Fully remote observatories: cheating or a logical progression?

[Euan]

In the wake of Stargazing Live I was talking to a colleague who lives in the Scottish Borders today about my imaging and he was telling me how amazingly black the skies are where he lives (cue envy..) He knows I do all my imaging remotely and he said "just put it in my back garden..." (joking of course)

It got me thinking. If I can have a remote observatory in my garden what's to stop it being 60 miles away? There's nothing I can think of from a technical point of view, it's really just the reality of where to site it, access and responsibility. Now ideally if you had a little holiday cottage somewhere this would be pretty easy to set up, but there are a lot of problems to work through even if you can convince someone to let you rent space, power and an internet connection on their land.

Why isn't there something in the UK that you can get in other countries such as New Mexico Skies, where you can find some of the worlds top imagers working remote observatories? OK you don't get the skies, but a good dark site would make a massive difference to a lot of UK imagers. This could even begin as a small scale collaboration between like-minded people, or why can't some of the dark sky observatories (Kielder, Galloway Forest) offer some way of doing this?

The major advantage of things like New Mexico Skies is that you actually have support staff to deal with emergencies like power failure or loss of network connectivity. If you don't have that, I suppose you can automate network loss can trigger a full shutdown, maybe UPS for power backup as well?

Then of course, the moral (?) implications, as per the thread title. Would you consider this the next logical step for imaging, or does being completely removed from the observing site make it cheating? I don't see it being in the same category as things like GRAS and Lightbuckets, in fact if anything I think if you can do this and pull it off successfully it puts you technically head and shoulders above other imagers and should be applauded and encouraged, anyone agree?

[RobH]

I would dearly like a remote obs on a mountaintop in new Mexico (and another in Australia), but it wouldn't put me 'head and shoulders' above other imagers technically.....all it would do would remove my ability to walk down the garden and fix things when they go wrong, and go wrong they do, especially at the most inopportune times.

As a famous engineer once said....'the more you overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the works'

Cheating....no, it's not a competition.

[Jessun]

I think it's an interesting concept, and without any extensive googling I know there's setups like this out there (perhaps not in New Mexico - can't remember the locations).

If I had a second home somewhere I'd happily run it remotely from elsewhere. It is not cheating - nor is it cheating having Hubble in orbit - but for me personally it would remove the hands-on aspect of it all if I never tinkered with the setup. It is just something I enjoy, and part of the know-how that makes the hobby more fulfilling I think.

[FraserClarke]

Why isn't there something in the UK that you can get in other countries such as New Mexico Skies ... OK you don't get the skies

I think that is the key. In the UK, you can get usable observations about 30-40% of the time (at least here in Oxfordshire). That makes your cost per photon about twice what it is at a good site with 80%+ usable conditions.

If you wanted to hire the time out, I don't imagine people would stomach the additional charge-per-hour you'd need to have to make it economic. I guess what you are thinking is having a site with minimum infrastructure (network, UPS, etc) where people can install their own kit, rather than the site owner providing the kit for hire?

That would seem like a feasible route for someone who already has a site and hosts visiting astronomers. I'm sure there is an astronomy B&B or such in Galloway isn't there? And something equivalent in Dartmoor?? Maybe someone like Olly is is reading the thread??

How much would be prepared to pay for a year's hire of a pier, power, network and roll-off shed on a dark site? As you say, there isn't a technical barrier. It's probably just not economic in the UK.

[Mike Hawtin]

Just came across this thread whilst idly browsing and had a little smile to myself. About five years ago before retiring and moving to Cyprus I posted a request on another, at that time large UK astro forum, for co-conspirators to start a remote imaging set up over here. The plan was for a small group of no more than five or so to club together and buy the kit for a top notch set up, the idea being to share access in rotation and with myself providing on site maintenance and perhaps accommodation for astro holidays for the group members. Guess what the response was?????????????? Absolutely nothing, zip, nil, nada! Still can't really understand why, I would have jumped at the chance personally but there you go, and here I am with my own less spectacular but still very rewarding set up.

[Catanonia]

Cost is the simple answer.

Most of my observatory is automated other than power up and rolling the roof, but the amount of times things go wrong and I need to timker is almost every night. But it is at the bottom of the garden and it is not 60 miles away.

To overcome this, you need fool proof kit and that costs. and then someone to guard it, look after it as things will go wrong and this all costs.

