Takahashi mount - so far, terrible.

[ollypenrice]

Hi All,

Well, the consensus on the net is that the Tak mounts are short on features (very true) but big on accuracy and work straight from the the off. I can only say that so far ours is not working and I am very disappointed. We will either get it working or send it back in the near future.

There are several annoyances, the first being that it comes supplied with a serial port for laptop connection. Hallo, Takahashi, hallo? This is 2010. Laptops don't have serial ports any more - or none of our three does - so in goes third party software and a potential for malfunction.

Our mount is prone suddenly to start slewing during a guide run and carry on till switched off. It has done this a few times. Last night it went one better; when switched off then on again it refused to respond to the hand paddle. No movement when buttons pressed. I put the paddle down for a quick cry and suddenly it started slewing on its own. I had to turn it off. From then on it started a spontaneous and unstoppable slew whenever it was switched on. This morning it seems not to be doing that.

This is a real shame because on the rare occasions when it behaves properly it is incredibly accurate, way ahead of the EQ sixes, just as it should be. However, it is bizzarely sensitive to wind or to being touched for filter changes. That doesn't seem right to me. The EQ sixes aren't like that.

One rather odd thing that I remember though; when I first set it up I was disturbed by the amount of free play in the dec axis with the clutch locked up. More than you'd want, I felt. Over the next few sessions of moving it around and sorting things out this play disappeared but it leaves me suspicious that something is amiss within.

Could the handset be the problem, generating signals on its own?

Of course, if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them...

Olly

[roundycat]

Olly, have you posted this on the Tak Yahoo group? It certainly sounds odd and the bit about serial is unbelievable in this day and age.

Dennis

[NickH]

Sorry to hear that Olly. Knowing the headaches we went through with the Titan in Spain, I know what it's like to think "why of why can't someone just make a bigger EQ6...they just work!"

Got my heart set on an AP mount... and nothing will change that

[ollypenrice]

Yes, though poor guiding has been seen here on an AP as well, unfortunately...

I cannot get the mount to misbehave this morning, apart from the familiar stupidity of having to use a particularUSB port to let the computer talk to the mount. At least I hve learned how to solve that and have the USB labelled accordingly. I have been asking around and it may all come from the handset so at least I have somethingto go on.

Thanks for the moral support!

Olly

[adamsp123]

I really hope you get it sorted soon without much more fuss, it is so disappointing that kit like that have design (serial port) and/or manufacturing flaws (the slew misbehaving).

I had a similar unwanted slews on my Atlux that turned out to be a design flaw where the control circuit card in the mount was such that condensation puddled on the horizontally mounted card causing shorts, a simple coating or cover would have done the job.

[davew]

Hi Olly,

From what you've said so far it sounds like a. hand box duff b. damaged pin in the conector or c. mother board ( we won't go there right now )

More info required from you. Does the mount wild slew when the computer is connected or just the control box ? Does it slew when the control box is not connected ? ( Just between you and me, the mount works ok without the box ) When you guide are you using NS and not HS on the box ? If it slews in NS it should only be at the set guide rate not a fast slew. I can't see you forgetting and using HS !

I'm trying to isolate the problem so check the pins very carefully.

Now I'm not going to try and defend Takahashi but the lack of features suits me just fine probably because I'm lacking in features. It has all I need using Chuck Faranda's Ascom plugin. 5.5.17 by the way.

Serial ?? Don't know but a " Prolific " adaptor works for me.

The Dec clamp I don't know either. Mine clamps up ok with thumb pressure but if I wrap my legs round the mount and pull the scope ( I know this because I've just tried it ), it does move a bit.

Are you using the wooden or metal tripod ? If it's the metal one like mine, you may need to re tighten the central bolt once or twice after a good jiggle of the head.

I take it you've found out how to offset the mount. Did the polar utility I sent arrive ?

If you reply I may have some other things to try. Don't get your hopes up.

Dave.

[TakMan]

Sorry to hear of your woes Olly....

I was advised early on, that if the mount misbehaved to make sure all the connections were secure - especially the handset - both ends.

As for USB to serial, I use a Keyspan device on my Mac (we didn't have such things as serial ports/floppy drives (bless!) for even longer than you PC based chappies!): USA-19HS

USB Adapters & Device Servers

Good tip from Dave above about making sure you set NS on the handset - that's caught me out a few times when the motors purr into life, just after I've framed the shot!!!!!

Hope that's of some help...?

Regards

Damian

[brianb]

Hallo, Takahashi, hallo? This is 2010. Laptops don't have serial ports any more

That's a fault of the laptop, not the mount. Blame the Microsoft/Intel cartel that foisted USB on us ... you have to pay for a licence to make USB peripherals, the drivers are flaky, the performance is poor compared with Firewire, USB ports load up the CPU and the connectors are unreliable.

