Nasa's Voyager 1 in 'cosmic purgatory' on verge of entering Milky Way

[Syzygy2011]

Read this interesting article by Tom Kennedy regarding Voyager 1 and 2 leaving the solar system and entering the uncharted territory of the 'Milky Way'... or Cosmic Purgatory as he put it?

In the article... Quote.

Ed Stone, the Voyager project scientist at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, said: "Voyager tells us now that we're in a stagnation region in the outermost layer of the bubble around our solar system. Voyager is showing that what is outside is pushing back.

Anyone have any Idea what he means by this?

[Tim]

They detected a magnetic force in opposition to the solar wind. Something like that. Ask me when the Merlot has worn off

There should be a space news item about it on the forum I think, goes back a couple months

[Grunthos]

Read this interesting article by Tom Kennedy regarding Voyager 1 and 2 l

You didn't quote the source material or provide further context so I had to do a bit of digging (a 3 week old Telegraph article?).

Further information on Voyager is to be found at the Voyager Interstellar Mission site.

The specific answer to your question is found here.

HTH

[Grunthos]

A picture speaks a thousand words.

[Syzygy2011]

Thanks Tim and Grunthos! Certainly answers the question. It was an article sent from a friend who is also on SGL but I wasn't sure what they meant by 'What is outside is pushing back'?

Do you think this has implications about space travel? It was a theory (probably just that!) about solar powered 'wind sails' that would be pushed through space like sailing ships on earth?

Would that mean, as the article say's once the ship had entered the 'doldrums of space' just outside the furthest reach of the suns solar power, and there was a force pushing it back.... might it not be going anywhere, which would effectively put paid to the idea?

[Grunthos]

Do you think this has implications about space travel? It was a theory (probably just that!) about solar powered 'wind sails' that would be pushed through space like sailing ships on earth?

Would that mean, as the article say's once the ship had entered the 'doldrums of space' just outside the furthest reach of the suns solar power, and there was a force pushing it back.... might it not be going anywhere, which would effectively put paid to the idea?

Ah, this is a completely different question to the original (hypothetical rather than factual!).

I took the easy way out and consulted Wikipedia.

[Syzygy2011]

I still find it very interesting stuff! I wonder what Prof Brian Cox's angle would be on this? I guess we won't know until V 1 and 2 pass the precipice of space and into the vast void of space?

My theory is that once out of the reaches of the sun, everything would be pulled back into the centre of the Milky Way Galaxy... a bit like the moon shots where once the Apollo spacecraft left the moons gravitational field, they effectively 'Fell' back to Earth?

Perhaps the science of it all means we would never be able to leave our galaxy as the forces within were too great to break free and not allow anything to move out into free space?...(Just my theory)

[Grunthos]

I guess we won't know until V 1 and 2 pass the precipice of space and into the vast void of space?

Yep - and the Voyagers are in the process of leaving as we write....

My theory is that once out of the reaches of the sun, everything would be pulled back into the centre of the Milky Way Galaxy..

(Grunthos puts skeptical scientist hat on:icon_scratch:)

And your evidence and/or test of falsifiability for your hypothesis is?....

Perhaps the science of it all means we would never be able to leave our galaxy as the forces within were too great to break free and not allow anything to move out into free space?...(Just my theory)

Not really.

Galaxies like stars and planets, have an escape velocity.

There's a NASA paper on the local galactic escape velocity available here if you are really interested.

Escape velocity from Earths surface is about 11km/s

Escape velocity from our Galaxy is 500+km/s...

HTH

[Syzygy2011]

As I said, it is just a theory...(my opinion) that everything would probably fall back to the centre of the galaxy? Galaxies are likened to space 'Islands'.... why else would they exist and there be nothing between them? Our nearest galaxy (Andromeda) is slowly moving toward the Milky Way, as we moving toward Andromeda.. eventually they will join in about 2 or 3 Billion years.

We don't know what exists between these voids which contain nothing for thousands of light years and perhaps they are areas we don't understand yet? They could be the answers to traveling vast distances in a short time scale, where distance and time are non existent and the physics as we know it are just a scratch on the surface.

You talk of papers from NASA regarding escape velocity from Earth and Galaxies.. but again they are theoretical... but not proven? Einsteins theory was thought to be set in stone, but recent findings by the Hadron have put that into question?

[jamespels]

As I said, it is just a theory...(my opinion) that everything would probably fall back to the centre of the galaxy?

Not going anywhere in a hurry . By observation the solar system is merrily orbiting the Milky Way - Voyagers 1 & 2 are not moving particularly quicky relative to Sol they will stay more or less in orbit, too, until they get trapped by some other star's gravity.

We don't know what exists between these voids which contain nothing for thousands of light years and perhaps they are areas we don't understand yet? They could be the answers to traveling vast distances in a short time scale, where distance and time are non existent and the physics as we know it are just a scratch on the surface.

You are correct in that we don't KNOW, but we have a very good idea. Observations of light at various frequencies, how galaxies interact with each other and so on give us a very good indication of what lies between the galaxies - essentially, not much but a trace of gas (mainly hydrogen) and dust. The known laws of physics do not measurably change over the observble universe.

