General Advice

[sirmetin]

My wife has expressed an interest in astronomy but somehow we never got round to doing anything about it. So now I have a pair of Celestron 20x80 binoculars on order (our existing ones are 8x32 and 10x25 not ideal for star gazing) with a view to taking them to the late district at the end of the month for the darker skies. For her birthday later this year or mebbe Xmas I have decided to get her a telescope for which I have a budget of up to £1000 (this has crept ever higher as I have been looking at what was needed for good views of the planets and DSOs). The budget would be for a kit of a reasonable range of eye pieces, a light polution filter, moon filter and any additional filters/adapters needed for astrophotography on the scope chosen (I would be using either a Nikon F90 or D90 nice to find a good use for my film cameras).

I started looking at the Meade ETX125 and Celeston Nexstar (4 or 5) SE and skywatcher startravel 102 and Skymax 127. Now I am thinking of the Nexstar 6SE or possibly a better quality refractor evostar 80ED for example. I believe that the stands with the Nexstar and other goto scopes are not ideal for photographs.

So here are the issues I really want help with; my wife would be mostly interested in the observation and I would look to astrophotography. We would ideally like a scope that would do both we have space in a clean painted garage to store the scope which has a door with a 3" threshold and small step into the garden. Whilst I can comfortably shift a large scope my wife is 5ft2 and could not move anything very bulky or heavy. We need something that is very quick to setup as my wife doesnt cope with being up very late well (during anything but holidays although she is happy to be up at 5am in the morning) hence the goto systems in my musings. With the issues over filters and attachements for photography, stand type and refractor or catadioptic the starting point is difficult. We would also want to take the scope to darker skies whenever we could.

I am, before anyone says, acutely aware that this all sounds like I am trying a marathon before I can walk, I am not for one minute thinking I would buy all the kit and a copy of astronomy for dummies and bam.

Although I have a budget I would not be buying all the kit at once, we would be doing some general observing finding our way round etc. and building our skills. Then we would add the other items and try new things but I would like to start in the right place where ever that may be. It is more a case of having the right point to build from and if my budget is right for what we want to be able to do.

I am aware that I will need to add other things as we go along and although I am looking at the whole package now we will be getting things in small steps especially on the photography side.

Now do I get a prize for the longest first post! JK!

[Carbon Brush]

Welcome to SGL. We don't score on post length!

May I suggest you take the time to look through and handle different scopes? An SGL member local to you might help here. Go along to your local astro soc and go out observing with them. Lastly, go to a shop.

All catalogues and web pages display excellent scopes that produce superb results, are easy to use and take 5 seconds to set up. The reality....very different.

Enjoy the choosing and don't rush it.

[brantuk]

Hi Sirmetin and welcome to SGL

I'd certainly echo the notion that visiting a shop will give a good idea of the different types and sizes of scope available.

Joining an astro soc and having a look through one or two will help set your expectations on observing - very important.

Any questions you have feel free to start a thread in the Beginners Help section and someone will be along with an answer soon - enjoy the forum!

[sirmetin]

Thank you for the welcome! My wife is from Wickersely near Rotherham so a trip to Rothervally optics would be easy to arrange as she could visit family. However it is a fair distance and when I spoke to them earlier they suggested I ring and check the scopes I want to look at are in stock.

My problem is I can spend a month or two researching before I would buy a washing machine, at the moment I suspect we would have our first scope in 2015 LOL!

[brantuk]

Lol - if it's anything to go by I spent 3 months reading, visiting forums and webpages, trawling round retailers and learning as much as I could before buying my first scope - and still didn't get it entirely right

[sirmetin]

Ok here are more questions - remember they do say it is good to have an enquiring mind

1. I started thinking a catadipotic would be best but with the idea of photograhy would i be better with a short tube high quality refractor. Would there be an apo or near apo within my budget

2. What would be the best mount type to go for assuming we need goto and photography for this first scope.

3. Would it be more expensive to set up a catadioptic for photography than a refractor (so more could be spent on the refractor)

4. Am I in the right ball park for a budget or should I be spending less or more for the end goals

5. I am aware of the meade, skywatcher and celestron brands are there others I should look at?

6. I am probably limited to less than 10kg each for stand and tripod less if possible is this reasonable

[pete_l]

First of all, an observation.

If both you and your wife are interested in astronomy, then one scope won't do. Either there will be conflict about who uses it for what: observing or photography, or one of you will dominate it and the other lose interest. There are so few clear nights that taking-turns is not really practical, you'll need one instrument each. This has advantages - each of you will be able to share their experience with the other.