RS232 serial ports are just fine for low speed signalling / control purposes. The connectors are reliable (unlike USB), drivers are open source (patents etc. having long expired), you don't have to pay licence fees to Intel/Microsoft to install RS232 serial ports on your device ... serial controllers work on interrupts rather than polling, making them much more efficient than USB, and the things just WORK.

Now I'm not going to try and defend Takahashi but the lack of features suits me just fine

What is a mount supposed to do apart from seek in dec & RA and rotate around the RA axis once every 23h 56m 4s ?

I'm sorry to hear you're having problems with your Tak mount. If you want to stop fighting it, I'll swap it for my functional 2 yr old HEQ5 ... which also doesn't have a USB port.

[ollypenrice]

Cheers all, I will try to answer those questions next clear night but we are having thunderstorms at the moment. Dave, many thanks, I will just try without the physical handset. I do take care not to confuse the two speeds but I wonder if the handset doesn't always change on the inside when you throw the switch on the outside, so to speak. In effect, Dave, I'm on a tripod since I made a pier to bolt to Tak's tripod base. The play I was talking about in Dec was certainly on the dec axis only and, as I said, simply disppeared after a day or two. The whole things feels absolutely perfect on both axes now, smooth but without play.

Brian, features that would be nice; 1) fast slewing without paying an extra 1000 euros. 2) Choice of more than 2 speeds for centering the mount on a target. Siderreal is too slow and the fast slew is too fast and unpredictable since it accellerates during a button press. Not important but at this price you want the luxuries available on an EQ6 at one fifth the price. 3) Real planetarium software instead of Primitive Pegasus which doesn't even have a database list of objects so you have to search the map for them, and since it leaps in great bounds from one place to another it is horrible. Yes, I can run it on SkyMap but you know the old addage, 'If it doesn't work, run it in its own software...' 4) A visible indication of which guide speed is operational. You scroll through some buttons to change it but have to remember how many presses you have given it. Bit of a joke I'd say. 5) A manual translated by a native English speaker. First law of translation, use a native speaker of the target laguage. Another good idea would be to use in the manual the terms as they appear on the computer screen, not a different translation of the same japanese term! And a final good idea for the manual would be to include all necessary instructions, not just most of them. More on autoguiding and less on manual guiding for film would suggest that someone at Takahashi was awake in 2010.

I really don't agree with you about Tak's decision to use Serial. They are making the mounts for people to use with computers and compters just don't have serial ports any more. Maybe they should but they don't and Takahashi need to respect that fact. We should have been using Betamax but we weren't.

To be honest I would far rather not control the mount from a PC and would greatly prefer a separate handset. So often with external devices they faff you around by suddenly deciding not to be recognized by the computer, needing to be unplugged and plugged in again etc. Rebooting the PC is a major pain when you have a powerfully cooled CCD running from it as well because there is a camera warm-up routine, followed by a re-cool to be gone through. Who needs it? Tak have introduced a computerized handset, for more than the price of an EQ6, and I won't be buying one.

Anyway, we'll see how it peforms with all the pointers above carefully noted. I'll keep posting. What a hassle because when it is good it is very good.

Olly

[davew]

Hi Olly,

That new Tak handset is as far as I can tell a third party affair with Art Ciampi ( or at least TNR ) at it's heart. The USA seems to be driving some of the new designs we see. Nothing wrong with that but it would be nice if Tak at least pretended they were in the 21st century.

If you have NS set the mount should not fast slew. End of. There must be a problem either in the handset or the main box if the command isn't getting through. Chuck's plugin does allow fast slews in goto even if the handset says NS. That is one of the reasons I mentioned the computer being connected. Also he doesn't recommend the flip control being used unattended ! The S1/2 buttons are a nightmare for me. Once again the plugin gives a graphical readout so you don't have to count presses.

When using the mount I tend to use 24V for visual and 12V for imaging. You then get the slightly slower centering slew. Or do you have the latest mount ? This gives fast slews with 12V.

As yet ( few years now ) I haven't had any problems requiring a reboot with SMPro. Just disconnect in software before a physical disconnect. Don't use Pegasus.

Is there any chance a Guest has played with the connections or dropped the handset ?

Did you get the mount from Optic Unterlanden ? Could they send you another handset ? It is after all a " Working " mount. People are paying good money for a mount that works.

Keep us informed.

Dave

[Erwin Kats]

@ olly. LOL at ''Hallo, Takahashi, hallo? This is 2010. ''

it sounds like asa is not so bad with the things they deliver in the box.

its all about em200 ( seen in youre signature)?

[ollypenrice]

Thanks again Dave. I don't think the handbox has been dropped and, anyway, the odd behaviour goes back to day one. It is certainly unmarked externally and I'm always around the mount. I haven't used it much with guests since it has not been on form. I still have the other mounts, fortunately.

I have carefully checked all cables, done as much testing as I can by day, and it seems absolutely fine. I may try going back to a 12 volt supply just to cover all bases if it won't behave tonight. (The sky seems to be clearing.)