That is one of the reasons the online scope hire is so limited, cost at over $50 an hour to rent a scope ? eeek, when I image, I image for over 12 hour in the winter !!!!

[malc-c]

The other night, due to health reasons, I RDC'd into the observatory and did most of the evening session (until the clouds rolled in) from my PC in the lounge. Whilst, like the above post, my observatory is 50 feet away at the bottom of the garden I felt so disconnected with what is actually going on. There was no telling if any cables were snagging, and half way through the camera battery decided to dump its charge and needed replacing... not something you could do if the observatory was hundreds or thousands of miles away !

[Mike Hawtin]

Cost or maintenance would not have been an issue, less than 20k split six ways and a free on site presence just a text away for any problems. Think how much the average imager has invested in kit to get at most 40 decent nights use a year in the UK. For 3k a share plus a bit more for a visual set up at home each co-owner would have the use of top quality stuff in a climate with 300 clear nights a year.

[Catanonia]

Cost or maintenance would not have been an issue, less than 20k split six ways and a free on site presence just a text away for any problems. Think how much the average imager has invested in kit to get at most 40 decent nights use a year in the UK. For 3k a share plus a bit more for a visual set up at home each co-owner would have the use of top quality stuff in a climate with 300 clear nights a year.

tempting, but kinda takes the fun away unless you kept the stuff at home too

For me, a large part of the buzz is building and maintaining it myself. What we Brits are good at in this rubbish weather.

[Demonperformer]

Were NASA 'cheating' when they put a remotely controlled telescope at another site (in orbit)?

If they can do it, why not you (another site, not necessarily orbit:D)?

[BPO]

There's remote and there's remote.

Like the OP said, there's not much difference between most sites when it comes to the technical aspects (unless you plan on setting up on Dome C or in space), so it's pretty well doable by the average person on an average budget.

It's around 15 km straight line distance from my rural house to the "remote" mountain top site I own, but it's 25 km to the site via a rough and steep 4WD track, and there are eight farm gates between the observatory and the highway. Average driving time is approximately 80-90 minutes.

A few people have expressed an interest in setting up remote observatories on my site, but some have been deterred by the logistics.

So, remote can mean many things to different people.

But is it any of it cheating? Not as far as I'm concerned. A good site is a good site, and a person would have to be crazy to not take advantage of it on some misguided "moral" grounds, IMO.

It's like those wannabe "old salts" who make a huge show of disparaging GPS and ELBs and all the other "modern rubbish", on the grounds that "Captain Cook never had any of that junk, and if it was good enough for Cook, by God it's good enough for me!", as if the mariners of Cook's time wouldn't have murdered today's sailor for his/her modern conveniences.

If you have access to a dark remote site, do whatever you can to make use of it, especially if you can do so from the comfort of your own home.

[ollypenrice]

Near me are two robotic centres. One involves a gathering of friends, including one SGL member, who run robitic domes from the same campsite. The other is a big astro gite like mine but on an enormous scale. Marc, the owner, has also bought Global Rent A Scope. He operates rental scopes from his home observatories as well.

There are issues. Making robotic setups work is very, very difficult. Marc zooms down to fix things at the nearby campsite domes quite often, I think, and at his own place he employs a full time IT technician.

I'm quite often asked if I can house robotic systems and, for lack of space, I can't. I do house Yves' telescope but that's on a special deal which benefits all involved. I think Yves felt that a human being, even as inept as myself, was likely to be more productive than a machine! Certainly, working with imaging gear all the time, I realize that it is incredibly fickle it is and the fact that it worked perfectly last night, and you haven't touched it since then, is NOT an indication that it is going to work tonight...

As for whether it's cheating or not - it isn't! You have to capture and process the images and I can promise you that getting that right on a 20 inch Plane Wave is going to be far from a doddle. If I could be sitting here at my desk right now steering a nice telescope to some southern hemisphere target I'd be as happy as a pig in muck - as long as someone else was there to pull out a USB lead and stick it in again for me!

Olly

[steppenwolf]

I don't think it is cheating as such although it doesn't appeal to me that much. I enjoy tinkering with my own gear and part of that tinkering is the 'fondle factor' and that would be missing from a totally remote experience. I actually do operate most of my sessions remotely - once the system is focused and guiding, if I'm not doing some visual work I retire indoors and download the subframes to start processing the data, only going outside every 20 minutes or so to turn the dome to keep the aperture in line with the scope. But at any time, I still have a fondle!

