dslr or ccd

[simon84]

I've been starting out imaging using my EOS 1000D camera which from what I've been reading really needs to be modified to get the best from it. This unfortunatley can never happen as my daughter uses the camera for college which leaves me at a crossroads.

Do I get another EOS 1000D and modify it or do I have a look at getting my first ccd camera and have a go with that?

Any advice would be great here, can I get a ccd camera for the same money as a dslr body? I suppose the 1000D would be between £250 to £300?

Can anyone recommend a ccd camera thats suitable to start imaging with, it dosnt have to be amazing, colour or mono is fine, but something that I can learn the ropes with and will allow me to get some half decent dso images.

Thanks.

[MartinB]

First of all Sly, you don't have to have your Canon modded. The chip lacks sensitivity in the red channel owing to the built in ir blocking fileter. This means that red hydrogen alpha lines found in emission nebulae won't be picked up very well. However you will have no problems with star clusters, reflection nebulae and galaxies. That leaves you with quite a bit to go at!

A modded DSLR is a cheaper option than the great majority of cooled CCDs and gives you a much bigger field because of the large chip. However, ultimately the performance of an uncooled cmos chip is going to struggle to match the performance of specialised cooled CCD astro cameras. The Atic 16ic is a relatively cheap intro to cooled ccd imaging. It has a small chip so will work best at short focal length.

[simon84]

Just had a look at the Atik site, is there anything maybe non-cooled thats still good to learn with that falls more around the £250 mark?

I'll be using it with my 80ED Apo.

[MartinB]

Yes, you can use a DMK camera. This is the mono but you could choose a one shot colour version. These are fantastic planetary and lunar imaging cameras but will also do long exposures for deep sky. They come complete with image capture software.

[adamsp123]

Hi Sly, I think you can get some very good results even in the Ha with the 1000D, I took an image of the coccoon nebula which is I believe rich in Ha and I got a perfectly reasonable result with my unmodded 1000D.

Modding has helped me but I wonder if the IR filter in this model is less agressive in reducing Ha than older models?

I think the bottom line is you can get perfectly nice images without modding the camera, more and longer subs with guiding, if you are not guiding yet I highly recommend you take that step first.

Pete

[simon84]

I've had a look at the cameras that Steve has available at FLO and I found this one which is right on target money wise, DFK21AU04.AS

It looks very similar to the mono.

I'm not guiding yet but it is something that I want to do. At the moment money is the major issue although an ST-80 with a modded webcam seems affordable if it is a reliable setup otherwise I'd prefer to wait and use an Equinox or WO66 with a QHY5.

The more I think about it the more I'd like to free up the Canon for my daughter and it logic says get a dedicated astro camera rather than mod a perfectly good dslr. I understand that I could get good results with it unmodded but if I go the CCD route then its something I wouldnt have to worry about.

[adamsp123]

Are you interested in DSO or lunar/planetary imaging because if it is the latter the DFK21 is just the job I believe, but for DSO it won't really cut it, DSLR or cooled CCD but not a webcam.

You definately do not need to get a good quality scope for guiding, many, myself included use a Finderscope for guiding, works very well and being very light is a good bonus.

Edit, I would have to bow to Martins greater knowledge and maybe the DMK will be ok with DSO but with limitations I would expect. The main thing is you have an excellent mount which is the most important item.

[Glider]

MartinB, the DMK camera you mention has exposures up to 30s mentioned in its blurb, do you know if longer exposures are possible or is 30s the limit?

[simon84]

DSO's are what I'd like to go after and I've just found the Atik 16ic on FLO for £379 which looks like a much better investment and only £79 more than I really wanted to spend so I'm rather tempted to go for one of those now.

Found some reviews online and it looks like an excellent choice for a first CCD camera.

I never thought of using a guide scope, is it a fairly straight forward mod to get the camera to fit onto it? Would certainly be alot cheaper than a small scope.

[adamsp123]

Here is a thread I started a while ago on finderguider and there a some excellent ideas from others in there -

http://stargazerslounge.com/diy-astronomer/84726-diy-finder-guider.html

PHD info

http://www.stark-labs.com/craig/articles/assets/AutoGuiding%20Craig%20Stark.pdf

[Beyond_Vision]

There is a new Hybrid camera from Atik which will be good for Planetary and Moon imaging and will also give you similar performance to the 16ic for DSO's and around the same cost.

Atik Cameras - Atik Titan dual purpose CCD camera

[MartinB]

The main limitations of using a web cam type camera are that they are noisy because there is no cooling, go get some amp glow and they are only 8 bit. So you will never get great quality. I started with a modded web cam (an Atik 2HS) and had a wonderful time learning the ropes. Here are some samples Atik 2HS images OK, so they are a bit rough but I had a lot of fun.

