Police break up Observing Session

[Ad Astra]

Did you ever have one of those days? Sister comes over to dinner w/ her family... and her Meade 120mm f/7.5 refractor! The weather Gods bless us with nice skies and we set up after dinner, even the neighbors were nice and everyone had their lights out!

We had nice skies for a few minutes... then we had a police helicopter zoom in with their search lights! They hit us with the bazillion candle spotlight and eliminated everyone's night vision for the evening! They apparently decide that we weren't the droids they were looking for, but they kept buzzing around the neighborhood with their super light and ruining the first really clear night we have had in weeks.

Some photos below... got a nice one of the nephew on the observing chair with the 10.5 x 70's - Orion is over his shoulder and he is looking at the Pleiades. Then the AUGGGHHHH! shot, Another (eyes blasted!) photo of the silly helicopter.

We ended the evening with police still buzzing about - I sure hope they caught the nincompoop who instigated all this searching about with huge lights - he has a lot to answer for!!!

Dan

[RogerTheDodger]

From the title I thought this was going to be a tale of a star party run wild

[yeti monster]

A green laser aimed back at them might help....

[cloudbuster]

....lovely pics tho!

[Psychobilly]

A green laser aimed back at them might help....

Seeing as the OP was in the US I would hate to think what might get "aimed" back...

Billy...

[PARTY MARTY]

I thought me having problems with neighbours was bad about me observing in my back garden.

The police are disrupting the peace as well?

I'm sure you can make complaint to the police about this surely???

[brianb]

I sure hope they caught the nincompoop who instigated all this searching about with huge lights - he has a lot to answer for!!!

You were probably the "nincompoop" - some overofficious neighbour spotted you fumbling around in the dark & helpfully put in a report to the cop shop ... I've had that happen more than once, though round here a squad car full of heavies armed to the teeth is a more likely response than a helicopter overflight ...

[malc-c]

A green laser aimed back at them might help....

Last time some numpty did that at an air support unit in the UK they found themselves up in court....

I bet the OP's seeing spots before his eyes for days after been hit with a night sun !

[Ad Astra]

Hi folks,

Roger, I'd love to have an observing session so wild that the police were called, but sadly not one of my friends gets the slightest bit tight when looking at Orion's nebula!

Yeti, I do have a professional green laser (a real eye-burner that can project a visible spot an a hill 3-4 miles off!), but I only use that in public demos and when I'm absolutely sure no aircraft are about. It is wonderful, and lots of students have asked to use it "just once!" - but the answer is always NO!

Brian, I don't think I was the nincompoop (my Gran's word for people exhibiting really foolish behavior ) - my neighbors all know 'the crazy professor down the lane with the telescopes'! Most of them even leave outside lighting off for my sake, and I make an effort to invite them over once in awhile just so as to avoid such problems. We've been here for 10 years now and are fairly well known in the neighborhood.

I thought about calling to complain, but I'm sure they were trying their best to keep the neighborhood safe. Southern California can be a little odd. We have really rough and tumble areas slap against really nice neighborhoods sometimes. We are also not that far from the Mexican border (less than 2 hours by car), and I'm sure you've heard on the news that we get some pretty rough customers come north over the border sometimes!

Thanks Cloudbuster! I like the pics, too. I think the one of the nephew sitting on the observing chair with the big binos, silhouetted against the sky is a real money shot! My sister certainly liked it!

Dan

[Skylook123]

Near one of our way out in the desert observing spots, there is an airport with an Air National Guard helicopter unit, and an aviation unit from the US Border Patrol. We live in a high intensity smuggling zone (people and drugs). My observing partner and I have had that happen numerous times; so often that when we hear choppers, we back off the eyepieces and look away. We have often been buzzed by National Guard helicopters doing night practices in two to six helo teams. Being way out in the desert, we stand out on infrared and night vision goggle displays and a set of refractors and dobs can look like .50 calibre machine guns and large mortars on the sensors. With local militia activity on the ground, the Guard takes the opportunity for the practice before deploying over to Southwest Asia. First time was scary; after that, it became amusing to get buzzed at 50 feet or less by up to six aircraft checking us out. My buddy and I are retired Air Force officers, so we like the air show.

Several years ago there were about 70 of us out in our observing area for the first night of the All Arizona Messier Marathon. The owner of the farmland we used notified law enforcement prior to the event; normally he turns in as many as 20 illegal aliens a month, so he has a close relationship with the Border Patrol. Anyway, about an hour after sunset I heard the tell-tale whump whump whump in the distance, so I backed off my scope to watch the air show. However, none my dozens of companions had ever experienced the hit and run surveillance. They were hard at the eypieces in the western sky trying to catch the early setting Messiers when the leading helo buzzed at 50 feet and turned on the Night Sun. Screams all around; I think there were smoky holes out of the back of some folks' heads. Light went off, the helos sped away. Turns out the pilots at Border Patrol never got the word. The next day, Saturday, several agents came by our site offering profuse appologies, and when we had our evening kickoff for the Marathon, they addressed us as a group and let us know what was going on, and why. Some of us not formally doing the Marathon gave them a mini star party.