[Darth Takahashi]

One day I'll have a remote observatory in New Mexico, manned by Mexican minion's who can happily pull out and push back in the USB cable for me...

No more clouds, just a dry deep dark inky sky full of target to image...well that's the dream.

Full automation is of course possible and done routinely, increasing the reliability well that another story. Find the weakest link and stop repairing them rather replace them with better more reliable alternatives.

Is it cheating no, the biggest single limiting factor is the weather. I have image 3 times in the month of January 2012 and on all three occasions the weather was the limiting factor!!!

[ollypenrice]

One day I'll have a remote observatory in New Mexico, manned by Mexican minion's who can happily pull out and push back in the USB cable for me...

...which reminds me of my favourite sentence in any astronomy book I've ever read; '...so tonight the man in charge of the most powerful telescope in the world used to be a barber in San Antonio Texas, because no one in their right mind would leave an astronomer in charge of a telescope.'

Olly

[Mike Hawtin]

Certainly, working with imaging gear all the time, I realize that it is incredibly fickle it is and the fact that it worked perfectly last night, and you haven't touched it since then, is NOT an indication that it is going to work tonight...

Very delicately put Olly, when my own set up falls over I tend to be a little more colourful, fortunately my closest neighbours are a bit deaf.

[Darth Takahashi]

...which reminds me of my favourite sentence in any astronomy book I've ever read; '...so tonight the man in charge of the most powerful telescope in the world used to be a barber in San Antonio Texas, because no one in their right mind would leave an astronomer in charge of a telescope.'

Olly

Very well put:eek: I suppose I can pop over from time to time to conduct some training?

No No it goes this way up???

[Leda]

Is there any good remote online observatories that one can "rent" time on and pay by SMS for a time slot etc?

[ollypenrice]

Is there any good remote online observatories that one can "rent" time on and pay by SMS for a time slot etc?

Yes, try Lightbuckets which is run by a colleague in the astronomy providing/holiday trade. He's a good guy.

Olly

[Merlin66]

All right for you guys - you just want to use big fancy cameras and take big fancy images...... ;-)

Think of the added issues/ problems/ concerns to set up and operate a remote spectroscopic telescope....

The nearest to this is still using a grating in the converging beam not a hi-res slit spectroscope....

The AAVSO were "actively" looking at setting up a whole series of BIG telescopes fitted with a wide range of spectroscopes to follow up and augment the "traditional" variable star work they do.....after five years - they are still "looking"

Not easy....

[ollypenrice]

Just came across this thread whilst idly browsing and had a little smile to myself. About five years ago before retiring and moving to Cyprus I posted a request on another, at that time large UK astro forum, for co-conspirators to start a remote imaging set up over here. The plan was for a small group of no more than five or so to club together and buy the kit for a top notch set up, the idea being to share access in rotation and with myself providing on site maintenance and perhaps accommodation for astro holidays for the group members. Guess what the response was?????????????? Absolutely nothing, zip, nil, nada! Still can't really understand why, I would have jumped at the chance personally but there you go, and here I am with my own less spectacular but still very rewarding set up.

And my experience is the contrary! I've been consistently and increasingly asked if I'd like to host robotic setups.

Rob's point about on site maintenance for trivial fixes is dead right. A well known robotic imager with a setup near me rang the other day to see if I could put him up for the night, since he'd had a very long drive down here to fix a glitch. Unfortunately we were full, which was a shame because he's a nice guy and seriously good! The trouble is that most of the hosting places are very business-driven and charges are enormous, offset by renting out scope time to others.

Mike's point about sharing is a great idea and so logical. Yves and I work on this basis and have no issues regarding choice of target. There's no such thing as a boring target and I'll image anything. The only things on which you have to agree, and we do, is that we take as long as it takes and we share the data. If someone wanted to move on from a target before it was done properly then I'd lose interest. If all agree on the level of data then sharing should be a cynch.

Another nice form of sharing is the collaborative approach. I've done this with friends as well. Some people like to feel they collected all the data themselves and some don't. Personally I'm not at all bothered about how much I did or didn't collect, it's the picture that motivates me.

Olly