Spotters Scope v Binoculars

[Wozz]

Having spent a great deal of time reading up on the novice pages here I am looking to take my first leap in buying some effective equipment to get a start into astrogazing.

There are several articles around which cite both binoculars and spotter scopes as a good intro piece of kit so I am looking to invest in one or the other.

My current binoculars do not have anywhere near a big enough front lens so a purchase is necessary.

As such I wanted to gauge opinion on which is best to use as a novice. I have a great velux window I can use the gear from and I already have a decent tripod so the question remains should I invest in a spotter scope or binoculars for my first venture into some slightly more serious star gazing?

I am looking to spend up to around £150 (or less if possible) for something entry level so any recommendations of specific equipment would be most welcome?

Many thanks for any help offered in advance.

Oh yes - and any decent star map suggestions also most welcome.

[ashenlight]

Hi Wozz

Firstly, on the star map front, I would recommend buying an astro-mag (like The Sky at Night or Astronomy Now) that comes with a pull out star-map for that particular month. These are very useful, and list many objects - planets, DSOs, where the Moon will be at different phases throughout the month etc. If you would rather pay a bit more for a full Star Atlas, my suggestion would be a Norton Star Atlas.

Whilst the Norton can seem a little daunting at first with the really detailed star maps, it is a minefield of information - there are four chapters before the Star Maps actually start, talking about the solar system and 'practical astronomy' to name 2 subjects. It is a book that will stay with you for life, and grow with your interest. If you don't want to shell out for this straight away, just pick up an astro-mag like I said, it will certainly get you off to a flying start learning the sky

Here's some binoculars on First Light Optic's website - they are our forum sponsor. Most people tend to start with 10x50s (the first number being the magnification the binoculars yield and the second number being the diameter of the objective lens). Perhaps this is because they are 'regular' binoculars - people tend to have this kind of kit in the house already, perhaps for bird watching (this is how I started pointing binoculars skyward). 10x50s will provide you with fantastic views of the night sky, being good all-rounders for starting on the Moon, globular clusters, open clusters, galaxies, nebulae (think M42 Orion's Nebula) and, of course, the planets in our solar system (I can quite clearly see the 'disk' of Jupiter with my 10x50s). 10x50 binoculars tend to be fairly light too, meaning they have excellent portability, you can just take them out wherever you go to stargaze and be looking up at the sky in no time.

Another avenue to go down would be to take a step up on the spec of your binoculars, and go for something like 12x50s or 15x70s. Giving you a bigger objective lens (in the case of the 15x70s) you'd get slighter better views of the objects you are looking at (because the bigger objective lens allows more light in - this is key to astronomy, more light entering the eye means a better view!), whilst the higher magnification (in both 12x50s and 15x70s) will step up your observation to a higher degree (keep in mind though, that aperture (the diameter of the objective lens) is king in astronomy - as I say, light is what we like!). As you have a tripod, going for a bigger binocular wouldn't be a problem - you can use the tripod to take the weight off when you are observing. This reduces the portability of the larger binoculars somewhat, but binoculars do still remain, even at bigger sizes, the ultimate 'get up and go' piece of astronomy equipment. They are a brilliant way to learn the sky.

One of my biggest bits of advice to you would be take some time familiarising yourself with the night sky. Get to know the constellations, so that when you look towards the sky you know what you are looking at. This makes trying to find those tricky objects that little bit easier and will give you a great sense of achievement.

I have never used a spotter scope so I wouldn't want to give my opinion on them... hopefully someone will come forward with some good advice. My instinct would be that binoculars are easier to use, just from the point of holding them, but as I say someone may be able to offer more info on that You have a great budget there, use it wisely. You could always give First Light Optics a ring if you wanted to discuss your options - they'll be able to advise you on the best piece of kit for your budget.

Great to have you with us at SGL

[Wozz]

Hi Ashenlight,

Thanks so much for the detailed response.

I had a look at the Helios Binoculars and wondered would I be better going for an 80mm objective lens and 20x magnification or the 10 x 50 losing the larger size objective lens but gaining x1 magnification (if I understand correctly)?

Also, when making a price comparison there are beginner telescopes at around the same price band - and some look pretty good from what I can tell.

