Beginners Scope ??

[Ad Astra]

Hi Chris,

Let me see if I can simplify things for you a bit, as you seem to be stressing over the details and choices. As they say in the movies: "You can trust me, I'm a Doctor!" Actually, I teach hundreds of people introductory astronomy in both high school and college every year, and for what it's worth, this is how we start everyone out.

My 'workhorse' telescope for beginners is the 150mm f/8 Dobsonian (like the 150P over there, I think). The scope has many advantages:

1. Lightweight and rugged - easy for anyone from young kids to the elderly to use and set up. And you don't have to be afraid to let the kids use it, either. I have an even dozen of these on three campuses, and some have been in service for over 10 years and still work great.

2. Simplicity, simplicity! No gears, no levers, no buttons, no cables, no batteries, no computers, no alignment... NO FUSS. You can learn to point and use a scope like this in minutes, and perfect your technique easily over time.

3. (Almost) maintainence free. The f/8 scope is easy to collimate, very forgiving of small errors, and holds collimation very well. Once properly adjusted, and used with care, you won't need to touch collimation for quite awhile. Keep the dust cap on when not in use and that's it. I live and work in the (very) dusty desert, and I only clean mirrors once a year - you probably won't have to do it for years.

4. Easy to store, Easy to transport. The modest size and mass make it not only easy to move about and set up, but easy to pack into the boot for a bit of dark sky fun at a star party. These take up only an 18-inch square on the floor, so finding room for them is not a problem. EQ mounted scopes by nature need much more space, or must be disassembled before you can achieve compact storage. (Dob scopes have no tripod to worry about, either.)

5. You are paying for optics (and great views!) not for bells and whistles! Since you aren't buying a tripod, EQ mount head, gears, motors, or on-board computers - the dob is a great value. The best view for the money, hands down.

6. Easy on the wallet. Don't forget that you will want to add a few accessories like a wide angle (32-40mm) eyepiece for deep sky stuff and a high power (5-9mm) eyepiece for planetary work, perhaps a barlow lens (magnification doubler), a lunar filter (the moon is incredibly bright in a scope!), a star map, eyepiece case, and a red LED torch for use at night (it doesn't ruin your night vision like white light does.)

Yes, there are some upgrades you may wish to consider:

A) You can go bigger. A 200mm will store in about the same space, and is only slightly bigger physically (although about double the mass). More aperture will give you brighter views, and enable you to see 'deeper' into space to capture even fainter objects. If you have the money, this isn't a bad idea at all. Be cautious though, if you go bigger than 200mm, the scopes get physically large rather quickly! If you haven't gone to a local club's star party yet, NOW would be a good time. Lots of mates there to help you out, and you can see a wide variety of scopes from the very simple to the really grand.

You can add a computer. "intelligent" dobs are available which do not move the scope (no motors), but they do help you point the scope. This can be very valuable in a light polluted area, but be aware that these things really up the complexity and make the learnnig curve much steeper. The good news is that these sort of 'passive' computer systems can easily be turned off, allowing you to use the scope manually. Not so with most GoTo models.

As for an EQ mount, goto system, or astrophotography - let that wait a bit. If you have a nice dob of 150-200 mm, you CAN buy an EQ mount for it later and upgrade if you want to. The conversion isn't hard at all. Astrophotography is an entire new set of skills that require excellent basic telescope operation and astronomy skills first. Add complexity only when you have achieved mastery of what you already have!

I really want you to succeed and have a blast, mate. No need to stress about getting the 'ultimate kit' right away. A nice dob will meet your needs optically - and your need for simplicty and stress-free observing. These scopes also hold their value very well, so if you decide to sell it off and upgrade in a year or so, you won't lose very much. I'm willing to bet you never sell your trusty dob, though. Many of us simply get our 'second' scope to do what the first one won't.

I hope that is helpful, feel free to PM me if you have specific questions - I'd be happy to help.

Cheers,

Dan

[Chris E]

Wahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I got to use my wifes uncles scope last night (cessegrain 200mm) and I saw Saturn for the first time in my life, I was like a cat that had got the cream, and had a smile on my face all night, my god doesn't it move quick through the eyepeice, changed down to a 9.7mm eye piece and it was great, tried the Barlows lense...............not a chance couldn't see a thing lol, only dissapointment was that it was really small, I thought saturn would have half filled the eyepiece, ahh well I've seen it now...Are there any scopes that might show it bigger through the eyepiece ???... Scope used last night Meade LX10 EMC...One very happy SGL member ;-)))))

[brantuk]

Congrats Chris - Saturn is indeed jaw dropping first time round, and totally fascinating every other time too

You can get higher magnification - up to 200x to 250x max in the UK depending on atmospheric conditions. But to do that you need a tracking mount to follow it cos it just moves too quickly through the eyepiece to track manually and the image deteriorates at higher mags. You also need very good quality optics and eyepieces which are expensive.