So far as kit goes, you say you already have a D90 DSLR - so that's sorted your imaging "scope" for you. Welcome to the world of widefield astrophotography. Witihin your budget, I'd personally go for an 8 or 10 -inch Dob for observing and a motorised mount (sans telescope) for imaging. If the Dob is going to be a present, it has to be new - no secondhand stuff, even with a big bow tied around it If you're buying the mount for yourself, you should be able to pick up a modest motorised mount s/h - but be careful NOT to spend more on your toy than you do on her present.

[sirmetin]

The way the sharing works is I am a night owl and wife is an early bird so whilst I am happy to observe from 11 onwards my wife would be asleep then although she may return at 4 or 5 am.

I was starting to wonder if I should get her! a nice 4" refractor - a good one for - astrophotography - which would be her present (I would be ok because she would enjoy the photographs to) then if she wanted to look deeper an 8" catadioptic rather than try to get one that fits us both now a 80mm williams zenithstar maybe - would still be a great scope to start on? I think a goto mount will be essential for her on this first scope.

Would the D90 be better than using film - stacking rather than long exposure ? is that because you can stack from several nights observations ?

[pete_l]

Would the D90 be better than using film - stacking rather than long exposure ? is that because you can stack from several nights observations ?

Yes, without a doubt, for a few reasons. First of all the sensors in DSLRs are much more sensitive than film ever was - even professional film. Also film suffers from "reciprocity failure". With a digital camera you can expect that an exposure twice as long will (broadly) capture twice as many photons. With film that isn't so. The longer you expose, the less sensitive the film appears to be - so doubling exposure time doesn't double the amount of "brightness" on the developed photograph. Then as you say, you can manipulate and stack exposures to simulate a single longer one.

[brantuk]

1. I started thinking a catadipotic would be best but with the idea of photograhy would i be better with a short tube high quality refractor. Would there be an apo or near apo within my budget

Catadioptrics (Sct's and Mak's) tend to have long focal length, higher f-ratios (over f-7) and narrower fov's - makes them great for viewing and imaging planets and moon. Short tube, wide field appo's tend to be faster for imaging at under f-7 making them ideal for dso imaging, but much more expensie per aperture inch.

2. What would be the best mount type to go for assuming we need goto and photography for this first scope.

Imaging planets an alt/az driven mount is fine, but for dso's you'll need very accurate polar alignment and tracking ability, and most likely guiding. An equatorial mount is you're best option for dso's, but many have had success using alt/az on a wedge.

3. Would it be more expensive to set up a catadioptic for photography than a refractor (so more could be spent on the refractor)

Imho - you'd be well advised to think more about choosing the appropriate tool than the budget. Get a copy of "Making Every Photon Count" - it's the imagers bible and covers everything from gear to technique and processing. Then you'll be better placed to apportion budget - there will be compromises for sure.

4. Am I in the right ball park for a budget or should I be spending less or more for the end goals

See reply to 3. above.

5. I am aware of the meade, skywatcher and celestron brands are there others I should look at?

I would stick to these for now - you're cramming a lot into a tight budget and these will afford best value for money - particularly S/W. I'd consider the second hand market for some of the gear - well kept stuff can be a bargain and save a lot of money.

6. I am probably limited to less than 10kg each for stand and tripod less if possible is this reasonable

The beefier the mount the better so long as the ota (optical tube assembly) is comfortably matched. I aim at no more than circa 75%-80% of mount weight for ota's. So a 10kg mount would suggest ota's up to 7.5kg-8kg using my personal criteria.

Hope that helps

[ronin]

My advice is to calm down and wait. I had the same choice years ago, and I really wanted the nice big shiney Nexstar 8SE. I didn't get it and I actually didn't really use the scope I did buy for about 5 years.

Astrophotography is not and no where even close to photography. Also the budget you state would get the mount only if you made a semi-serious go at it.

Visit Rother Valley but think about it all.

The original post is heavily aimed at astrophotography, so a couple of basics:

You need a low f number scope, so Mak's and SCT are out.

You need a good solid equitorial, start at HEQ5.

HEQ5 is heavy, bet your wife cannot move one easily.

(Not sure if an EQ5 would be solid enough)

Visit a club, look around and find one that has people that do imaging and go see what they have and use, also the effort involved. Count on at least 30 minutes to set up a mount to start getting images. Point and Press it isn't.

