souls33k3r

2 minutes ago, bottletopburly said:

After and before 

Nice one. Do you have a detailed thread here that i can pinch some ideas from? How did you suspend the template without getting the rods getting fully submerged in the concrete? i see some blocks of some sort around the base, can't make out what that is.

Another question, since i've only dug the hole so far, do i need to make some sort of a wooden brace around the top of the hole to keep the concrete in a perfect square or whatever one uses it for?

41 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Dave is probably right - your studs are 30cm long and you would bury 20cm of it in the concrete. That is probably enough to hold without needing any of the extra things we have been discussing...

I would still try and put a bend on them; I am surprised your aintenance department doesn't have access to some heat, a big vice and hammer... I am guessing from what you said they work with big pipes and they must sometimes need slight adjustment to fit...

But if you do put them in straight, then allow the concrete a week to harden and gain strength before trying to pull down the pier on them. Just in case...

Good luck Saturday,

Gordon.

I'm not sure what they have to be honest but by the sounds of it they don't have anything that would help me bend the rods so back to another plan. I can also look in to welding some smaller rods or fins perpendicular to the M16 rod OR try and sacrifice a rod (i've got 5 of them) and see if the above video might do the trick OR last resort use resin.

I won't be looking to put the pier on the top of the concrete for a good week and a half or 2 weeks if that is at all recommended.

38 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

We've used resin to fix studs into concrete ceilings to support trays for electric cables etc which weigh a considerable amount plus we had a habit of swinging on them to hop from one scaffold tower to another, only 6mm studs I think drilled in about 3 inches.

Dave

Spiderman has got nothing on you mate  

1 minute ago, Davey-T said:

Don't overthink it, KISS

Dave

I really had to read that twice to make sure what you meant Dave #Akward lol

By the way, just found something on Youtube which might have the potential of bending it without much hassle. Let me know what you think

3 minutes ago, JamesF said:

It would be really neat if you could put something into the concrete to pre-form the holes rather than having to drill them.  Can't think of anything that would work off the top of my head though.

James

The guy from my facilities department at work did suggest something, not sure how practical and better it would be but what he said that put the concrete up to say 2 feet and then let that bit cure. Once cured, drill 4 holes and place the bolts inside of them making sure i have enough of the studs length above the top of the concrete which will then be filled with the second pour. This means it will not be a single piece of concrete but two pours but not sure if both pours when done at different times would be as strong as one pour.

4 minutes ago, bottletopburly said:

I found the easiest way to bend rod was drill a hole in an old council path to depth needed   insert , then use a lump hammer and a bit of 4x2  bend to suit 

What size threaded rods did you try bending?

4 hours ago, bottletopburly said:

Are you mixing concrete by hand or mixer , don’t mix by hand  electric mixer hire cheep as chips and easy on the back , 👍

Well it will be done by hand as my next door neighbour who's a plumber by trade and just quite recently done up his entire house by himself seems to find filling the hole an hour worth of a job trust me when i say this, he's no ordinary human

9 hours ago, DaveS said:

I ordered 10 packs of 16mm studs and capsules from Screwfix, they were the Rawelplug ones.

I dropped the capsules into the holes, banged the studs in with a heavy hammer, then used the driving socket provided with the studs to drive them in further using an ordinary cordless drill.

The 18 mm holes were drilled with my 1500 watt sds drill and a long bit. I had to grip the motor between my knees and put my whole weight on the drill with both hands.

wowzer! that must've taken some force to drill the hole in. I reckon i will end up doing just that given i can't seen to get the threaded rods bent. They are a massive chunk for sure

15 minutes ago, DaveS said:

When I bolted my pier down I drilled 18 mm holes and dropped a resin capsule down (After brushing out the holes) before banging the stud down.

When you said banging the studs, you actually meant banging them and not making sure they screw in create groves in the resin mixture? 

Would you mind telling me what's a good resin? I see some are cheap and some expensive. Don't know which to buy. This is going to be my plan C if plan A which is trying to bend the bolts don't work and plan B which is to weld some fins to it doesn't either. 

48 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Nuts and bolts in B&Q are a nightmare, lots of sizes they say they've got are empty and a complete muddle from folk chucking them in the wrong boxes.

Dave

I agree with that. Been there once trying to find the correct nuts and ended up with quite a few wrong size ones. 

39 minutes ago, Kev M said:

Might be better off at Screwfix

 

Yeah they do them but only in a pack of 50. Fleabay is the only better option. I've just recently bought a pack of 10. They also had them in a pack of 4 but because I'm only a few days shy of pouting the concrete in, I won't be able to get hold of them. So will try my local builders merchant on Saturday because by the time I come, they've already closed their shop by then.

Just to add to this, the weight of a EdgeHD 8 and Esprit 100 is the same

55 minutes ago, Helen said:

My pier did ring - enough to be annoying (and I'm partially deaf!) - so I retro-filled it with play sand 🙂

Helen

I will have a hole in the pier so if it does, then I'll do just that

2 hours ago, JamesF said:

A builders merchant may well have M16 nuts.  According to their website, even B&Q carry them.