Would I be best placed just going straight for an entry level telescope or sticking with the binoculars until I have learned the basics of navigating my way around the night sky?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to make sure I get off on the right foot with my ventures.

[ashenlight]

That is no problem Wozz, I am glad to help out. Don't be sorry for asking questions, you are doing the right thing! and it is what we are here for!

the 10x50s will make the object appear 10 times as close, whilst the 20x80s will make the object appear 20 times as close, so giving you more magnification.

Most people find that binoculars with a mag of 10 is the highest they can easily hold steady - it is no good having a fantastic view through your equipment if you can't hold it still - it is very frustrating believe me, I've been there! If you are confident with using the tripod, and do not mind being restricted to using your binos only with the tripod, then go for the 20x80s - more light collecting power and more magnification.

If you are looking for something to hold in your hands and to easily transport, go for the 10x50s My gut reaction for you, starting out, is to start with the 10x50s. They are cheaper and will give you the views you crave whilst being portable and easy to manage. You can always use the tripod with them too, to hold the binoculars steady whilst you gaze, but this isn't necessary. Perhaps then any money you save can go into the pot for a future purchase of a more powerful binocular. Please try not to get drawn in to thinking 'the more I spend, and the more aperture I get, the better my time doing astronomy will be.' It is better for you to have a cheaper, less powerful (but by no means useless!) piece of kit that you will use for months, even years to come, rather than an expensive binocular or scope that you will find so cumbersome and off putting you will end up selling it. I've seen this happen so many times, to friends and even members of SGL.

There are some brilliant starter scopes around for very persuasive prices! I had my 10x50s for two years, gazing up at the night sky and just marvelling at all the gorgeous jewels up there. It was only when I had learnt the sky thoroughly with my binos, and the naked eye, I took the leap to purchase my first telescope. I think it is easy to get carried away and go for the biggest piece of kit you can afford - some people make this mistake and end up with a telescope they can't make head nor tail of because they just don't know what to point it at!

One of the best ways to find your way around the night sky is using a technique called 'star-hopping.' This is using well known constellations and asterisms (the big dipper, Leo etc) to trace your way around the sky, pointing you in the right direction of the object you are trying to locate. One of the easiest ways to start this is with the naked eye, but it is also a great way to use binoculars. I would recommend starting with this technique, with the aid of a star map, some high quality 10x50s and of course your naked eye to really get to grips with the night sky. Then, when you know your way around, you can progress onto a telescope. Your enthusiasm is wonderful, and please if you really want to go for the 20x80s or even a telescope, go for it. You are obviously a really careful person when it comes to purchasing and I'm sure you'll make an informed decision. But my advice would be to do what I did - 10x50s, a sun lounger and a star map

I hope this helps and answers you queries.. please don't hesitate to ask more questions if you need more answers Remember, start off small with big ambitions for the future, instead of starting off big and falling at the first hurdle

You might find this website useful for some extra reading on binoculars, it explains things really well.

[Wozz]

Wise words Ashenlight thank you again.

10 x 50's it is then.

I can use the spare cash for a new sun lounger

[ashenlight]

Great plan get a few cushions and a sleeping bag if you haven't got any spare it can get quite chilly out there!

Like I said any questions ask away... looking forward to your first observation report when the binos arrive

[Wozz]

I have an excellent sleeping bag and large collection of warm clothing which will now see more than its annual trip to the ski slopes.

I will also soon have a nice set of 10 x 50 Bins courtesy of an order placed with First Light Optics this evening

[ashenlight]

Brilliant

enjoy

just a quick heads up incase you don't know.. the annual Perseid meteor shower is kicking off around now, it peaks around August 12/13th and can have a ZHR (zenithal hourly rate - basically how many meteors you see per hour under perfect conditions) of around 100, so it's worth a look! I'll be in the garden on my sun lounge over the next few weeks whenever it is clear, you never know:)

[Wozz]

Fantastic thanks for the tip. I'll definitely be keeping my eye out for that and hope it doesn't make for too many late nights (and subsequent late mornings either).

I suppose its something I'd better get used to!

