Please help with imaging DSO's

[charmedkelly]

Hello everyone hope all is okay,

well finally my dream may come true this year?

i have finally sorted out my setup for imaging dso's, well i hope its jsut a beginners setup really then later on i will get a heavy duty mount? but anyway for the time being i have this

Skywatcher 150p EQ3 mount 6" scope

Single-Axis D.C. Motor Drive for EQ3-2

Canon 10d DSLR camera

and im also purchasing this too Baader Neodymium Filter

i hope this setup works okay,

also the other thing i need to know is will this setup work for dso's and will the camera settings need to be a particular way

if so i would really apprecate if anyone can help make my dream come true and help with the settings please

all the best

kelly

[dark knight]

Hi there Kelly and welcome to SGL, good choice of equipment to start with. As you have probably noticed imaging can be a very expensive pursuit, but it needn't be to start with.

It would be useful if you can provide the following info;

Is the mount motorised? Sorry just noticed you have a motor fitted:iamwithstupid:

Can you carry out good Polar Alignment?

Are you hoping to do Afocal, Prime or both, in other words how do you intend on attaching the camera to the telescope?

Tips

It is beneficial to have a remote shutter release for your camera. This avoids any camera shake induced by you having to touch the camera.

Camera will need to be set to Bulb function and ISO 800 (a good starting point) so you have full manual control of the camera settings.

Most DSO's require quite long exposures, so ensure the telescope mount is firmly set up, levelled and polar aligned. Astrobaby does some great tutorials for polar aligning. Astro-Baby Astronomy Website

Orion is nicely placed now and so M42 would be a good target to practice on, try 30 - 60 second exposures. Obviously if you are tracking manually this makes imaging more difficult.

You will need some software to stack/combine multiple images of the same DSO into a single picture. Deep Space Stacker seems the most popular software for this and is Free - DeepSkyStacker - Free

Above all don't get disheartened, just look at the thread on first DSO's to see some of the first attempts by members of the forum, some of these members have gone on to become very respected imager's. Patience is key, be prepared for some frustrating times but remember the end result makes up for it when that first DSO appears on your screen.

ASK as many questions as you can, the forum is full of very knowledgeable people who are only too willing to help, we all started somewhere, the only silly question is the one you don't ask...

Keep posting your results, no matter how poor you think they are, as this will allow members to better advise you.

Here's looking forward to seeing your images.

Carl

[charmedkelly]

hi yeah i think the remote shutter idea would be amazing how do i go about getting that sorted, also the motor is a xmas present im not too sure how to change my exposure on the canon 10d ( shud i get good results with this camera)

[jgs001]

Kelly, for the remote shutter release, search on ebay... they can be had much cheaper that way than the original canon items. I have an ebay timer remote and it's great. The 10d ought to work well, but you're almost certain to need to take some darks with it (same exposure as your images, so if you take 1 minute images, put the dust cover on the scope and take at least 11 frames of 1 minute also). Work hard to make sure you've got good focus, really take your time on this bit... It's worth setting up during the day and getting used to using the kit, focusing etc... It's much much easier during the day than it is at night.

[charmedkelly]

Hi John im absolutly useless at searching for things u cudnt point me inthe right direction for the shutter Remote. i would no what to look for and if it would be compaitable with my camera , i m getting neodyium filter which should make it a little darker , as for frames and exposures this is where im lost i have absolutly no idea lol im sorry to seem thick but its true i would no what settings to have on my camera on anything

kx

[jgs001]

Kelly,

For the remote shutter release

eos 10d remote shutter, Photography items at low prices on eBay.co.uk

and for the timer, although they appear to be rarer

10d timer remote, Photography items at low prices on eBay.co.uk

I can't comment on the specifics of those, as they are all different to the one I got for my 450d.

[dark knight]

From the spec of the Canon EOS 10D it appears it uses a CMOS sensor, a lot if not most imager's using DSLR's go for a CCD sensor due to sensitivity at low light levels, however there is no reason why you shouldn't get reasonable results with your camera.

The remote shutter just plugs into a port on the camera, there will be a dial on top of the camera which changes how the camera operates (shooting modes), it probably reads something like Auto, Aperture, Portrait, etc, just set it to M (manual), there is another dial on top which changes the shutter speed, set this until BULB appears on the top LCD.

Also set capture file type to RAW in the main menu.

