Reflector, refractor...or Maksutov for DSO? Attempted future-proofing with mount too!

[astroimpulse]

Hi guys,

I've only just bought a 150PL and EQ3-2 combo and I don't think the mount is good for a scope that long.

So it's got me thinking about starting again and I have my eye on the HEQ5. I'm also likely to get a goto as I'll likely benefit from the easier spotting although I appreciate they're not the best for hardcore astronomy learning. So the HEQ5 Synscan.

I'm attempting future-proofing (I know ) so I believe this mount will handle anything thrown at it within reason.

I'm going to have to try my hand at imaging as some of those here are totally inspiring. So I will likely follow the guiding route eventually too. So that needs to be factored in with what scope to go for on the HEQ5 bearing in mind there will be a guiding scope at some point.

I believe it's a good choice but please chime in with thoughts.

Now, I like the 150PL and I'd give it a chance if it wasn't for the fact I'm collecting funds specifically to hit the ground running. So I may keep it for a while but say I didn't; what's the best type of scope for DSOs?

One thing I found with my very short time on the 150PL reflector is the eyepiece position is a pain when the scope rotates. I was loosening the whole thing to rotate it back to a comfortable position. I'd have thought that would wreck tracking on a goto (I appreciate if a camera is on the position is not a problem so much) but if I'm wrong then I'm happy to stay with reflectors. But Maksutovs look far more manageable as do refractors. I'd rather be comfortable whilst viewing.

However, image is more important. I'm looking to be super wowed. Jupiter wowed me on my 150PL and I guess a 6mmish would have made it bigger but as I was already on 240x (10mm on 2 x Barlow) I'd prefer to get as much detail and quality before magnification.

Obviously bigger diameter but I love the idea of some of the other types. Even a maksutov newt!

I reckon £1000 would be my supermax and it HAS TO BE my kit for the next few years. Looking at prices I may buy the mount new (I like new) but i may also go secondhand as I'm well versed in that side of life.

So breaking this long post down:

1: Is the HEQ5 a solid, strong mount I won't outgrow for a long time?

2: What type of scope is the best for DSOs?

Thanks for ready

[astroimpulse]

Scary! Just been searching this forum looking for discussions and a few are saying even the HEQ6 Pro has trouble with the bigger scopes!!! £880 for that! And the 300P newt is impressive looking. But the 6 would struggle with it and a tracker

The current scope may or may not be upgraded but I want a mount that will stay with me for a long time so even though blowing my budget on the 6 may not be a problem...the fact it will struggle on a 300 is disheartening.

Maybe a lighter different type of scope is the answer for the future.

[astroimpulse]

* By tracker or tracked I meant guided

[Stardust]

I've got a standard HEQ5 but do like the Pro. Mak-newts are lovely scopes, some of my best views were through my Intes MN68, but it was really heavy and could only do visual and not in any kind of breeze. Settled now on a MN56, small scope that packs quite a punch. Can't beat a big dob for deepsky though.

I've got an Orion OMC140 for sale but deep sky is not its forte, high power lunar/planet is where it's at home.

[astroimpulse]

Yeh those Mak-newts look like the best of both worlds. But they're very expensive.

I'm going through the DSO image forum here and most images so far seem to come from refractors or maks.

Looking at the incredible showcase threads I saw MartinB's Rosetta and went to see how he got that. The scope alone is thousands! lol SteveL has a beautiful horsehead pic on what looks like a mak-newt. Of course, I'm going of their kit in signatures. Gonna keep going through that thread.

DOBS are great including bang for buck but I'm looking for the best type to go on an EQ mount.

I could even blow my budget on a HEQ6 Pro and wait a little for a scope upgrade but reading a 300 newt struggles on it is disheartening. But if anyone gives a good enough argument for Maks then I'll check them out for sure. Technically they seem fantastic but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and you guys are the best to ask

[Yoddha]

In my belief there are two paths in this quest

The first is the get the best mount that you can afford and then find an imaging kit that can be comfortably handled by it. As you know it is not good idea to be very close to mount's limit. The bigger mount you get more options you will have...