I didn't know the DMKs were limited to 30 secs, I think I've gone longer than that with mine. The great thing about a DMK is that you have a keeper as a planetary camera and it will let you play the deep sky imaging game. When funds are better it will also serve you well as a guide cam.

Think about the mono version though. You can use this with a small achromat. A green filter will remove the problems caused by chromatic aberration.

Kevin's suggestion makes sense if you have the funds.

[brantuk]

Why don't you get the 1000D mod'd and buy your daughter a new camera with the £250-£300 you have spare? Or does she need the 1000D specifically?

Alternatively, with your budget you could get a 350D second hand and have it mod'ed. Astronomiser may well have one ready mod'ed for sale on their website. Just a thought

[MartinB]

I've believe the maximum exposure on the DMK/DFK cameras is 60mins

[simon84]

Well after much thought and reading up I've decided that I'm going to save up the extra and either go for the Atik 16ic or the new Atik Titan, they both look like they will serve me a long time before ever needing to think about something else plus with the added ST4 port it will one day be a perfect guider with my NEQ6.

I did think about buying my daughter another camera but we are commited to Canon with the amount of lenses we have and she knows the camera so well it wouldn't be fair to her to change to a different model.

[simon84]

Just to add I've been playing around with the Atik 16ic/Equinox 80ED Apo combo in CCDCalc and it looks like an excellent pairing, the FOV is perfect for most objects with and without the use of x2 barlow.

Really cant wait to get it now.

[MartinB]

Sounds like a good move Sly, let us know how you get on

[simon84]

Thanks Martin, as soon as I get it, weather permitting of course, I'll be straight out there and will give a full report on how I get on with it.

[ollypenrice]

One of the best users of the 16ic is a really nice guy called John Punnett. He uses an ED80 as well. Have a look here;

Astrophotography by John Punnett

He came to my place a couple of years ago. I have two 16ics that I use for guiding, one mono and one colour. They have been dead reliable over the last three years. I would strongly recommend the mono though. For a slightly larger chip Atik do the 320E, a prototype of which I have down here. I am still waiting to give it a real go.

Olly

[simon84]

Thanks for the advice Olly, some excellent images there.

Can you tell me the advantages of mono over colour? Its something I havnt really considered as I was just going to go for a single shot colour to start out with.

Cheers,

Simon.

[simon84]

Ok so I've been googling the mono vs osc debate and now fully understand the advantages of mono over colour but unfortunatley for me and where I am located I would never be able to make the most of a mono ccd, its very rare I get a few nights suitable for imgaing on the trot so to make the most of my time I will be going for the osc camera and just try to get as much data as possible before processing.

I'd like to say thankyou to everyone who has given my some input on this as it was a scary decision to start with but now feel quite confident about my first step into the world of ccd imaging.

[ollypenrice]

Stop! One shot colour takes LONGER than mono. I have looked at this carefully and use both. Here's why;

In mono you can shoot luminance in bin 1, the maximum resolution, then shoot colour in Bin 2 (combining pixels for more light sensitivity at the cost of resolution). The resolution is restored by the luminance. In fact it is more than restored, it is better than you get with one shot colour, where the luminance is partly synthesized by the software. In bin 2 you need much less time.

OSC cameras are less sensitive to light anyway, for various reasons. They benefit greatly from longer exposures and this puts a greater demand on your guiding.

With mono you can use clear moonlit nights to shoot narrowband, most notably H alpha, which is a massive gain on emission nebulae. You combine this with your red data and, very gently, with your luminance as well if you like.

The truth is this; an astrophoto takes a long time to capture. There is no free lunch.

If you have a very dark site (I do) then OSC can comptete on many objects with mono but it will need more time.

I like my OSC camera because I am often runnning, or helping to run, two images at the same time and when one is a colour cam I can stop chasing around like a demented bee...

You may still feel that OSC is for you but I would just want to add what I have learned myself.

Olly

[simon84]

Thanks again for your input Olly, its greatly appreciated.

It seems then that a mono camera would be what I'm after as eventually I do want to get a H alpha filter to help with nebulae.

I dont think my wife is going to be too happy when I tell her I need a filter wheel and a set of lrgb filters aswell. The joys of imaging, but I'm sure there are a lot of targets which I can image in mono to start getting a feel for things.

So so much to learn.

[ollypenrice]

Try for second hand filters. I ugraded from basic ones to posh and sold the old ones with a camera. Others will be doing that as well. Also people upgrade to electric filter wheels and sell their old ones. (I find them a bit of a pain, the electric ones, but that's me. I get to hate anything that looks like a cable...)

Olly

[simon84]

I've had a look around and found a couple of wheels with lrgb filters for reasonable money.

I too would prefer a manual wheel, I'm one of those that likes to be out there.

Plus I will be able to carry on viewing once I've built the dob base for my Explorer 300P.

Cheers again.