[ashenlight]

Yep, but think of all the amazing things you'll see as a result of those late nights When I was starting out I promised myself I'd go out for a few hours once a fortnight (or more if I could). It was a good goal to set myself, not too much pressure and didn't affect my sleeping patterns too much. Astronomy is so worth the bleary eyed mornings though

[Wozz]

I'll sensibly aim for a couple of times a week if not more but can't afford too many sleepy mornings with work. I'll try and sychronise my days working at home with the clear prior evenings.

If I turn all the lights off in this office (at home) and open the Velux I can just lean back in this chair and have a great view also

Yes - I did just try that

[johninderby]

The previous posts have covered the subject pretty well but have you thought of getting a suitable book such as "Exploring the Night Sky with Binoculars" which is a part of the Patrick Moore series of books?

John

[Wozz]

I hadn't but I am open to any suggestions so will have a look for that one too as it sounds like a good place to start also. Having bought a fairly cheap pair of binoculars I can spare a little for a few books. I think I may take a trip to Waterstones tomorrow and see if they have any of the suggested books in stock so i can flick through them before buying.

Thanks for the suggestion

[johninderby]

For some more on the book Amazon.com has some detailed info worth looking at.

http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Night-Binoculars-Patrick-Moore/dp/0521793904#reader

I've got a copy myself and just got it down off the shelf to have another look through it.

John

[Wozz]

Thanks JOhn it looks like its worth the investment.

I have just been looking at iphone apps also. Is there a standard app that most people use? I have seen a few which seem to have pretty good star maps but its hard to know which one to go for.

[Wozz]

I just downloaded one called pocket universe ... it seems to have the highest ratings from the users compared to many of the other apps.

[Capricorn]

Might be a bit "old" but buy a book.

Easier to read anywhere and means you can plan a bit in advance.

There is a site called www.tonightssky.com if you enter your lat, long, time zone (GMT+1), then a horizon of say 30 deg and select a magnitude that selects mainly "bright" objects, say mag 6, then it will give a list of what is visible that evening. Sounds worse then it is.

Another option is Touring the Universe through Binoculars Atlas which a program to install that was intended for binocular viewing.

As to a book go find one that you can get on with. Many recommend Turn Left at Orion, I use The Monthly Sky Guide. I get on with it better and prefer the way information of given. Go have a look in a good bookshop and make your choice.

For software many download and use Stellarium, a search should easily locate it for download and installation.

[Vulpecula]

The Sky at Night magazine is indeed good as pointed out but something to bear in mind is that if you SUBSCRIBE to the magazine, there's an offer on right now where you'll get a copy of Norton's Star Atlas FREE.

That's what I did.

- and Norton Star Atlas is a LOVELY book - very classy indeed.

[Vulpecula]

One more thing...

I see you've plumped for the Binoculars: Good Choice!!

Normally I wouldn't recommend buying binoculars without checking them out, but since they're from FLO I'm sure they'll be more than good enough for your purpose.

I have a Spotting Scope as well as Binoculars and a good Telescope

I love my spotting scope very much - plus it has the bonus of being useful for other hobbies too. I use it almost every night that I am out. The most important thing to remember about a spotting scope is that they do not have enough magnification for detailed planetary observation. Nonetheless, I love mine and will take it with me everywhere I travel.

But if I could only have one instrument to use?

- I'd go for the Binoculars every time. Despite the stuff I have, the binoculars get by far the most use, and it's possible to spend an entire evening drifting through the Milky Way with them.

[Milamber]

I am currently "evaluating" half a dozen pairs of compact bins - for various reasons, more later - and so far there are two main factors becoming apparent.

First, the biggie - there's no substitute for aperture. That would mean here that bins win out over spotting scopes since, if you are going to hold something up there, it may as well have twice the light-capture capacity.

Second, BAK-4 prisms give awesome views edge to edge... lesser prisms start to lose it at maybe 90% (even less for cheaper ones).

There are lots of other reasons to choose bins, and many points to look for also but for me, number two above is very important but a picky thing that has a amazingly high bug-factor is the IOD (Intra-ocular distance) adjustment. I have an expensive pair of Eschenbaun's that are fantastic performers and yet have a weak hinge point. Every time I pick them up I have to reset the distance. On the other had, a wee pair of Dia Stone bins are rock sold and yet easy to adjust. That may be because they are dual-axis but even so, they are the ones in my pocket right now.