I have discovered the need to switch off the software before disconnectiong but thanks for that. As for leaving it unattended, that is a very long way off as things stand! I do love SkyMap Pro though so getting that to work is a huge bonus.

Once I'm centered up I will try removing the handbox altogether and using the virtual ASCOM one.

We'll see...

[ollypenrice]

Hi Erwin, yes it's the EM200. Did your ASA come from Rob Lefeber, I wonder? I see he sells them now.

Olly

[SteveP]

Olly

Sorry to hear about your problems. Here are a couple of Yahoo groups which might provide some advice. You will probably have to register first

UncensoredTakGroup : Discussion group for Takahashi owners and fans

takahashi-europe : takahashi-europe

The first group is a very large group but comprises mainly Tak owners in the US. The Tak distributor for the US is very active on the group and usually very helpful. The 2nd group is as exactly what it says on the tin.

I'm not seeking to defend Takahashi or to suggest that their mounts are as fully-featured as other designs but I don't believe that they are unique in providing only a serial connection to a PC. Both of my mounts - the reliable and ubiquitous EQ6 Pro and the very accurate MI-250 - both only provide a serial connector. A serial-USB connector is an easy and cheap add-on though! It seems that only the most recent designs incorporate a USB connector

I hope you get the advice you need and the mount is up-and-running soon

Steve

[Erwin Kats]

Hi Erwin, yes it's the EM200. Did your ASA come from Rob Lefeber, I wonder? I see he sells them now.

Olly

Olly , yes ive ordered through Rob.

[ollypenrice]

Olly , yes ive ordered through Rob.

I thought so because he said he'd had mounts without discs.

Any trials of your mount yet?

Steve, thanks. I did know about the Uncensored group and have joined that.

Olly

[Marmite]

There's something very wrong here. Tak mounts "just work", and they work well.

If you can definitely discount user error and third-party application issues, then you have a defective mount, which amazes me because it takes a lot to damage a Tak mount!

In all my years in amateur astro I have never heard of a defective mount leaving the Takahashi workshop, so my guess is somebody has at some time been immensely unkind to your EM200.

[ollypenrice]

There's something very wrong here. Tak mounts "just work", and they work well.

If you can definitely discount user error and third-party application issues, then you have a defective mount, which amazes me because it takes a lot to damage a Tak mount!

In all my years in amateur astro I have never heard of a defective mount leaving the Takahashi workshop, so my guess is somebody has at some time been immensely unkind to your EM200.

Hi,

Nice to be on good terms. Your view is entirely that of almost everyone on the net, which is why I went for the mount. I can't discount user error though I'm doing my best and use this gear as my line of work. We are having an incredibly awful run of weather, which is impeding progress, but I live in hope.

I am highly suspicious of third party software (and hardware). As I said earlier, Tak have no business persisiting with serial cables since quite obviously everyone will now need to introduce third party kit to run the mount via USB and, with that, we introduce a huge zone for third party error. They need to get their backsides into gear here and stop being either conservative or nerdy. The world out there is the world out there.

I wonder if there is a conflict with Astro Art re guiding. Unguided the mount is very accurate, though nowhere near accurate enough for unguided use. I obviously didn't expect that.

It is a lovely bit of kit and when it starts doing what everyone else's EM200 does I will be the first to bang up plenty of good forum posts.

If it turns out to be my fault, that will head the posts!

Olly

[Erwin Kats]

I thought so because he said he'd had mounts without discs.

Any trials of your mount yet?

Steve, thanks. I did know about the Uncensored group and have joined that.

Olly

Hey Olly,

what do you mean with the discs ?, am i thinking to hard, or is it just easy...

see here for a simple 10 minute unguided result.

http://stargazerslounge.com/1456829-post22.html

[ollypenrice]

Hey Olly,

what do you mean with the discs ?, am i thinking to hard, or is it just easy...

see here for a simple 10 minute unguided result.

http://stargazerslounge.com/1456829-post22.html

I just meant software discs, nothing mysterious!

I have used the EM 200 on a couple more nights. On one it was brilliant. On the other it was guiding badly with sudden jumps till I unplugged the handbox then the jumping stopped and it gave me guiding values similar to those I get with the EQ sixes. (ie okay but not great at 5000 euros.)

Robtics are being very helpful.

Olly

[davew]

Hi Olly,

It's that bloke with the daft questions again

Now then, when you disconnected the handset, did you switch off the mount and restart without connecting the Ascom ( Feranda ) plugin or not check the guiding rates in the plugin ? What I'm after is, do you normaly use a low aggressiveness guide rate ( ie 0.5 etc ) ? As far as I know the mount goes back to 0.9 after a disconnect and you may have been over correcting if you didn't notice. Been there, done that.

Still no idea about the fix for this.

Your problem is my problem

Dave.

[ollypenrice]

You are so kind, Dave. No, I left he guide rate as standard. I guess I should have tried a lower guide speed but I was trying to get data for a guest on that mount and we had another setup on the go as well so I was preoccupied! I'll try lower guide speeds next time.

Olly.