The other way is to find the OTA you like most. Then calculate the it's weight and the weight of the rings, rail, guide scope, camera, reducer and ... And then find a mount that can carry this kit in stable way.

IMHO the GOTO is a must when you plan to image. I know few gurus that can find their DSOs without problem, but definitely GOTO saves time

Newtons and SCT are very popular solutions, but first may needs good comma corrector, the second needs a focal reducer. Definitely Mak-Newts are good but are heavy, refractors are great but expensive...

What I'm trying to say is that in this equation there are lot of variables (and the most important for many of us is there price ), so fixing several of them will make easier the finding of your solution.

In my case, first was decided that I want refractor and luckily found a good offer on the second hand market. Then picked up a mount, maybe not the best one - LXD-75 but serves me well So for a year I'm happy and don't think for upgrades in the next few years (especially with the limited time that I can spend under the stars )

I know that don't tell anything new, but hope that other's opinion can be in help

[astroimpulse]

It does tell me something new so thanks

SCTs (Schmidt Cassegrain Telescope) are the same as Maks (Maksutov-Cassegrain)? I'm getting used to acronyms but the Cassegrain differences are slightly overwhelming when trying to choose.

Smaller is normally Maksutov and larger is normally Schmidt...I think? (sourcing here atm)

Anywho...you're mount theory is obviously spot on and I decided yesterday to 100% spend big on the NEQ6 pro as I see that seeing me good for a few years to come. FLO know I'm coming for it too

So an OTA is the only thing to pick. And it's a tough one.

I want to do planetary AND DSOs (don't we all) and the newt is kind of a do it all I'm hearing.

But as DSOs are something I will need more kit to truly capture (long exposure photography - guiding etc) I need to think of the now. So something to delve into planets but in great detail with good scale is what I'm after.

I also fancy a more comfortable scope as the newt may be more awkward for me over a long session. But Maks/SCTs/Refractors seem to have a more pleasant viewing position.

I love the look of the large diameter Maks (Skymax 180 ) but if I was told a reflector was my only way then I would except that.

i need to be wowed by good sized planets and the ability to see deeper. I'm spending what i consider a massive amount of cash.

I'm confused a little lol

So (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Maks: Huge focal range but smaller FOV (would a large primary solve FOV or is it just more light) - good for planets and the smaller DCOs

Reflectors: Good focal range and good FOV - decent results for both

Refractors: Not sure on their forté yet

[Whippy]

SCTs (Schmidt Cassegrain Telescope) are the same as Maks (Maksutov-Cassegrain)? I'm getting used to acronyms but the Cassegrain differences are slightly overwhelming when trying to choose.

Smaller is normally Maksutov and larger is normally Schmidt...I think? (sourcing here atm)

So an OTA is the only thing to pick. And it's a tough one.

I want to do planetary AND DSOs (don't we all) and the newt is kind of a do it all I'm hearing.

But as DSOs are something I will need more kit to truly capture (long exposure photography - guiding etc) I need to think of the now. So something to delve into planets but in great detail with good scale is what I'm after.

I also fancy a more comfortable scope as the newt may be more awkward for me over a long session. But Maks/SCTs/Refractors seem to have a more pleasant viewing position.

I love the look of the large diameter Maks (Skymax 180 ) but if I was told a reflector was my only way then I would except that.

i need to be wowed by good sized planets and the ability to see deeper. I'm spending what i consider a massive amount of cash.

I'm confused a little lol

So (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Maks: Huge focal range but smaller FOV (would a large primary solve FOV or is it just more light) - good for planets and the smaller DCOs

Reflectors: Good focal range and good FOV - decent results for both

Refractors: Not sure on their forté yet

SCT's and Mak-Casses are similar but not quite the same, it's mostly optic related but by and large given the same aperture and focal length, I would imagine there's not a huge amount of difference between the two. Not that I've tried personally!

Every scope design is a compromise of some sort, there's not one scope to rule them all . Every scope can do 'everything' to an extent but some naturally are better at some things than others.