Spotting scopes are just that really, if you are an archer (and a pansy arena archer at that) then fine, otherwise bins every time.

Arthur

[Milamber]

PS - I will add this though... for a good few years I have (often loudly) questioned the benefits to be had by adding coatings (ruby, green, etc.) to Bino objectives. I am beginning to change my mind, and this has been brought about by the abovementioned Dia Stone beasties - ruby coated and with noticeably better contrast than a similar specced pair without the coatings. Then I think that maybe that's not surprising if we consider the multitude of filters we drop in our telescopes to boost contrast, tone down chroma, etc. Just a thought - but there are bad coatings as well as good.

[jgs001]

A wise choice... a pair of Binos' particularly 10x50's which are easily handheld are...

a) one of the fastest ways of viewing... setup time... next to nothing

provide superb widefield views

c) a great way to learn the night sky

d) and will get used even when you have an array of scopes

Lidl often sell Bresser 10x50's at very cheap prices, I think they are made by Meade and are these. I have a pair and use them a lot.

My refractor telescopes were sold as spotter scopes, although I have to admit, I've never used them for that purpose. The main difference I think between a "standard" spotter and an astronomical scope (even when sold as a spotter) is the eyepieces... In a standard spotter, you have a fixed ep, ok, it's probably a zoom ep, but you can't swap it out for something else.

A good book for bins, is Stargazing with Binoculars published by Philips. It's what I started with, have a look at http://stargazerslounge.com/equipment-reviews/56871-stargazing-binoculars-beginners-first-review.html

[Vulpecula]

Some of these assumptions are no longer true with today's products, due to improved manufacturing processes and materials:

there's no substitute for aperture

Modern coatings can render aperture comparisons meaningless. I compared the following three current-model Helios binoculars:

1. 10x50 Naturesport Plus

2. 10x56 Mistral WM5

3. 12x50 Aquila

The brightest by far were pair 3 - the 12x50 - which were significantly brighter than the others two, due to superior coatings.

bins win out over spotting scopes since, if you are going to hold something up there, it may as well have twice the light-capture capacity

Going by that logic then, telescopes would be considered pointless compared to binoculars Magnification is where spotters win; there's not many binoculars (though there are some of course) which can do 30x, and fewer still that can do 60x. In terms of aperture, these magnifications all have exit pupils >1mm so aperture isn't a problem; no different - obviously - from similar short-tube refractor telescopes.

The main area where a Spotting Scope wins is convenience: You get telescope-like performance with binocular-like portability.

Spotting scopes are just that really, if you are an archer (and a pansy arena archer at that) then fine, otherwise bins every time.

This is no longer true. Companies such as Zeiss and Leica plough their very best optical technology into spotting scopes, since the requirements of birdwatchers exceed those of astronomy. Nonetheless, I don't think of this as being an "either/or" type of argument: I wouldn't buy a Spotting Scope unless I already had a good pair of binoculars, naturally.

Modern spotting scopes are very impressive occulars indeed.

[Milamber]

Yes, modern spotting scopes are, but once your magnification exceeds your elbow's effective stability then you are throwing money away. Ergo, spotting scopes are pointless without a tripod == pointless for quick/pocket astro viewing and, whilst the OP stated he had a tripod, my points are still valid for widefield astro. Telescopes <> bins since again, scopes are made to be mounted and bins are not. Direct *comparisons* between scopes and bins will never be equal or fair, they are for different situations... bit like 40 ton trucks and motorcycles.

Arthur

PS -the bit about the pansy arena archers is valid whatever

[Vulpecula]

Oh, I see...

I guess I pre-supposed a tripod.

I guess many "birders" eschew tripods altogether and use bean-bags like these: Camera Bean Bag for Nikon, Canon and all makes of SLR or DSLR Camera - How to Buy - which would be complete unsuitable for astronomy (I'll still buy one though, since I like the look of them, and I'm sure I can find a use for it for non-astronomy purposes)

My scope (like many others) comes with a miniature tabletop tripod which - whilst very wobbly - does have crude but effective slow-motion control dials which suit me fine for holiday-scope purposes

When I take it outside at home, I mount it on a stonking great SkyWatcher AZ4 with extension pillar.