Expensive flash in the pan or real hobby?

[Doug]

Hi Peter and Family

A warm welcome to the SGL

Doug

Essex

[AttackFerret]

As someone who has just taken the first few steps into astronomy I know how you feel right now.

I did alot of research, and established exactly what it was that I would realistically expect to see from the equipment that my budget allowed. As others have stated, this is incredibly important - if you expect to see picturebook images of anything in high detail and amazing colour then it would be wise to stop now.

If however you just want to see the various sights there are to see in the sky with your own eyes, then by all means get your foot on the first rung of the ladder. For me, just trying to comprehend what it is my eyes are seeing through my scope/binoculars is simply breathtaking and really puts the Earth into perspective.

To get some high quality viewing of planets/Deep Space Objects you have to expect to pay many thousands of pounds and alot of time dedication for it to 'pay off'. In your situation with the kids, this isn't advisable. You can get quite a reasonable setup for around the £500 mark, but the weight and portability of the gear very quickly increases after this point and with the potential setup time involved on a cold night, your kids may not be too happy and it might entirely dampen the experience and kill their enthusiasm at an early age.

I would highly recommend that ANYONE with a passing interest in the sky should get a good pair of binoculars and a tripod.

When I received my binoculars I was blown away by what I could see through them. I personally own 15x70 Revelation binoculars that are sold via FLO for the measly sum of £50. I can't recommend them enough, in my first few days of owning them I have had great views of various winter sights including Orion Nebula, Pleiades, numerous open clusters, the glowing 'smudge' that is Andromeda, Jupiter and 4 moons, little blue pinspec that was Uranus and many other wonderful objects....and that's just from one season with a pair of modest binoculars!

If you find yourself going outside alot to gaze at the stars with your family and a pair of decent binoculars then I feel you are ready to take the next step and get a telescope (ideally a modest reflector with a GOTO tracking system to minimise idle time and stress for example the SkyWatcher 200P with GOTO). So far I have gone out with my binoculars plenty more times than I have lugged the telescope around for a viewing session. If the interest with the binoculars wears off then buying a telescope is probably not for you.

Hope this helps,

Ash

[KenG]

I would agree with Ash. A 15x binocular and a good tripod will be well within your budget, and you'll see things you didn't know existed. From the family's point of view, this set-up is ideal, because objects aren't going to be rapidly drifting out of the field of view, and once lined up on something, everybody will be able to get a look with only minimal correction. The plus point is that the bino can also be used for wildlife.

[great_bear]

To get some high quality viewing of planets/Deep Space Objects you have to expect to pay many thousands of pounds

Erm... Nope.

You've been seriously misinformed if you think that this is the case.

[great_bear]

I would agree with Ash. A 15x binocular and a good tripod will be well within your budget, and you'll see things you didn't know existed. From the family's point of view, this set-up is ideal

Apart from the fact that Peter said the family's main interest was in planets - and you're going to see next to nothing in terms of planetary or lunar detail with a pair of binoculars!

It's very strange the way that whenever someone wants to buy a telescope, people try to talk them into buying something else.

[rowan46]

Apart from the fact that Peter said the family's main interest was in planets - and you're going to see next to nothing in terms of planetary or lunar detail with a pair of binoculars!

It's very strange the way that whenever someone wants to buy a telescope, people try to talk them into buying something else.

an excellent point I missed that bit really should pay more attention sorry

[KenG]

I have one telescope, and I've had it for about fourteen years now. It does everything I want it to do, and you know why? Because when I bought it, I knew exactly what I wanted. I'd read lots of books, I'd been buying "Sky and Telescope" for a few years as well as "Astronomy Now", I had acquired a working knowledge of astronomy, and on this site, which I've only discovered a few weeks ago, there are constant questions from "newbies" about "what should I buy?" Whatever happened to independent research, which at the end of the day is at the heart of this "hobby", for as others have pointed out on other posts, it is background knowledge which seperates the "peering" from the "seeing". Sure you can buy a scope which will "do the job", but perhaps it's not such a bad idea to know what job it is you want it to do before you buy it, and what I do know, is that eyepieces determine what you see regardless of what sort of scope it is, and the more expensive they are, the better they are. I used a tripod-mounted binocular for years before I invested a lot of money in equipment, and I still use my binocular, and it still gives me satisfaction. The enquiry is about a limited budget, family use and the possibility of a rapid discard. One hundred pounds is going to purchase a bino, tripod and book on binocular observing, which will be enough to get a dubious observer hooked or disinterested. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of buying a scope, just sugggesting a way of minimising outlay whilst they determine whether or not it's a passing phase or a serious interest.