For about 20 years, I've kept a Radio Shack scanner close by and if I hear the noise in the air I turn it on to check if there is a legitimate chase in progress, or just practice flights. However, that site we used (along with our club's former deep sky observing site), have become recommended for abandonment by local authorities. We are just to close to the border, and too much risk with the rising drug war violence and smuggling. Just the times, I guess.

[Skylook123]

Regarding Dan's experience, local police budgets here in our area have caused the aviation units to be grounded except for certain high value hours on a few days. Most of the time, the choppers are in a hanger somewhere. No National Guard right now; they are in Southwest Asia. Border Patrol, however, I can see around the horizon most nights.

[Ad Astra]

Hi there Skylook!

As you say, the border can be a bit nuts. I'm very glad that I don't live as close as you do to the firing line!

It really sucks that you had to abandon prime observing sites because of border violence!

Dan

[G2EWS]

Hi Dan,

What a blow, but good to see you are light hearted about it. The Police do have a job to do, even if it sometimes ruins our lives in the process!!

Best regards

Chris

[Skylook123]

Hi Dan,

What a blow, but good to see you are light hearted about it. The Police do have a job to do, even if it sometimes ruins our lives in the process!!

Best regards

Chris

I must say that when I am listening to the police scanner and I hear that there is a chase in progress ("Shots Fired At Circle K"), and the law enforcement responde asks "Can we get Air One over the location?", it is disheartening to hear "Air One is not flying tonight".

So, Dan, most nights you're OK here, if you are inside the metro area. Outside, in the desert, you might have black helicopters for company.

[RobH]

When I first built the observatory, I had a visit from the police helicopter....it was early evening and the red lights were on. No doubt they had the zoomed IR camera on me, and were wondering what sort of strange weapon I had pointing to the skies!

I waved to them....they went away....a few minutes latere they came back for another look.

This went on for about 20 minutes, by which time I was getting a little fed up, so the next time they came, I gave them the 'Agincourt' gesture together with a definite 'go away' signal .

They went away, and now, it they're flying around and the obsy is open, they keep away, which is most considerate I think

Cheers

Rob

[beamish]

I gave them the 'Agincourt' gesture together with a definite 'go away' signal .

Rob

I'm guessing not the Frenchy blowing of a kiss from the hand then

[Ad Astra]

I Love "The 'Agincourt' Gesture", it sounds rather like a Robert Ludlum novel!

I'm going to use that next time a kid drops that one on me in class - "Ahem! The Agincourt Gesture is not allowed in class, Miss Garcia!"

Dan

[Talitha]

I can understand how a helicopter would be annoying (to say the least), but TBH i'd much rather get zoomed by a helicopter every night than have those Chinese lanterns floating overhead like they do in the UK.

The only helicopter in my area is the medical Flight For Life transport that flies on a SW-NE pathway directly over my land. So whenever i hear a helicopter, i don't think anything of it except to pause and say a prayer for the accident victim they're transporting.

One night a few years ago though, there was a helicopter flying SE-NW with the searchlights blazing. It was the Police looking for two young men who'd robbed a gas station about 8 miles away and had reportedly been seen driving away in my general direction. As it turned out, they were hiding in the tall grass behind the gas station where the K9 unit found them.

[brianb]

but TBH i'd much rather get zoomed by a helicopter every night than have those Chinese lanterns floating overhead like they do in the UK.

Those Chinese lanterns are certainly annoying but they tend to be much, much less bright than the moon - I'd say mag. -4 is typical. Those police/military choppers have searchlights with a very considerable candlepower, if you get caught in one they're very, very uncomfortable; much brighter than the full moon - I'd say mag. -20.

Give me a choice (and a bucket of water in case one lands locally) & I'll have the lanterns, thank you very much.

Why can't the police use infra red searchlights? They have low light cameras with IR sensitivity on board ....

[Skylook123]

I was told by my brother-in-law, a career police segeant, that his department had to stop the IR use because of a court case that judged them unreasonable warrentless search tools. A class action law suit claimed certain police agencies were hovering in areas of apartment buildings and spying in infrared without prior cause. The "in plain sight" concept of evidence gathering implies visible bandwidth. However, in a "hot pursuit", the rule of exigent circumstances can cover a lot of opportunities. Some communities may not want to spend the money and weight for both IR and visible systems. It also might be easier to coordinate a pursuit when the light beam is visible for ground units to follow.