Consider yourself initiated lol

[Chris E]

Congrats Chris - Saturn is indeed jaw dropping first time round, and totally fascinating every other time too

You can get higher magnification - up to 200x to 250x max in the UK depending on atmospheric conditions. But to do that you need a tracking mount to follow it cos it just moves too quickly through the eyepiece to track manually and the image deteriorates at higher mags. You also need very good quality optics and eyepieces which are expensive.

Consider yourself initiated lol

Ok, cheers Brant, when you say magnification, Do I buy the scope (Say a Dob 200) and get them to fit the 200x or 250x, or do you buy and fit them yourself ???....I think the dob only had 48x and 120x as standared ???

[NickK]

Magnification is: scope focal length / eyepiece focal length = magnification

So the looking at the Meade LX10 EMC stats:

Diameter (aperture): 203mm

Focal Length: 2000mm

Focal ratio: f/10 (ie 2000/203 = f10.3)

A 9.3 mm eyepiece would have given you: 2000 / 9.3 = 215x magnification

If your barlow was 2x then 9.3/2 = 4.65mm EP.. so that would be 2000 / 4.65 = 430x magnification!! Which explains why you'd find it black!

[Adz]

Sounds like you are on the drugs I have been taking for some time now

+1 Vote for the Skyliner dobsonians, I have the 200p and it is so versatile, manoeuvrable, highest performance to cost ratio I can think of.

I am currently writing an extensive Skyliner guide, it may be worth a read for you.

Eyepieces determine all sorts of things with a scope, including the magnification, field of view, contrast etc. So it is worth putting a little money aside the the scope purchase if possible, to get the most out of things.

HTH

As mentioned, you can PM me too for advice, I don't mind trying to answer question after question. No one wants to make a duff first purchase

[Chris E]

Ok people, I think I've narrowed it down to 2 scopes...Skywatcher Explorer 200P EQ5 Reflectors - Skywatcher Explorer 200P EQ5, and the Dobsonian Skywatcher Skyliner 200P , Dobsonians - Skywatcher Skyliner 200P Dobsonian, I'm in an awkward position, as I'm new to this my wifes uncle who is visiting us for easter has offered to buy me this to go with the Skywatcher , http://firstlightoptics.com/proddetail.php?prod=EQ5GOTOkit and a little embarassed he has offered to buy me this upgrade, But he know's I'll struggle finding stuff as a beginner...Do I rip his arm off and take up his offer and get the GOTO with the Skywatcher 200p...???

[NickK]

It could point you into astrophotography (pun intended)... The motor kit would offer full RA/DEC movement for tracking as well as GOTO.

I thing you'd get a load more use out of the GOTO and EQ mount than the dob to be honest... but it's only a matter of time before you join the dark side of astronomy (AP)

[Chris E]

It could point you into astrophotography (pun intended)... The motor kit would offer full RA/DEC movement for tracking as well as GOTO.

I thing you'd get a load more use out of the GOTO and EQ mount than the dob to be honest... but it's only a matter of time before you join the dark side of astronomy (AP)

What does that mean lol, are you saying I should go for the Skywatcher 200p.....But I'll need the Dob for the darkside ?? Help lol

[lw24]

Hmm, tough one this is...

If he's willing to pay £250 towards your purchase, why not ask if he can put some money towards this telescope.

Much easier to use, and it's got GoTo

[lw24]

What does that mean lol, are you saying I should go for the Skywatcher 200p.....But I'll need the Dob for the darkside ?? Help lol

Sorry to criticise NickK, but I think he worded his reply strangely.

The 'Dark Side' of Astronomy is Astro-Photography. It's called the Dark Side, because it forces you to spend loads of money to get the equipment you want to do it well. It's also known as the 'Slippery Slope'. My advice: don't get interested in it!

Dobsonians are NO GOOD for Astro-Photography, whereas a telescope mounted on an EQ5 with tracking + goto is good for Astro-Photography

[Chris E]

Sorry to criticise NickK, but I think he worded his reply strangely.