[AttackFerret]

Fundamentally telescopes and binoculars are the same, they allow us to see what our eyes can't on their own. Binoculars are a really good way to gauge your own interest in this particular hobby without having to spend much money or invest much time. This is entirely relevant to Peter's enquiry. This is a stargazing forum, not exclusive to telescopes.

Peter's post also mentioned 'Planets etc' and 'Yes, I'd love to see some of the planets in real life, but once seen, what else is there?' which to me implies he is curious about what else is out there to see past our immediate celestial neighbours.

About the costs of astronomy, are you honestly telling me that top end astronomy *isn't* an expensive experience? With say a £500 budget you can get some amazing results sure, but they won't be 'high quality'. You get what you pay for in this hobby unless you want to lug around a massive unwieldy dobsonian (hardly what i'd call a family device).

I even suggested a cost effective starter telescope in my post, instead of belittling the advice of others how about you throw some suggestions out yourself Jeremy?

[great_bear]

just sugggesting a way of minimising outlay whilst they determine whether or not it's a passing phase or a serious interest.

Sure - I appreciate that. But the fact remains that the experience of looking at moon & planets in binoculars is so underwhelming that it'd put anyone off. It's certainly not remotely as engaging as viewing those objects at 150x plus...

A lot has changed in fourteen years; there are many more affordable options now that won't break the bank, but still provide excellent optical quality. The internet wasn't the same when you chose your scope back then. You no longer need to buy "Sky & Telescope" for several years before making a choice - you can find out everything you need to know in an afternoon.

And what if it's the wrong choice?

So what? - There's a thriving used market right here on SGL as well as astrobuysell and elsewhere. That didn't exist before either. Many people now buy/sell several scopes before they settle on one that they like - and will have learned a lot more in the process than spending years just reading the opinions of others.

With eyepiece quality it's important not to give the impression to newcomers that there's a 1:1 relation between eyepiece price and optical quality: There isn't. A £500 Ethos isn't going to throw up a better planetary view than a £60 Plossl - just a wider field-of-view, that's all - and unless one has got a particularly expensive or specialised telescope, there's technically not much justification for spending more than £38 and getting (say) a TMB Planetary or BST Explorer eyepiece provided that you're happy with a sixty-degree afov. Sure, a Radian is 'nicer' - but optically, there's not much in it.

The days when you had to spend months of research followed by an eye-watering financial outlay are long gone...

[great_bear]

Fundamentally telescopes and binoculars are the same

In the same way that a cat and a dog are "the same", yes.

About the costs of astronomy, are you honestly telling me that top end astronomy *isn't* an expensive experience?

If you're saying "expensive equipment can be expensive", then that is indeed true.

With say a £500 budget you can get some amazing results sure, but they won't be 'high quality'.

Without knowing the specification limits that define your terms, I can't possibly respond to such a statement - other than to say that it seems to be the overall standard of engineering, the satisfaction of the operational experience and the pride of ownership which causes people to invest such sums of money in astronomical equipment. It's certainly not a requirement for good views, and I've never heard anyone claim that there's a truly remarkable leap in visible detail between today's mid-range equipment and the most expensive. Indeed, the outstanding quality of modern, low-cost, mass-produced refractor doublet and triplet objectives is drawing a lot of comment from observers these days.

You get what you pay for in this hobby

That's not true for any business - least of all astronomy - where the same, identical, eyepiece or APO refractor can be found under different brand names at wildly different prices.

instead of belittling the advice of others how about you throw some suggestions out yourself Jeremy?

Well, there's plenty in my previous one thousand, one hundred posts, so the personal attack is unnecessary, thank you.

[AttackFerret]

That's hardly a personal attack. Your earlier response to me consisted of 'erm...nope, you're misinformed'. I must thank you for that very insightful comment of a cherry-picked quote taken out of context. I appreciate the advice you have given in other threads, but I thought it was a little bit rude that you were giving short sharp replies to some advice in this thread without much reasoning or any advice related to the thread.