See page 86 for more details of Manual settings- http://www.cleaningdigitalcameras.com/pdf/EOS10DIM-EN.pdf

The remote shutter is easily obtained Timer Remote Shutter Release - Canon Cameras N3 plug on eBay (end time 11-Nov-09 17:18:54 GMT)

Carl

[charmedkelly]

thanks carl, so do u think the camera isnt that good for astrophotography in ur opinion? i know i wont get nothing like the pros but i want to get a result to be proud of

Kxx

[jgs001]

Carl, the 450d is a CMOS sensor and it's working fine for me, I'm sure that this end of the Canon range are all CMOS sensors, so it's not an issue.

Kelly, with effort, persistence and patience you should get results to be proud of with that camera.

[charmedkelly]

thanks john i am determined to get a good result and post them on here. with people like u to help me i should be just fine

k

[dark knight]

I'm sure you will get some good results, I think the biggest problem faced by imager's is knowing the limitations of their equipment, it is so easy to see a great photo and think automatically that ones own equipment can compete, expectations can be detrimental to the beginner in imaging, remember some spend thousands of pounds on their cameras. You appear to have your feet firmly on the ground and I don't think your camera will let you down. Some people have produced great images of the moon using nothing but a mobile phone held to the eyepiece.

There are 2 distinct areas to astro-photography, 1 is capturing the data and 2 is processing that data into a final image. I have taken loads of images, which when compared to others appear only average, but that isn't the point, I took and produced those images and I am proud of them no matter how poor they are. The aim is to constantly try to improve and learn, then the whole process becomes easier. I have suffered more failures with my images, but I use those failures in a positive way to improve and hone my imaging skills, perseverance is the key.

I'm sure with guidance from the forum you will produce images you can be proud of, your Canon won't let you down, it's just a constant learning curve we all have had to go through (I'm still learning loads). And remember, keep asking those questions.

Carl

[dark knight]

John, I wasn't implying an issue with the CMOS sensors, merely pointing out a distinct preference to use CCD's. CMOS sensors can produce incredible results.

[jgs001]

No worries Carl. I thought the same thing when I first saw that the Canon use CMOS sensors, and only having read about CMOS based webcams... I guess the difference being the technology investment in an SLR compared to a simple webcam means that Canon have made them work a lot better generally. (It also works better if you read all the sentence... Sorry bout that)...

[dark knight]

Totally agree John, we have to remember the likes of Canon, Fuji and Nikon have invested a lot of time and money in Cmos sensors over the years so they can't be all that bad. As you say, there are plenty of forum members who have done or still do use Cmos based sensors. CCD sensors were just the next progression.

Carl

[charmedkelly]

Hello Every Again Sorry For Persistance.

Somone Told Me All of My Equipment Is Useless For Dso Imaging?

is it honestly?

[jgs001]

I'd have to say, that whilst it may not be ideal, it's not useless... I have used a teeny NexStar SLT with an ST80 on it (AltAz tracking) and was getting some decent results out of it. You ought to be able to get results with your current setup. Now... you will need to work out exactly how far you'll be able to go, but work on as accurate a polar alignment as you can get, push the camera hard (I know that there's been a lot of discussion on camera ISO and what's best, but I had good results using ISO1600, maxed out), be prepared for the fact you might be limited to 20 - 30 second exposures, and take shedloads of them... I don't mean 20 or 30... I mean 150 or maybe more...

Someone else on here, got a respectable M51 using a NexStar SLT with 15 second subs...

With my unmoddified SLR on that little AltAz mount, with 30 second exposures, I got the bubble nebula which is Ha (and needs some serious exposure to capture) it took 168 frames to do it, but it worked.

Will you be able to do 2 or 3 minutes ? probably not. But that's ok... just pick targets, clusters are good, that don't need long subs.

The trick is, to find out how far you can go with the kit you have, enjoy doing it, and don't worry about whether others think you can or can't do something with what you have. We'll help you get the most out of what you have.

[ncjunk]

Well put by John, I would suggest trying with M42 first and having a play with 15 to 30 second subs.

Go for something bright and relatively easy and once you have the hang of it try something a little bit more tricky.

To say it is useless is a bit harsh but then you will always find someone telling you that you should have bought this or that (usually involving large quantities of money that not everyone has...funnily enough). People tend to forget that good results can be achieved with minimal outlay and a bit of persistence.