For example, IMO refractors are the easiest to use for DSO imaging and give the most pleasing view for observing. Problem is, inch for inch, they're by far and away the most expensive scope design especially when we're talking APO's. Mak-Casses are great at lunar and planetary work but no good at widefield observing and DSO imaging without a suitable reducer. Mak-Newts and Newts (with a suitable corrector for imaging) are probably the best all-rounder and certainly cheaper than refractors but they're big and heavy (especially the Mak-Newts) so will need a big mount and you will probably have modify it in some way to bring a camera to focus (The SW 190 MN being the obvious exception).

End of the day, you might well want to start doing one thing and buy a scope more suited to that purpose and look at something else as your interests change.

Tony..

[Yoddha]

I'm happy to be in help!

IMHO Maksutov-Cassegrain are superior than Schmidt Cassegrain as image quality. The newer SCTs like Meade's ACF and Celestron's HD are good alternative but they are still pricey. The great disadvantage of Maks as general purpose scope is that they are very slow and this makes them suitable mainly for planets. DSOs require faster scope in order to reduce the exposure time because of the noise that you get.

Mak-Newts (again IMHO) are most close to the definition of general purpose scope. They can give wide range of targets - bigger DSOs (with DSLR), smaller DSOs and planets (with good Barlow or Powermate). The model that I have in mind is the 190mm one. There are a lot of outstanding images taken with this scope posted here. It definitely gives the near refractor possibilities at good price. The downside is the weight This was my dream OTA until I realized the real scale of the final setup - it requires EQ6... I have to travel around 30km for every session so this was the end of the dream... until there is permanent observing site...

As for the reflectors, there are several things to consider. First you have to correct the field, then have to calculate which one will be suitable for your imaging device - if you use DSLR there is need to cover lager field, which means bigger secondary and bigger obstruction. BTW if you are not fan of spikes you will need to learn to live with them...

Refractors are other beer they are good but everything above 110-120mm is very expensive. If you choose this route you will be limited by the aperture...

[astroimpulse]

Thanks Tony

Every scope design is a compromise of some sort, there's not one scope to rule them all . Every scope can do 'everything' to an extent but some naturally are better at some things than others.

Yeh, this is basically my dilema and something I learned quickly. Finding that which is going to give me the most pleasure all round but be expert at what I want in the long run is maybe a bridge too far and I can see why many here have at least two scopes

Mak-Casses are great at lunar and planetary work but no good at widefield observing and DSO imaging without a suitable reducer.

Tony..

I'll look into reducers then as if they're an upgrade for the future then it might be the way to go if they result in good DSO observing.

If the refractors are more expensive it's not the thing to turn me away if they do better. If they can do DSO but also cracking planetary views (bigger the better for me) then I will push the boat out further.

You guys are being very patient with me

[astroimpulse]

Thanks Ivo. i didn't see your post when I posted above

I'm discounting the awesome SW mak/newt and APO refractors for now as they're future dream scopes. EDs look like a good middle ground but still a lot. If I didn't need a mount I'd go that way but my budget has been eaten up a lot by the NEQ6 PRO this time. But this is a good future-proof mount.

I've just watched a very good (for me) series of scope related youtube vids and I'm a lot clearer on where I'm going to go.

Refractors and Maks around the 150 size are very similar in price. But i do like the looks of the 180 Mak even though it's slow. Also the 250-300 newt but I'm gearing towards a mak for comfort ability too.

I'm going to do some homework on the reducer route mentioned and see what that gets me.

Let's face it...I'll end up with two types like most lol

What I get will be the only scope I get for a long time though and I'll be spending my time on EPs, filters, learning the skies and learning the techniques.

I would have kept the 150P to learn on but circumstances allowed me to upgrade.

[Yoddha]

Maks are good and combined with a reducer can be great imaging scope. Even without reducer is possible to image DSOs a lot of patient and care will be needed. 180mm is aperture that gives a lot of possibilities!

BTW my first digital images were made with Meade ETX105 and sometimes I regret that sold it...

[simon84]

Just to add my bit I'm using the NEQ6 pro which is a very capable mount indeed. My scope of choice is the Equinox 120ED Apo, but I started out with the Equinox 80ED Apo which was still a very capable scope and with a dslr gave really nice widefield views of the larger DSO targets.