Originally I said many thousands of pounds wpuld need to be spent to obtain high quality viewing which was probably a poor choice of words. If anything I meant to say that one shouldn't expect to see picturebook images of the planets with lowcost amateur gear which is perhaps what Peter and his kids might have expected.

I still stand by what I said in recommending a pair of 15x70 or so binoculars, even those who own midrange and higher telescopes should have a pair!

Really though Jeremy, would you not agree that alot of objects in the sky are perhaps best viewed with binoculars? Whilst as you said, planets aren't the most amazing things to see through them, I was definately not dissapointed when I first saw Jupiter and 4 moons through them.

For around about £50, they're a nice way for you to test the stargazing waters before you jump in and get a large piece of telescopic gear. They would also leave plenty of money in the budget to get a modest newtonian like a Skywatcher 130p if the binoculars left Peter and co wanting more.

[nicnac]

For around about £50, they're a nice way for you to test the stargazing waters before you jump in and get a large piece of telescopic gear. They would also leave plenty of money in the budget to get a modest newtonian like a Skywatcher 130p if the binoculars left Peter and co wanting more.

this is good advice, although i reckon the poor fella might have been scared off by now

[Mark-mck]

Hi Peter and welcome.

From your post it would seem that astronomy isn't something that you yourself seem that intrested in.

but being as your other half has always wanted one then i'd say it wont be a waste of money, couple that with the fact you have a 5,7 and a 9 year old and i'd say that the family will get alot more than £300's worth of enjoyment.

and with your kids being the age they are the stars and planets will fascinate them, but you would need to make sure they have a realistic idea of they'll see as i dare say they've been seeing really big coloured pictures of the planets in books/films at school.

hopefully you'll ignite a flame for astronomy with that spark of enthusiam they're showing at the min.

oh and i'll advise you start saving hard cos hopefully you'll be paying for 3 phd's in astrophysic's in the future.

[great_bear]

I thought it was a little bit rude that you were giving short sharp replies

Yes it was, sorry.

The problem with telescope advice on this forum is that for the majority of people asking, the best choice is typically a 130 or 150mm SkyWatcher reflector - and one can risk being accused of sounding like a broken record when continually recommending these same choices.

Really though Jeremy, would you not agree that alot of objects in the sky are perhaps best viewed with binoculars?

Most definitely, but the planets aren't one of them - and many children will be as excited at the prospect of the telescope itself as the views through it. Further, a crisp, detailed view of (say) Eratosthenes is an experience that's unparalleled by any Moon view that binoculars can provide.

I'd never have been inspired to continue with astronomy had I started with binoculars. I'd have given up, disappointed. The use of binoculars is one of those things that sounds wise with the benefit of hindsight, but it's easy to forget that the journey is an emotional, as well as practical one, and one's relationship with the equipment is an important part of that.

[malc-c]

Ok here's my 2p worth

It's never going to be an easy thing to suggest what scope (or binoculars) will suit a persons needs, as we all have very different circumstances. To some, spending £1500 or more on something like a mead LX200 is nothing compared to their overall income and it matters not if they don't use it every single clear night. To others, spending £300 on one of the Skywatcher scopes (or for that matter some 15 x 70 binos) is a big outlay. So really none of us can make the choice for the original poster.

For me personally I was looking for something that will still give me excellent performance and cater for my future needs which included computer control. I'm probably only going to be a casual observer, and may not get the scope out every clear night, or spend hours at the eyepiece until sunrise. Conversely, I might get really hooked and didn't want to get something that I later found had limitations and I then was in a position where I needed to sell it to raise funds towards something that overcame these short comings, and thus loose 25% of the value. For me I had saved up £1000, and for this I was looking at a decent aperture, goto mount and at a push portable should I want to take it in the back of the car (Volvo V70 so have stacks of room). Maybe it was destiny, but the first choice was out of stock everywhere, so I've ended up ordering a 200P on a EQ-5 pro goto mount, which with some accessories has came in at just over the £1000 budget. - This suits me, but others would (and have ) already suggested that I should of gone for better mounts, or the PDS version of the OTA... it is never ending as is the amount of cash you can end up throwing at this hobby. But for me, my circumstances as they are at this moment I feel I've made the right purchase.

The point about the second hand market is a good one, and if the opportunity presents itself a decent saving on the retail price can be had. To some people the option to buy something cheap now and then replace that with something "better" later as they get more into the hobby is the best path to take as it suits their own circumstances at the time...