Adventurous world out there.

[Dazzio]

We get the occasional Police or Ambulance helicopter over here, but none have shone a light at me yet. Saying that it is still early, in my star gazing career. . My whole area is a military training "ground" for the military helicopters. Seen lots of Chinooks, Lynxes and Sea Kings and only recently started to see the newer Merlins . Saw an CH-53E Super Stallion once... I'll refrase that, I felt it before I saw the blumming thing. Think it was acting as Marine One when Bush came over...

Dan, what you should of done was put a scope on your shoulder and "aimed" it at the helicopter.

Dazz

[Talitha]

Those Chinese lanterns are certainly annoying but they tend to be much, much less bright than the moon - I'd say mag. -4 is typical. Those police/military choppers have searchlights with a very considerable candlepower, if you get caught in one they're very, very uncomfortable; much brighter than the full moon - I'd say mag. -20.

Give me a choice (and a bucket of water in case one lands locally) & I'll have the lanterns, thank you very much.

What's the magnitude of a forest fire?

I'll take a helicopter any night.

[brianb]

I was told by my brother-in-law, a career police segeant, that his department had to stop the IR use because of a court case that judged them unreasonable warrentless search tools. A class action law suit claimed certain police agencies were hovering in areas of apartment buildings and spying in infrared without prior cause. The "in plain sight" concept of evidence gathering implies visible bandwidth.

A chopper displaying navigation lights is "in plain sight" whether it's using active or passive visible or IR cameras or not ... and it's certainly within earshot too.

How does this ruling affect the use of helicopters using microwave beams to patrol remote rural roads for traffic violations e.g. motorcycles speeding on the A523 between Macclesfield and Buxton? Surely that's "warrantless searching" too ...

What about every CCTV camera in the land ... if it's illegal to record on the basis that illegal activity might not be occurring, surely the whole lot of them ought to be permanently turned off.

[Skylook123]

I believe that the point is that the evidence gathered must be in plain sight. The speeder is certainly in the open and visible, and a criminal action taking place in front of an unshuttered window is in plain sight, but an action behind a curtain, not seen in visible light but detectable in IR, is considered not in plain sight.

Law enforcement in the US can certainly hide behind a signboard unseen, or be hiding in a stockroom watching for a robbery to occur, as long as the offense is in plain sight they can take action and use their observations as evidence.

The state of Hawaii has an interesting court ruling involving night operations. Their law enforcement vehicles use blue flashing emergency lights. They are required, at night, to have their emergency lights always on at a very low level and steady, not flashing. Their supreme court ruled that not having the lights visible at all times at night was a form of entrapment.

Sorry to hijack, Dan, but yes, there are law enforcement resources driving and flying around out there; something about "lawn cannons" attract them! Oh well, as long as they don't hover too long.

[Ad Astra]

I believe that the point is that the evidence gathered must be in plain sight. The speeder is certainly in the open and visible, and a criminal action taking place in front of an unshuttered window is in plain sight, but an action behind a curtain, not seen in visible light but detectable in IR, is considered not in plain sight.

Law enforcement in the US can certainly hide behind a signboard unseen, or be hiding in a stockroom watching for a robbery to occur, as long as the offense is in plain sight they can take action and use their observations as evidence.

The state of Hawaii has an interesting court ruling involving night operations. Their law enforcement vehicles use blue flashing emergency lights. They are required, at night, to have their emergency lights always on at a very low level and steady, not flashing. Their supreme court ruled that not having the lights visible at all times at night was a form of entrapment.

Sorry to hijack, Dan, but yes, there are law enforcement resources driving and flying around out there; something about "lawn cannons" attract them! Oh well, as long as they don't hover too long.

It isn't really hijack, Jim - I guess I didn't realize how much of an issue it is for people in different parts of the world.

As far as our local folks in blue go - I'm glad to have them, actually. They are at the 'sharp point of the lance' that keeps my neighborhood safe when there is a horrible war going on just a few hundred kilometers south of my back yard - not to mention the usual heaping helping of home-grown stupidity and larceny.

They did scan my yard, but then - they were looking for someone who might have been jumping garden fences and running through such places. (Bad luck if they jump the gate in my yard!) They did flash us (Yipes!), but then they went and did their business on the next street over. It was just my bad luck they were about it for almost half an hour - but there certainly aren't any hard feelings over it!

If some bad guys do hop the gate and break into mi casa, then I want the nice fellows with their helecopters and handcuffs to come take the bad men away after the little dog is done playing with them.... Photos don't always do the LD justice, so I put up a second picture of her licking the daughter-in-law on the ear as she greets the new grandson. (that grandson is 5 years old now... ) And hey, she works in the dark without any bright lights what so ever!

Dan