If you want a imaging setup that will get you going dont discount the small aperture apo's, the Evostar 80ED can be had for very sensible money, and if your guiding is good the small aperture dosnt even come into play because your exposure times will compensate for this.

An 80ED Apo with an 80mm achro for guiding or even a finder guider would be nowhere near the weight limit of the NEQ6. Its a short focal length so much easier to guide with and an ideal setup to learn the craft with. Its not a bad performer visually but obviously you will be limited with the 80mm.

[brantuk]

I have to say - If you're looking to "future proof" your purchase, scopes these days are very much like cars and computers. Allways something bigger, better or more desireable within 12 months of buying.

Best thing is to decide on your objectives and get the scope that best matches those. Keep it cheaper by buying from the "used" market and you can swop and change to your hearts content as your objectives change.

[astroimpulse]

Thanks guys, all of you

BranUK...tell me about it lol I recently built an i7 system which was the most powerful home PC....for a month lol I'm used to the PC thing (only ever self built) but what I was really meaning by future-proofing this purchase was something which would see me personally through the next few years. So future tech advances isn't really to much of an issue in this case.

I do expect to be buying and upgrading over the next few months/years so a good foundation scope is the key (extra scope, guiding, EPs etc).

I'm seriously considering a Mak now as on top of the possibilities I like the viewing position too. Also, reflectors worry me with their open end around here as it's often windy and I worry about things going down the tube. I'm probably being totally paranoid though But to contradict myself again...I like the look of the 250P lol

I reckon if I get a decent Mak I can always get a decent Reflector after Xmas if I want to push a different way. As I'd have the mount OTAs seem reasonable in price.

I have a lot to learn anyway so I may not go too deep for a while meaning by then I could buy a second scope.

The vids I watched last night really allowed a lot to sink in. I even get the basics of APO! lol

As for secondhand...yep, I'll be scouring the net for OTAs in case a bargain appears as the mount will be new and costs a lot. But if I end up buying new then that's ok.

I have my eye on the SW Skymax 150 or 180 Pro. They look very decent quality and even (reportedly) have APO quality. But if I can push the boat out to afford them (if) I could get a lot of types secondhand for the same cost.

This is all your faults anyway . The image section in this forum is mind blowing and completely inspirational. Even those who prefix "I know it's not very good" are posting some awesome images.

[Whippy]

I have my eye on the SW Skymax 150 or 180 Pro. They look very decent quality and even (reportedly) have APO quality. But if I can push the boat out to afford them (if) I could get a lot of types secondhand for the same cost.

Just to confuse you even more, there's two basic types of Mak-Cass. The Gregorian version has the secondary mirror 'silvered' onto the corrector plate. The Skymaxes and Orion Optics' OMC 140 have this. There's also the Rumak version which has the secondary mirror as a seperate unit that's attached to the corrector plate, these can offer slightly better views and the potential for better optics. Google 'Intes Micro' and have a look. They're more expensive to buy but IMO, they're better than the Skymaxes.

Tony..

[astroimpulse]

lol Thanks for that Tony!

I'm off outside now as my head is going to explode and I don't want to make a mess of the house! lol

BTW...the SW ED120 seems to be a popular choice here.

[Whippy]

BTW...the SW ED120 seems to be a popular choice here.

Because it's a decent scope . I've used mine a few times for observing and I've found it's especially nice for the Moon while it's no slouch for imaging either.

Tony..

[brantuk]

Well Sy - I know what you mean - I spent around three grand on a self spec'd and home built computer way back when - it was the d's b's for about 6 months when the hardware dropped to half price and the better stuff was now available lol

I started astronomy with a 150P on EQ3-2. It was great for a year before aperture fever set in and the thirst for technology became unquenchable. Thats how I ended up with the signature below lol. It's a fair spread of scopes that allow a variety of observing and photography - it's about the only way to stay in the game for say 5yrs or so.

Warning though - the compulsion to buy "bits" (ep's, filters, adaptors, etc) is hard to shake - buying another car is the only thing that stopped me in my tracks lol.

Decide what you want to do - set your budget - then stick to it as you buy your set up. I'm sure you'll look back at this thread in six months wondering what went wrong lol. At least you're doing the right thing researching.

Good luck chap.