One of the comments about only getting decent results from equipment costing thousands of pounds I feel is out of context given the standards of modern equipment. It would of been true twenty years ago, when you either owned a 3" Tasco reflector or rub shoulders with the big boys and their C8's or Vixen 102 refractors, and to go computerised required dedicated hardware and deep pockets. These days the quality of mirrors are far better and computer controlled scopes start from around £300. And by some of the images seen on the forum, even the humble 150P can produce some stunning images.

Looking back at the OP first post in this thread, he (and his family) want to look at planets, and have a budget of £300. Personally as my youngest is also 9 and has an interest in the planets (yes they've done that at school last term) I would suggest a goto scope, as this will a) provide a novelty factor for the kids as they can press a button and have the scope find something and once the scope has found the object will help them get to know where in the sky these things are so help with learning the sky. For £57 more than your budget the Skymax 127 goto ( http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skymax-127-synscan-az-goto-telescope_d3193.html) IMO would suit the bill based on what you have said are your requirements in your 1st post. As you are unsure as to the flash in the pan interest this may be, I would suggest you keep the packing in good condition which would help with the resell value should you choose to sell up and recover some of your money.

[pvaz]

I'd never have been inspired to continue with astronomy had I started with binoculars. I'd have given up, disappointed. The use of binoculars is one of those things that sounds wise with the benefit of hindsight, but it's easy to forget that the journey is an emotional, as well as practical one, and one's relationship with the equipment is an important part of that.

Got to agree with this one. Binos are nice to have but they fail to impress. I take mine while travelling but if I could manage the 8" scope then the binos wouldn't see much use.

[umadog]

Welcome. I'd say you should certainly at least go look through a telescope and see whether it grabs you. You could buy second hand if you're unsure; that way you'd get back all or most of your money should you have to sell.

[Astro_Baby]

Take a look at the small Orion starblast scopes in my pics crom astrofest, they are small, relatively cheap, hey as i said before if your other half wants a telescope then why is that a problem. If she gets it and hates well it can always be sold on. It not like youe betting the farm here on£300 or less.

[KenG]

Hi Peter, in your post you asked what makes the hobby interesting.

Whilst a telescope will undoubtably give you decent views of the planets, clusters and some nebulae, stars are going to remain as points of light no matter what you look through, so what makes looking at them absorbing is knowing a bit about what you're looking at. For children this will be very important, for after viewing the obvious targets a couple of times, the novelty will quickly fade. I mentioned on another thread that before I use my scope I will have researched the bit of sky I'm going to look at, not necessarily in great depth, but at least I'll have an idea about what's in the eyepiece, and if anyone stops and asks for a look I can tell them what sort of stars they're seeing and how far away they are.

To this end, I use the explaination of scale from Burnham's Celestial Handbook. If the radius of our solar system were 3.5 feet, then one light year equals one mile. For your children, take a length of string and a bit of chalk and scribe a circle of that radius on the ground, then shorten the string and scribe another one of radius one inch - that's the Earth's orbit, the centre point is the sun of course. Now look up at the sky - when it's dark that is! - and find the Pleiades (the Seven Sisters), they're easy to spot. On the scale we've just used, they're 410 miles away. That's pretty breath-taking, especially when you measure out 410 miles on a local map and compare it to your 2" chalk circle, so when you go back to the eyepiece, the next view through the scope takes on a different meaning. With a bit of imagination, this can be made into a great game, and then there's individual stars to investigate. Peas are about 1/4" dia., they make a good Earth, so blow up a balloon until it's 21" across and you've got the sun for comparison. Buy a giant balloon on the net, the ones that inflate to 72", and start puffing, and when you've got your breath back, ask your eldest for a tennis ball. Now the tennis ball's the sun and your balloon is Betelgeuse, when it's at it's minimum size that is, for it's a variable and inflates to a third bigger again at regular intervals.

For your children it's no longer points of light that all look the same, they have meaning and scale. I could go on giving you examples like this, but you've probably got the message - bring it to life. Astronomy depends equally on knowledge and imagination. A few books, something to look through, and the universe is yours.

When I re-read this I realised I'd left off a zero after 41, so it's now corrected.

[G2EWS]

Hi Peter, in your post you asked what makes the hobby interesting.

