, that will get results, better than bargain basement, but pretty decent.

In that consideration I can probs stretch to £600, im guessing there a rough £300 for the mount and £300-350 for the scope – is that doable? A blind guess is that would get me a USEABLE mount, with a hopefully OK scope (I can later upgrade the scope if I got more into it ?) – happy to go 2^nd hand as well if that gets me better stuff, as long as it works etc (My camera gear is 5D mk2, 24-70 F2.8, 70-200 F2.8IS, all second hand and working perfectly)

As for exposure time, you can expose most DSLRS for as long as you like in bulb mode with a remote trigger or if they are controlled from a PC you can set any time you want on the 5D mk2 (its limited to around 5 minutes I think due to sensor heat – this maybe rubbish but I have a vague memory of this.) But anyways yes in essence you can expose the camera as long as you like, I have some landscape shots where I exposed for 241 seconds.

I hope this has defined my needs abit more, im just completely lacking on knowledge of what’s what hardware wise, even though I know what I want it to do in theory! Lol

But bear in mind I understand it’s difficult to recommended ‘amateur’ hardware from an experts POV, It’s taken me a while to emotionally remove ‘what I’d want’ from what’s really necessary when I recommended cameras/computer hardware.

[JamesF]

In the light of what you've said I'd even more strongly recommend you have a read of Steve's book first. It will make things much easier to understand and put you in a far better position to make a judgement on what suits you.

To be brutally honest, a very large proportion of the people on SGL who are DSO imaging would probably consider themselves amateurs and it wouldn't surprise me if almost none of them could show you change from £2000 and not too many from £3000. Which is not to say that it can't be done much less expensively, but you need to pick up kit second hand, be prepared to build electronic bits and pieces yourself and put a lot more effort in, as well as understanding that by taking that route there may well be some things that are just unachievable.

James

[themos]

Point your 5D (with your 70-200mm zoom lens zoomed in) to Polaris (North Star). and see how long an exposure you can get without trailing. Have a look at the star shapes at the edges, are you happy with them? Try closing the aperture a bit. This will tell you how good your optics are. You can then make a "barn door mount" (two planks of wood with a hinge and a screw) that will let you take longer exposures of fields away from Polaris. Throw in a stepper motor and an Arduino and you have your own computerised equatorial mount. Save your pennies for the good quality optics that you can't make yourself. Just throwing out ideas..

[earth titan]

Wow. That's a tight budget.

It can be done for less - I did some on a 80 achromatic scope with a clock driven EQ5 but that was around £600 - not counting eyepieces, laptops, camera etc. I got some basic images but it kept me happy.

My imaging kit, which is still basic consists of:

F4 newt £400

DSLR £ 200 s/hand

Guide scope £300 s/hand

Mount £800 s/hand

QHY5 £200 ish

Light pollution filter £100

And that's just the start.

Typed by me, using fumms...

[brantuk]

Celestron CG5 GT Goto second hand under 2yrs old circa £350

70mm-80mm wide field short tube appo refractor (doublet) circa £250 s/h

Guide scope ST80 s/h circa £50

Side by side bar plus scope dovetails circa £100 new

Dew bands and controller circa £150 s/h

DSLR (pref Canon) £200-£300 recon

Webcam with nosepiece £40 new

Other sundry cabling, connectors, field pack and accessories around £150

You're looking at £1200-£1500 with a mixture of new and s/h kit for a basic imaging rig as you describe it. This was my first imaging rig and I tried to do it for under a grand. It can be done a lot cheaper but I think you mentioned "serious imaging" and imho this is near the minimum you'd budget on that. HTH

[Combat squirrel]

Cool ill have a look at those, I already have the camera, computer etc

I just need the bits to attach my camera to and do some astrophotography

[ollypenrice]

The quality of mount you need is related to the focal length you are using. If you use a short FL camera lens a budget driven mount will do. Increase the FL and you need more accuracy. And so on. There is no way out of this.

The order of importance in AP is Mount-Camera-Optics though some might reverse Optics and Camera. Everyone says mount first.

Your present lenses and camera on an HEQ5 mount would work.

Do read Steve's book. There are big differences between daytime and night time photography.

Olly

http://ollypenrice.smugmug.com/Other/Best-of-Les-Granges/22435624_WLMPTM#!i=1793644788&k=r8HTK72

[themos]

Everyone says mount first

Except me! I say Optics first.

You can do something about the violence a bad camera or a bad mount do to your image but you cannot untangle photons that have ended up in the wrong place.

[pvaz]

If you have a 5D I'll assume you have some L glass to go with it. I would recommend to get an equatorial mount, without a scope and put a tripod ball head on the mount so you can do photography with the lenses you already have. Even so, the minimum recommended mount is the HEQ5 and that busts your budget unless you can find it 2nd hand.

This will allow you to get to grips with all the technical aspects of astro photography. while having a future prof mount that will handle scopes when you decide to add one to the rig. If you own a 400mm f/5.6L for instance, you may not even want to add a scope that soon.