[astroimpulse]

Hehe Thanks fella

I'm getting closer to the scope I'll buy but I've started to research with a different mindset now. I'm lowering my expectations and also preparing myself for a second scope in early 2011 so I shouldn't get disappointed if I buy the best I can for a certain field.

That's the theory anyway lol

As for bits buying...yeh, I'm a sucker for it. This is a great example as I was just looking at cheapo scopes a month ago and now I'm spending 1k+ lol

I guess it's a good thing wanting the best you can have and not settling for any old tat. But I can explain myself better with this story (don't laugh lol):

I saw Homer Simpson with a little RC heli in an episode (the £15 type) and told my girl "I want one for xmas". I looked into them and kept thinking "for just £50 I could get...but then for just £20 extra on top I could get...." and so on. We've all been there

I ended up with £600 worth of decent, small proper rc heli. I then got really into it and all of it's technicalities...and started a forum (when I got a bigger heli) and it grew to a very decent size. These things cost upwards of 1k just for the airframe. Then controllers cost 100s and there's all the bits and pieces after that. The similarities to this hobby are uncanny. Apart from your investment isn't seconds away from crashing into a million pieces!

I then decided because the forum was doing well it would be a good move to open an online store and the business grew and turnover was great! But the recession and thieves saw an end to it all.

But basically I went from wanting a small cheap heli to owning a decent sized RC heli store in just 4-3 years. No regrets though

That is extreme (although probably how most start in business) but it's certainly not going to happen to that extent this time. I have well and truly learned the ways of controlling my impulses. But when I joined here I had an idea what it would lead to hence the name. So maybe not learned well enough! lol

Although to be fair...it's not new money I'm spending. It's selling off PC gear at the moment (i can live with just the one). A little new money will help bump things up though

Here's the missus when I told her I was going to jump up to some decent kit instead -> haha

[astroimpulse]

Jeez...sorry for that novel of a post!

[brantuk]

Lol - well you're a chap after my own heart - I too have been the R/C route - one cessna, an extra 230, an ultra bi-wing, two buddy boxes, a heli, and something with a big dihedral for the missus later, and the recession got me too. Fortunately I didn't get into shops and forums - thank goodness!! lol

Now it's not only scopes, but caravans and towcars too - all before you pay for the pitch at a star party (the cheapest bit). And then I have to hold myself back from the trade stands lol

[astroimpulse]

Oh no! I can see it now...a caravan on the back of my motor!!! haha

[Astro_Baby]

YOu seem a bit hung up on the 300 newt. I dont do imaging but almost any mount is going to struggle with a 12" newt - the scope is pretty big as well so unless you have a fixed location you may find its unmanageable.

I dont know if anyonbe has suggested it in this thread but if imaging is really what you want to do then you should for sure get a copy of 'Making Every Photon Count' which may tune you in to some of the issues.

I know I'll get lynched for this but I'd incline to advise people not to get their hopes up with imaging - just handling the basics can be a tough enough learning curve and astro-imaging seems to have a great capabilty for putting people off the hobby or at least filling them with disappointment.

Just observing in style can run up a big enough deficit on the bank balance let alone imaging.

By the way I have a prototype Maksutov Rumak in 150mm which, if I ever get time and the clouds go away, I intend to run off against a 180 Skymax and see which one I prefer.

The big perisher I find with Maks is they take so long to cool down and their very narrow field of view (speed doenst worry me because I dont image).

As has been said on here any scope is a compromise and thats why I have so many

The temptation I am trying to avoid at the moment is to flog the lot in favour of a mental sized refractor with lots of brass, wood and some very silly (in the price department) eyepieces and just going back to planetary observing anf leave the faint fuzzies alone.

Fact is whatever you buy (unless its Hubble or the Hale 200" at Palomar) you will end up wishing you had bought something else. It were ever so

[Dangerous-Dave]

EQ5 or over should be fine for the 150PL. If you want to future proof yourself, get the EQ6. Don't expect a huge increase in quality between the 150PL and Skymax range. Both are planetary scopes by the way, if you want to observe deep sky, aim for an f5 reflector. To image deep sky, go down the apo refractor route. HTH