James

B&Q is a bit far from my home but good shout on the builders merchant front, will check with them on Saturday

20 hours ago, Bukko said:

Ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers...

A single washer should be enough, if the surface is flat. If not, then its best to pack the lowest point with another washer.

For what it's worth, I secured my piers between nuts and washers; from the ground up, there is a nut, then a washer.. Then the pier, then another washer and finally a top nut.

I know there is no technical need for the pier to be vertical, but from an engineering point of view, it is important.

The pier can be levelled on the four bottom nuts. then the top four can be used to tighten it down. It really does need to be a minimum distance and pull it down tight. Two spanners for each corner, hold the bottom nut still and then tighten the top one.

All I added was some sand/cement mortar under the pier to improve the rigidity of the system.

Hope this helps.

Gordon.

Cheers Gordon, this sounds like a plan and i appreciate you telling me the formation of the nuts and washers on the threaded rod. This really is helpful. I do have enough nuts (well i've got 10 of them with 2 to spare) so can look in to the exact formation.

19 hours ago, JamesF said:

A few thoughts from me...

Bending M16 rod will be a pig of a job without the right tools, but a gentle curve along part of the length will be sufficient.  Anything so it isn't straight and therefore can't turn in the finished concrete, really.  Failing that I'd probably lock a 50mm square washer between two nuts at one end and bury that in the concrete.

It's a good idea to use a post or a bit of wood to tamp the concrete down.  After each mix you pour into the hole wouldn't be a bad idea.  It helps to settle the mixture into all the nooks and crannies rather than leaving bubbles.  Particularly important when you've put your threaded rods in and want it to take up all the space around them.

Bracing on the pier: I bet many people have no idea that they can justify in engineering terms whether it's required or not.  I have seen youtube videos made by people trying to sell very expensive piers who spout an utter load of rubbish about it.  Really it comes down to the thickness of the steel, the quality of the welding and, probably most important of all, the diameter of the pier.  Diameter trumps pretty much everything when it comes to resisting deflection.  It doesn't even make a whole heap of difference if the pier is solid or a tube, so don't feel compelled to fill it with anything.  It is possible to calculate the deflection in a steel tube of a given length and thickness when a given force is applied at one end, but I can't recall how to do it.  You may be able to find a well-presented posting about it on CN though (from some years back).  As for whether it "rings" or not, well, if you don't go smacking it with a hammer when you're imaging that's unlikely to be an issue.  Personally, if it's easy for you to add them later if you find it's necessary,  then I'd say do without for the time being.  If it will be a pain to add them later and you're cautious, perhaps it's more sensible to add them at the start.

And for nuts, bolts and similar hardware, ebay can be a very handy source for small-volume orders.  I and others on SGL have been very happy with the service from Kay's, though I've used others too (BoltWorld spring to mind).

James

Cheers for the very detailed reply James. I brought in the M16 rods in to work and was told that the machine that they had would not be able to take in short rods like this so basically i now have to figure out a way to have these bolts sunk in straight. Also a bit unfortunate that i only have 10 x M16 nuts so i'm short of at least 6 to lock in a square washer and since i'm pouring in the concrete this weekend, there isn't enough time to order it now
I will definitely be using a timber (4x2) to tamp the concrete down. You do make a valid point about the whole pier construction, i am definitely not looking to over engineer it but rather keep it simple. As for the fins, like you said, it could possibly be a pain to add them later but that is exactly what i will have to settle for now UNLESS in between now and the pier gets the hammerite paint job done i find something then yes otherwise no.
Funny you should mention Boltworld, i've just ordered the nuts from these guys and in small (very reasonably priced as well i must admit) quantity.

5 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Perfect.

Gordon.

Sweet as! 

Now one quick question, how much gap between the base plate and the concrete should I aim for really? The reason why I ask is because I was over at screwfix and they had 3mm thick ones only. 

Just popped over to Screwfix and bought these M16, 300mm long threaded bolts. 

Never realised how heavy these would be collectively. 

Just to give you an idea how thick these are. Nearly as thick as my fingers. 

Was about to hit the buy button on Wickes and the delivery charge was £35 which brought in the total to £99.

A quick call to a local building supplies shop and they quoted me £71 including delivery but the problem was they needed to be paid upfront. Their shop closes at 5:30pm and i don't finish work until 6pm. While trying to ask them if i can pay them on Saturday just before the delivery, i heard someone talking in Punjabi in the background so politely asked him if he can speak Punjabi as well to which he said yes. A minute later in to the conversation, the guy agreed for the payment to be made either using a card machine or cash at the time of delivery. Result  

1 minute ago, spillage said:

depending on your storage facilities it may be worth getting the cement that is in the plastic bags rather than the paper ones. I have left the ones in plastic outside for months and it has been fine to use.

Well whatever i buy, i'm expecting it to use it by this weekend. It will be stored in the shed until the weekend. Plus this is what wickes does any way

Going to place an order shortly for the ballast and concrete. Keeping it a 4:1 mix so that is 20 bags of ballast and 5 bags of cement.