The 'Dark Side' of Astronomy is Astro-Photography. It's called the Dark Side, because it forces you to spend loads of money to get the equipment you want to do it well. It's also known as the 'Slippery Slope'. My advice: don't get interested in it!

Dobsonians are NO GOOD for Astro-Photography, whereas a telescope mounted on an EQ5 with tracking + goto is good for Astro-Photography

Cheers fella, and now someone has thrown a spanner in the works on "You tube", he said words to the effect of "he spent time on his kness in the frost and snow with these mounts" and said something like an Alt/az or something like that was a better mount, I'm getting annoyed again now lol

[lw24]

Hahaha, that's ridiculous. With a reflector, you're never on your knees, as you look through the top of the tube, which is pointing towards the sky.

With a refractor (what I have), I am occasionally on my knees, as I look through the bottom of the tube, but I don't find it bad at all...

[NickK]

Hehe - yes 'the dark side' is astrophotography (commonly abbreviated to AP). AP doesn't stop you using the scope visually as normal but it offers future options.

Cheers fella, and now someone has thrown a spanner in the works on "You tube", he said words to the effect of "he spent time on his kness in the frost and snow with these mounts" and said something like an Alt/az or something like that was a better mount, I'm getting annoyed again now lol

Alt/Az mounts are simple left-right/up-down mounts. In order to track a star an AltAz mount need to move both both axes to track. An equatorial mount (when correctly aligned) will only need to move one axis thus is deemed better as the subject is more stable and less lightly to mis-track.

The kneeling in the snow is referring to the polar alignment of EQ mounts which involves looking through the mount (there's a little 'scope inside) to align the axes with true north.

As lw24 has said - AltAz mounts are no good for AP as the mount has to move both axes and usually fails miserably to do that smoothly enough to give a blur free image.

EQ mounts take more time to set up, but once set up give superior tracking - which makes them idea for AP.

An EQ mount can appear frightening but once you understand why it's at odd angles then the extra hassle is worth it (in my opinion). The dob is plonk-n-play.

To stop yourself going around in circles - I'll refer to the priority list I mentioned originally. Have a rethink with the EQ GOTO mount offer (and what you can do with it). Take both scopes - tick the boxes on your priorities and then go with the one that ticks the most important for you.. 'simples'

[brantuk]

You can do astro photography with a tracking dob but because of the alt/az mount and the way it tracks you are limited to shorter exposures (up to about 2 mins) before star trailing starts to happen. This means you are generally restricted to planets only.

For dso's you need to track (and guide) in a single plane, which is only possible on polar aligned eq mounts, to achieve exposures of 5 or 10mins at a time. You need that length of time cos dso's are very faint.

[Chris E]

Hahaha, that's ridiculous. With a reflector, you're never on your knees, as you look through the top of the tube, which is pointing towards the sky.

With a refractor (what I have), I am occasionally on my knees, as I look through the bottom of the tube, but I don't find it bad at all...

I'll try and find the link again to you tube lol....Just have a read of the 3rd/4th Paragraph down

[lw24]

"Too often the equatorial has you on your knees, in the snow, or frost, with a crick in the neck."

All I can say is that that's absolute rubbish.

[John]

"Too often the equatorial has you on your knees, in the snow, or frost, with a crick in the neck."

All I can say is that that's absolute rubbish.

Well it's true if you don't rotate the tube to get the eyepiece & finder to an accessible position - if you have a heavy optical tube (eg: 10" newtonian) it's not always easy to just loosen the tube rings and rotate it.

With an alt-az mount, the eyepiece / finder is always in a convenient position although not always at a good height

[Chris E]

"Too often the equatorial has you on your knees, in the snow, or frost, with a crick in the neck."

All I can say is that that's absolute rubbish.

Cheers Iw, I appreciate the "putting my mind at rest" about the EQ's, Well thats it I think unless anybody has any objections, I think its the Skywatcher Explorer 200P, with the EQ5 thinghy with the Synscan pro GOTO upgrade kit...So someone is getting a phone call soon , wahoo, my 1st scope

Chris

[lw24]

That's a great first telescope

My first (still my only) is a ST120 (only 4.75 inch compared to your 8 inch).

Good Luck!

[Chris E]

Booooooooo, Its not gonna be here till next week at the earliest, So get ready for some really stupid questions lol, like how tight/loose do the locking nuts need to be so I don't damage the motor on the GOTO, Do I need a 5mm eyepiece to see Saturn at a decent size through the lens, Will I need to collimate it from brand new or just set the GOTO up on the North star you know, those stupid questions.

Chris