One thing is for sure is that you will learn a lot in a short space of time!

Neil C

[charmedkelly]

Hello thanks so much for ur kind replys , as long as i can get a few good photos of clusters and a couple of bright galaxies i will upgrade my kit, but for now i need some help with a few things lol sorry to be a pain?

what do you mean by the minutes ect..... ?

and subs? not to sure about that

and setting exposure on my camera not to sure either i no it has to be long exposure ?

[jgs001]

Ok...

Minutes - for long exposures, you're looking into the realms of several minute exposures, set the camera to bulb mode. You have to have a remote shutter release, either manual lock or timed will work, the camera will wobble any other way as you have to hold the shutter button in...

Subs - Subframes, each image you take is a Sub, you take lots of them, then combine them in Deep Sky Stacker (it's free).

You have two choices on the camera... For what you're likely to be able to do, you can use just the camera, and can get away without a remote... set the camera to Manual. Set the ISO to 800 or 1600 (lots of subs helps with the noise a lot, as will darks)... don't worry if you see a red blob in one corner of the image, that's amp glow, and darks will remove it. Set the shutter speed to say 30 seconds, and the camera self timer to 10 seconds, if you have it, activate mirror lockup also (this moves the mirror box out of the way when the self timer starts and stops the movement of the mirror causing shifting in the image). With a little care, press the shutter button and step back. After 10 seconds the camera will take a 30 second exposure, 1 sub... repeat as many times as you can (this is where the timer remote comes in handy, as you can let that get on with it and don't have to go near the camera and scope). You'll need to check the first 30second exposure, zoom in as far as you can on the preview screen and look at the stars. If they have trailed a teeny bit (i.e. you can only see the trail when zoomed all the way in) that's ok, the images will stack and they won't be noticed in the end result. If it's obvious without being zoomed all the way in, then you'll need to reduce your exposure time, and repeat the test.

Ok, a few other things about the setup...

1) Mount the scope on a decent firm surface (not wooden decking, it bounces too much... I've ruined a fair few subs with that one ).. I stick mine on grass

2) Polar Align as accurately as you can. If you don't have one, it's probably worth investing in a polar scope. Take the time to setup the polar scope (have a google for Astro_baby's guide for the HEQ5, yes it's a different mount, but the principles should be the same.)

3) Balance the scope out as best you can... Before you do this, align the scope on a nice bright star and make sure the camera is as well focused as you can. I can't really help with that, as I use the liveview on my 450d to focus, but there's plenty who can advise on the most effective and cheapest way. I suspect though that you'll be needing to take a series of test shots and adjust focus after each one. A Bhatinov mask seems to be the tool of choice to assist in this. Anyway, balance the scope after you have focused, as moving the focuser may well upset the balance. I can't remember who said it, but put the focuser on the scope so that the camera is on the mount side of the scope (by rotating the scope in the rings) this helps balance (I think it was Steve Richards...) I don't know what the right way to balance is, but I normally balance the scope against the counter weights first, then along the other axis (sorry, I'm still not sure which axis is which ).

4) If your drive uses batteries, use fresh ones, the tracking is likely to be more accurate that way.

Get hold of a cope of Steve Richards (steppenwolf) book, Making Every Photo Count, the kit listed is the best option, but whatever the kit, the principles are the same.

[charmedkelly]

wow thanks so much , yeah i already have a polar scope

[charmedkelly]

how do i change the shutter speed will that setting be on the camera or the shutter realese thing or the timer remote ?

[charmedkelly]

sorry for the constant questio but someone told me a eq5 mount would help me out a bit better how much are they going for second hand ? just a rough idea for upgrade in the future ?

[ncjunk]

Eq5 I have seen for about 450 pounds second hand this morning somewhere...try astrobuysell.com/uk and have a look there every so often and you will see the odd EQ5 go through (or on here!)

Neil C

[ncjunk]

The shutter speed is a setting on the camera allowing up to 30 seconds normally.

If you want longer then you go over to the bulb setting where you press the shutter button once to start it and then again to stop it.

If you have the shutter set to 30 seconds and use the timer then the timer will take the picture after a 10 second delay (usually with a flashing led somewhere on the front of the camera to indicate the timer is operating)

It will then of course open the shutter for 30 seconds and then close again.

Neil C

[charmedkelly]

oh yes i better start saving then LOL but for the time being the eq3 mount should be ok