14 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

I've bent it in a big vice with a big hammer, be careful though as it will probably bounce off and come came and hit you 

Dave

I can't remember where i saw it (must've been youtube i reckon) where a threaded rod was placed in between two pieces of steel pipe and pulled on one of those pipes to get the bed. Not sure M16s are going to be that easy to do

3 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Be careful trying to bend this stuff in a pipe bending machine...

It is pretty strong and often high tensile so if the machine is for copper, then it might break. If designed for bending steel and is hydraulic, then no problem. Hopefully they know what they are doing. If in any doubt, have them warm it up and hit it with a hammer in a vice.

Gordon.

Wise words. Thank you sir will make sure of this.

1 minute ago, Bukko said:

From my picture, the plan was to bury the lot in the concrete. The hexagonal shape of the nuts improves the resistance to breaking free and the stud pulling out. The washers would also improve the adhesion to the concrete. The idea was to replicate the purpose of bending the stud.

Fixing the pier to the studs is another matter.

You would be extremely fortunate to get a perfectly flat concrete base. Even if you did, it would be worth considering the possibility that the pier baseplate might distort during welding... As Dave said, he maintains a small gap between the pier and the concrete, where I chose to fill the space with grout.

There is always more than one option...

Gordon.

Ah i see ... it make total sense now.

I have just walked around our facilities (maintenance) department chaps and apparently we have a pipe bending machine at work that should work for bending the threaded rods.

I'm glad this is an on-going conversation with you fine chaps because there would've been a lot i could've done wrong so the washers idea is absolute pukka

1 minute ago, Davey-T said:

It's tricky to get the concrete perfectly flat and level, given the relatively small area of the pier base it doesn't take much to make the pier lean, also takes care of and mechanical discrepancies in the pier.

Dave

That's exactly what i thought but i wanted to be sure of that. 

I'm laughing my head off right now. These nuts and washers come in a pack of 50. I only need a handful lol

3 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Better resting on the area around the studs than on the concrete with an air gap on the studs.

None of my feet touch the ground they've all got washers on the studs.

Dave

But just so that i have this clear in my head, why is it not advisable to rest the base plate on the concrete? Thank God you mentioned that because otherwise i would going to do just that

18 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

This is mine with dome nut keeps all that muck thrown up by the rain out of the thread.

It's may also be an idea to get some thick stainless steel washers to drop over the studs under the pier base plate to make sure it's not balanced on a bump in the concrete, also help with shimming it to get it upright if needed

Dave

So i'm guessing the base plate resting on washers is going to be alright? i mean it doesn't loose the stability of the pier?

13 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Here is a snap of a piece of M16 studding with some nuts on it.

I fitted some big washers, kind of how Mark was commenting on adding some square washers.

Hope it helps.

Gordon.

 

Cheer for the image Gordon. Just need slight clarification if you don't mind.

So the nuts marked in red get sunk in to the concrete?

The base plate then rests on the nut and washer marked in yellow?

The nut marked in purple is to tighten the pier to the base plate?

6 minutes ago, spillage said:

If you already have you pier then you can use a bit of ply wood as a template. Mark up and drill out the holes in the ply so it matches the pier then bolt the rods to the ply. Sink this down into the concrete up to the ply us a level to make sure its all level and then just remove the top nuts take away the board and your studs should be in the right place and level.

Yes i will be using a template.

5 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Alternatively, if you get a decent pack of M16 nuts, you can simply lock them together in pairs and embed them in the concrete. This will hold more than enough for you to tighten the pier down.

I'm not sure i follow the above statement. The embedding them in the concrete bit. Trying to visualise it in my head (because i've never seen this) but i can't. Is there an image or something i can take a look at to better understand what you mean?

You're quite right mate, they will be a bit of a pain to bend but it makes sense to go for these. Mind if i ask what bolt size you used for your pier?

Cheers for the luck because i know i'll need it but i have full faith in my neighbour, the dude is nothing short of superman 

Cheers for the valuable advice @Xplode and @Bukko. On hand i would like to keep the cost down and yet not compromise on the integrity of the pier. I guess i'm less worried about the rust because i can always paint it with a coat of hammerite metal paint.

I'll be looking in to the M16 threaded rods which might be a bit of pain to bend but bend i shall nonetheless even if they are slightly.

Also in other news, i came home and saw my neighbour outside so thought i should thank him once again for offering his help to which he asked how i got on with hiring the cement mixer, i told him that i can get it but will need to go and grab it to which he replied "Ah, don't worry about it, it's not a massive job so we will mix it by hand and ourselves it should only take an hour or so" 😲 .... i thought i should give him a fair chance to re-evaluate his statement i said "Do you want to see how big the hole is?" which he agreed and said "Yeah that's not a problem at all". I then asked him how much ballast he reckons i'll need and he said "Probably about 20 bags" ... bloody spot on because that's exactly how much it was required. 

Oh so he reckons we should do it this weekend so hopefully everything will be moving along nicely and quickly