Not sure that a film camera is sensible, you cannot stack on film and so you are looking at long duration exposures. On film well in excess of 30 minutes and the whole of that period would have to have an immensly accurate setup.

[lw24]

Hi,

I'd echo what someone said earlier. Instead of getting a telescope for astro-photography, why not do some widefield astro-photography, by putting your DSLR on a driven equatorial mount.

Then, you could also get her a nice catadioptic for looking, and imaging the planets, with a webcam.

Plus all of this, you could maybe get a dobsonian, for looking at Deep Sky Objects.

EQ5 Pro GoTo - £486

Vixen VMC110L - £229

Webcam - £49

Skywatcher Skyliner 150p - £197

Comes to £961, just under budget.

What do you think?

Clear Skies

Luke

[foundaplanet]

Hello sirmetin,

Welcome to the lounge I hope you enjoy it along with the wealth of information you will find all around.

As brantuk has mentioned the book "Making every Photon Count" really is a must for anyone showing an interest in imaging. It is an easy well put together read.

The best advice as already given is to go and look at the different instruments available and to get to a local astro club to have a look and see how the different toys operate. It is best to take your time and enjoy finding out what is best for yourselves.

I have recently got back to owning a scope after many years of being without one (not in pieces) and I started with a Skywatcher Explorer 130p which is a very good telescope considering the cost and was able to view mostly everything I wanted to with it. It was also not too much money to end up finding out that hey really I'm too bothered about it that much anymore.

I then spent over three months reading and chatting about all the available options for my requirements prior to spending bigger. I have ended up with exactly what is right for me. The spec being, I love visual and would like to gradually get into astrophotography.

The key thing is to not jump out on a whim and enjoy the journey as much as I hope you both enjoy the destination.

Deckchairs and Binos are as much fun as a telescope..

[sirmetin]

I have been thinking about this and as I was moving to conclude the compromises required for viewing and photography would be too great especially as this was origionally intended to be a present for my wife in a few months.

I had already ordered a planisphere and a pair of higher powered binoculars (20x80 celestron) and as I have an old culman photographic tripod which also converts to a monopod. I think this would be a good start. I was also looking at a book observing the night sky with binoculars by stephen james o'mara? Any comments.

I think I will look to get a catadioptic with an alt az stand for my wife (open to suggestions light easy to use with good resolution) and take the advice of getting a mount for my camera (I have a standard 70-300mm (FX) lens which gives a decent magnification on a DX) ("Making every photon count" is on order). This way I can do some photography to learn techniques and do some observations on my wife's scope to learn my way round the sky and in due course buy a tube for photography for the mount. Are second hand mounts reasonably easy to come by? I don't suppose initially as it will just have the camera + lens it would need a particularly heavy duty one.

The comments and feedback here are really a fantastic aid to focussing thoughts and replanting feet on the ground. Thank you very much.

[Pingster]

Hi. Just my 5pence worth. I am newish to astronomy.

I started off with a pair of 15x50 binoculars and then bought a celestron 8se.

On my first few journeys to a darkish country field i took along 2 friends.

In my 8se my friends love the views of Jupitor and Saturn. Both first time they have seen them in a telescope. However their reaction to adrom M31, the dumbell and ring neb was, "hum interesting". Each taking a look for about 20secs and then had no interest in viewing again.

Thats because a 8in scope will let you see all the Messier objects. But sadly they are generally too small and dim to really observe in detail.

Yet my friends enjoyed using my 15x50 bins a lot! They were amazed how good te sky looked in them ad enjoyed the challenge of finding the faint objects with them. And using a tripod, the views of bumbell neb, M31 and m13 glob actually look pretty good, but again very small.

The point i am making is, sice lu already have bins, you need a big aperture to give your wife that wow factor. And as a result i would recommebd if you can manage it a big affordable dob by meade or skywatcher. 10in would be my min size, but if ypu can a 12in will really let you both observe and study DSO.

Dont fall for the trap of spending loads of money on tweaks and premium lens. They will give you minimum improvement from the default scope setup. For example the plossls i got with both my celestron and flextube are just as sharp as my Naglers and Ethos and oddly sometimes i am sure tey are sharper! If i cant see the DSO in my standard plossls, then i wont see them in my televue either!

So focus all your funds on the biggest aperture you can manage. Then with your spare funds buy a wide angle eyepiece, as the FOV is what for me gives you a true "lookin thru a telescope experience".

Thats mh personal experiemce and hope it helps.