One thing that does concern me here - most observations seem to suggest that we need to include dark matter and dark energy to explain them with current theories. This smacks too much to me of the old need for aether to conduct light waves and I suspect there is something we are missing, to be honest.

You talk of papers from NASA regarding escape velocity from Earth and Galaxies.. but again they are theoretical... but not proven?

Einsteins theory was thought to be set in stone, but recent findings by the Hadron have put that into question?

Escape velocities are far more than a vague theory - they go right back to Newtonian gravity, which is very well understood and fully backed up by Special Relativity for these purposes. Newton observed at the macro scale (apples, planets, stars and so on), deriving laws of physics that explained his observations. These laws stood various tests and challenges, made predictions that could be tested (the location of at least one planet was successfully predicted as a result of them) and are still perfectly valid at this scale. SR came about as observations of the micro world (atomic / subatomic) showed that gravity alone couldn't account for everything. Einstein went through a similar process to Newton and derived his laws to explain these new observations. SR has also been tested and challenged and has been shown to stand up in very extreme circumstances (most comupters rely on them, they are essential for sat-nav and research of the extreme physics of binary pulsars and similar shows SR holds perfectly); it now stands as very reliable law in its own right. It is very important to note that Einstein didn't prove Newton wrong - at the macro scale and away from the extreme circumstances that needed Einstein, Special Relativity simplifies back to Newtonian physics!

No doubt something will be discovered at some stage that needs a further revision, or some entirely new branch of physics will come along that results in new laws being discovered, but Einstein is very unlikely to be proved wrong (maybe not entirely correct, but not wrong).

Regarding the curious neutrino data from LHC, the most likely explanation is still a systematic error. Alternatively, it may be a hint of a new branch of physics (additional dimensions, micro wormholes, who knows). These is a very faint chance that it will break Special Relativity, prove Einstein wrong and cause endless headaches for all concerned but the probability of this is near-vanishingly small.

I've been doing far too much DIY and Christmas entertaining for the last few weeks and typing this is something of a relief so sorry if it's a bit long or ranty! .

[Syzygy2011]

Thanks Jamespels! You have explained it all very eloquently... and someday mankind will find the answers. I hope this will be in my lifetime!

[Slippy]

Wouldn't it be great if they decided to turn't V1 around and got it back safely, it would be the most furthest object that humans have ever touched, i think if i touched it i would drop dead. I dought it our species will ever go further than Mars, we will destory our selfs before we get enough time too.

Keep on floating V1!

[Asur84]

Wouldn't it be great if they decided to turn't V1 around and got it back safely, it would be the most furthest object that humans have ever touched, i think if i touched it i would drop dead. I dought it our species will ever go further than Mars, we will destory our selfs before we get enough time too.

Keep on floating V1!

I believe that we will be in the beginning stages of exploring further affield than our solar system in my lifetime, I am also greatly looking forward to what the voyagers find as well.

[661-pete]

Remember the 'scale of things' when you talk of the Voyagers 'leaving the Solar System'.

For all the immense distance that they have travelled, these two craft are still less than a light-day away from the Sun. Compare with the distances of the stars which are measured in light-years. It is clear that the Voyagers have a very long way still to go, before they can be said to have totally escaped the Solar System's influence!

There's still the Oort cloud (distance about 1 LY) for the Voyagers to penetrate. It would be fascinating if one of them were to make a close pass to a comet 'out there'! But alas! This won't happen for millennia, so: chances are, no-one will be around to pick up the data. And moreover, the Voyagers' batteries will have run flat long before then....

[munday]

Reading this with interest and a complete novice but I just happen to watch sky at night with two other people sometime back I do not know there names but remember them saying they expect to find out something very exiting within the year would this be voyager 1 and 2 unless someone can highlight me.

conversation over my head a little but interesting!

[jamespels]

Hi munday,

I don't know the conversation you mean (haven't seen S@N for a while) but, if it concerned the Voyagers, it was almost certainly related to the transition from solar space in inter-stellar space. Grunthos' post, above, illustrates the concept very nicely.

As 661-pete says, above, this is not the edge of the solar system (the one light day travelled is a small proportion of the way to the Oort Cloud, for instance - note there is a good chance the furthest extent of the solar system merge with the outer realms of Alpha Centauri's system, a mere 4LY away). It is the point at which solar wind (cosmic wind from the sun) weakens sufficiently to be balanced by the extra-solar cosmic wind. This forms a shock wave, similar to a sonic shock wave, as the solar system ploughs through inter-stellar space at some pace! Note the boundary is quite thick and it appears that it is turbulent, with magnetic forces in all sorts of directions as the cosmic particles bounce around. It is this boundary that the Voyagers are approaching (V1 has reached it, I think) to the excitement of scientists.

Apologies if some of the details are a bit off but that is the gist of it - I am sure more educated people on here will post corrections to the howlers...

J.

[munday]

Thank you will further read with interest, all mindblowing.

[angusb1]

I've been doing far too much DIY and Christmas entertaining for the last few weeks and typing this is something of a relief so sorry if it's a bit long or ranty! .

Its great for that here isn't it

[ScubaMike]

Ask me when the Merlot has worn off

I think this indicates what most of us turn to when the clouds roll in!