Whilst a telescope will undoubtably give you decent views of the planets, clusters and some nebulae, stars are going to remain as points of light no matter what you look through, so what makes looking at them absorbing is knowing a bit about what you're looking at. For children this will be very important, for after viewing the obvious targets a couple of times, the novelty will quickly fade. I mentioned on another thread that before I use my scope I will have researched the bit of sky I'm going to look at, not necessarily in great depth, but at least I'll have an idea about what's in the eyepiece, and if anyone stops and asks for a look I can tell them what sort of stars they're seeing and how far away they are.

To this end, I use the explaination of scale from Burnham's Celestial Handbook. If the radius of our solar system were 3.5 feet, then one light year equals one mile. For your children, take a length of string and a bit of chalk and scribe a circle of that radius on the ground, then shorten the string and scribe another one of radius one inch - that's the Earth's orbit, the centre point is the sun of course. Now look up at the sky - when it's dark that is! - and find the Pleiades (the Seven Sisters), they're easy to spot. On the scale we've just used, they're 41 miles away. That's pretty breath-taking, especially when you measure out 41 miles on a local map and compare it to your 1" chalk circle, so when you go back to the eyepiece, the next view through the scope takes on a different meaning. With a bit of imagination, this can be made into a great game, and then there's individual stars to investigate. Peas are about 1/4" dia., they make a good Earth, so blow up a balloon until it's 21" across and you've got the sun for comparison. Buy a giant balloon on the net, the ones that inflate to 72", and start puffing, and when you've got your breath back, ask your eldest for a tennis ball. Now the tennis ball's the sun and your balloon is Betelgeuse, when it's at it's minimum size that is, for it's a variable and inflates to a third bigger again at regular intervals.

For your children it's no longer points of light that all look the same, they have meaning and scale. I could go on giving you examples like this, but you've probably got the message - bring it to life. Astronomy depends equally on knowledge and imagination. A few books, something to look through, and the universe is yours.

Ken,

Fantastic explanation that I will use on my Children and Grand Children.

Regards

Chris

[KenG]

Thanks Chris.

I'm going to add to the above post. Here's the one that leaves everybody speechless. Find somewhere that provides a view of the surrounding countryside, go there and on your local map draw a circle representing 4.3 miles with yourself at the centre. There's going to be a feature, radio mast, hill, something you can see from where you're standing that approximates to that distance. That feature, with our 2" Earth orbit, is our nearest companion in space, Proxima Centauri. Go back and fetch the family, give them a choice of several visible landmarks, including our 4.3 ml. one, and ask them how far they think it is to the nearest star. No-one's going to imagine it's as far away as that, and the realisation that the two tiny points of light that are our Sun and Proxima are seperated by that distance, is sobering to say the least.

In fact, take a pencil torch with you, turn it on and stick it into the ground pointing upwards. It doesn't matter that it's the middle of the day. I know that to scale the Sun would be much smaller than the small circle of light at everybody's feet, but imagining another pencil torch 4.3 miles away helps everyone to grasp just how far away the stars are.

[great_bear]

before I use my scope I will have researched the bit of sky I'm going to look at, not necessarily in great depth.

This is excellent advice - although I kind of do it in reverse.

I scan the sky with binoculars looking for areas of interest. As well as observing them I make a note of them (albeit only mentally). When I get back inside I look up these areas of interest to find out about them.

When I next go outside on another day, I start by revisiting - with my telescope - the areas that I've looked up, with consideration of the knowledge that I researched. Once I've ended such observing (and sometimes it doesn't end - it can last all night) I can then finish off by doing more exploring with binoculars for areas to research for next time around.

Before I learnt this variation of your technique, I kind-of got stuck, and didn't know how to spend my time. I guess this can be a common problem, because it's not unusual to see a forum question along the lines of "What do I look at next?"

[AttackFerret]

That's exactly what I do too. It's also a good idea to scan the sky with a program like Stellarium first before you go out, but this is nothing near as fun (even if it is a ton more practical).

[ozwebuk]

Some great advice here, definitely try a local society but if you want to just try it out then try buying the book "turn left at orion" or similar and get some 10x50 or similar bino's. I picked omse reasonable ones up from Tesco direct. You'll be able to do some simple star gazing and if you are interested in seeing more you can carry on.