[lw24]

In my 8se my friends love the views of Jupitor and Saturn. Both first time they have seen them in a telescope. However their reaction to adrom M31, the dumbell and ring neb was, "hum interesting". Each taking a look for about 20secs and then had no interest in viewing again.

One could say that's due to expectations, lack of particular interest in astronomy etc.

Not saying that your friends have/are the above.

Clear Skies

Luke

[sirmetin]

We do live in the north west in an area of high light polution, I did understand that going much more than 6" was to little benefit in such areas even with filters?

If we go too large then we will not be able to move the device easily to darker sites so it really is hobsons choice

[ollypenrice]

The visual and photographic requirements are in direct conflict, that's the trouble.

For visual you need aperture, for imaging you don't, because digtal chips are so sensitive.

For imaging you need, above all, an accurate (budget-eating) equatorial mount. For visual you need a simple, stable mount, altazimuth being fine. The inexpensive Dobsonian mount is not only cheap but excellent in visual use. It then leaves you the cash to go for better, bigger, optics.

You camera and 300mm lens will do pretty well. This image of Andromeda was shot at a focal length of just 328mm but, admittedly, in a very good telescope. (85mm F3.9) The point is, though, that 300mm is a very productive FL.

By way of a mount for the camera, the Astrotrack has to be tempting. It is a clever device, portable and accurate. It is ideal for taking to dark sites.

Olly

[Pingster]

Hi Luke, when my friends saw the same items in m 16in flextube they were, "wow, that impressive". As i said to get the wow factor in DSO you need to have above 8in imho.

Sirmetin, i actually dont understand that urban myth regarding bigger scopes not as good in the light pollution. I live in London. About 10miles from the centre of London, so for me LP is a very big problem. I own an 8in and a 16in flextube and i can say without douth the 16in gives me far better views of planets and DSO everytime. As they say aperture wins.

For example i was on a heath with street lighting all around. Jupitor in the 8in you can see the bands. But they appear grey with just a hint of colour, but so faint as to make you wonder if you imagined the colour becuase you know what it should look like from hubble photos. The max mag i could get before the image softened was x105. In the 16in i can easily see the bands as beige/brown and i went up to x210 mag and it was still sharp. I am sure it can take more mag and cant wait to see how much further it can go, hopefully tonight as the skies may be clear.

For many people a small scope is all they can afford/manage/want. And just like myself, before i had my telescope i enjoyed my bins as much as possible and love them, and still love them. But if you have some money to spend on a first scope and visual is your enjoyment, then spend the money on the size of your mirror. The bigger the better your views. Everything else will give small improvments.

Again all my personal experience, hope it helps

[Pingster]

Gosh Olly that is the most beautiful M31 i have seen, looks like a hubble

[sirmetin]

Is the Astrotrack as good as an EQ5 mount for example for camera work, I wouldn't have too much difficulty moving a heavier mount as long as it would fit in an estate car. Is the astrotrak expensive because it is very light?

Wait idea - buy a transit van - fit a slide open roof and hydraulic lifters - mount scope and voila dark skies moving observatory.

If you think it they will have done it

[ollypenrice]

Telescopes need to be on a solid platform...

The clever thing about the Astrotrack is that it uses a segment of a very large worm wheel, hence has an unguided periodic error which is lower than is usually managed using much smaller full circle worms. It also manages without counterweights.

If you can carry it in an estate, though, an HEQ5 with autoguider would probably do more. It will need an autoguider, though.

Olly

[sirmetin]

I will definitely get a good eq mount for the photography then.

Was cool tonight my wife was looking at the moon though the 10x25 leica Binos I got her as an earlier present for some breaks in the country - was pretty impressive for such small glasses - "I wonder what it would look like thoough a telsescope" she said - little does she know! - now back to choosing that scope for her

Thanks for all the help and advice so far btw - I keep popping back every few hours to look for more gems of sage wisdom - cool forum.

addenda - Astro clubs in North Manchester?

[ollypenrice]

Those 10x25 Leicas are beyond belief for their aperture - I have a pair myself - but aperture is almoast everything in visual astronomy!

Olly

[sirmetin]

20x50 Celestrons arrived today - sky was clear last night - clouded over tonight.

Also spoke to a friend at work he uses TAL scopes but suggested I look to Orion because of the generally higher grade optics. So what do people think of the VX6,VX8 (upgrade to 1/10 PV) or OMC140 1/4PV as 1/6 is too expensive.

Alternates are Skywatcher Skymax 150Pro ED80, Williams GT81 Triplet, Celestron CG6 or SE6

Would look at HEQ5 stand with synsync.