Another thing to consider is that regular cameras are tunned to filter out near infra red light, as they try to capture only what human eyes can see. However many astronomical objects emit such light and photographers usually want to capture it to produce those Hubble like images. To do that you need to open the camera, reach the sensor, remove the infra red filter Canon ships it with and replace it with one more suited for astrophotography. This will pretty much ruin the camera for daytime use, that's why most people get a 2nd hand 450D to modify, instead of using their expensive 5Ds and such.

[malc-c]

Hello all Great forum and hello everyone.

Ok this is of course a tin open, worms everywhere kind of question!

Long-time interest in astronomy, have a couple of very much beginner scopes, which are cool for viewing features on the moon, but that’s about it.

I’m a fairly experienced photographer also, so aware of the optical properties of lenses etc (not quite the same but there is some translation of knowledge)

So now I want to get into some much more serious astronomical viewing, as well as astrophotography of course. I have around £400-450; I want a scope and mount that will allow the following:

1) Motorized mount so I can input what I want to look at (am a beginner essentially and would like the scope to point me in the right direction with a lot of things)

2) Want the ability to mount a Canon 5D mk2 and use it to take photos

3) In a perfect world if possible, hook up the scope to my PC (scope will be in my loft room pointing out the various roof windows) – although im not overly fussed if not got this.

Am willing to stretch the budget slightly should a huge leap in quality be achieved.

I know it’s a 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other question with many contenders, but from your collective wise knowledge generally the one you would go for with the above requirements?

Advice greatly appreciated, thank you

As others have already stated, to get the results you want you'll need to double your budget.

• Your camera is circa 800g in weight, so you'll need something scope wise with a 2" focuser
  
• The weight of the camera, scope, guidescope and guide camera (as you'll need to guide to get the decent long exposures) will dictate a mount in the HEQ5 (good) or EQ6 (better) especially as they give double the precision over the EQ5
  
• If you opt for a decent telephoto L series lens rather than a scope you'll still blow your budget, and then you still need a mount that will support it, the camera and a guide scope system.
  
• If you opt for a reflector, then you will need additional accessories such as collimators, coma correctors,filters etc again these will add a further £200 - £300
  
• Buying something that suits your budget now you will be disappointed with the results, then loose money when seeing the light and upgrade to the mount / scopes that people are suggesting (we've all got the tee shirt on this one )
  

I have to disagree with one of the posts above... The mount comes first...not the optics. What use is it if you have invested in as large as possible the high precision grounded mirrors in a reflector, or a decent large aperture triplet refractor but have it on a the cheapest EQ mount you have. The net result would be blurred images as the slightest vibration would cause the mount to wobble. You'll have far better results placing adequate optics on a decent mount.

One other point... if you do heed the advice and save up your pennies and go for something like a 200P on an HEQ5 / EQ6, and then look at bolting on the traditional ST80 with a QHY5, you wont want to use it inside your house and view through a window / skylight. Not only for the reasons already stated, but your views will be exceedingly limited.

[Combat squirrel]

Right............

Well

Ok, simple question, can ANY telescope mount a camera ? or only specific types?

[JamesF]

Many can, though there is the occasional one that has insufficient inwards focuser travel for the camera to reach the focal plane. Whether it makes sense to do so is a different question. You can think of a telescope as just another prime camera lens if you wish. Different ones have different focal lengths, focal ratios and apertures meaning that they're suitable for different jobs and have different constraints. And those constraints may have constraints.

For instance, it's not that uncommon to find people doing planetary imaging with telescopes of five to ten metres effective focal length and apertures anything up to 350mm (usually using video or webcams taking five to sixty frames a second over several minutes). The same telescope would be an absolute pig for DSO imaging, even if the entire object of interest would fit in the frame. Just as with camera lenses it's about picking the right one for the job. For DSO imaging low focal ratios are often favoured because of the wider field of view and reduction in exposure time which can often run into tens of minutes anyhow. But just as you have to consider how a full frame or crop sensor interacts with the lens of a camera, you also have to consider what effect it will have with a given telescope.

And what works for imaging may not always work for visual use because eyes and cameras don't work in the same way.

James

[malc-c]

Some scopes have issues in focusing the image on the CCD sensor as the focal point is too far inside the focuser, however most SW reflectors and refractors allow direct connection via a T-mount. Most of us here use the 300, 400, 450, 1100 Canons which are probably half the weight of your 5D.

For imaging you need an EQ mount, and one that will take the wight of the scope, camera and all additional items like guidescopes and guide cameras. Most of the guys who have been doing this for some time will suggest that the total weight of the imaging rig is 50% that of the load capacity of the mount. Basically this rules out anything below an HEQ5, which is almost double your budget...

[malc-c]

James - you type faster than me

[JamesF]

James - you type faster than me

Thirty years of practice Of course it would help if I could always hit the right ones at the right time

James

[earth titan]

Right............

Well

Ok, simple question, can ANY telescope mount a camera ? or only specific types?

Errrrrr... Here in lies another set of issues.

You can mount a camera to most scopes, as long as you have the right adaptors. Some don't have enough back focus though and some people have bought a scope only to find they can't focus. This is rare though.

Most important is that the scope will take a 2" adaptor as this means less vignetting.

Consider an 80mm refractor (semi APO) for the budget you are on and them get a reasonable mount.

Typed by me, using fumms...