Advice on Berlebach tripod, AZ75 and counterweight for TSA-120

[Nicola Fletcher]

Hi all,

I know some of these questions have been partially answered elsewhere, but I would just like to ask a couple of questions before spending the absolute last of my astronomy equipment fund.

I have recently bought an AZ75 to mount my new Takahashi TSA-120. It's currently on a Skywatcher flat topped tripod which works ok as the bolts on the underside of the AZ75 can be moved to the outermost position and it's quite stable. However, I am not happy to mount the TSA on this without a counterweight - I am not sure of the stability of the tripod. I've been double mounting the TSA with the FC100DZ just to counterweight it a bit but would like to be able to use it as a one-scope setup.

My question is whether it would be safe to mount the TSA-120 with Tak clamshell, 7 x 50 finder and 2" eyepieces on the AZ75 if I buy a Berlebach Uni 28 or 18? Or should I just buy the Rowan counterweight? Given the price of the counterweight I would prefer just to get the Berlebach if you think it would work, since I would like to get one at some point in the future anyway. But if the mount and Berlebach are not stable enough to hold the TSA without a counterweight, I'll just get the counterweight now and the Berlebach in the future.

One more question - which is better, the Uni 18 or 28? I saw on another thread that the 28 is used by some members, but I don't really understand why. And - last question! - is there a base plate that would allow me to mount both my AZ75 and my AZ-EQ5 should I wish to?

Thank you in advance!

[JeremyS]

I don’t have your exact setup, Nicola. But I use my TSA 120 on an Az100 on a UNI 28 without counterweight (I do have a cwt and arm, but found it unnecessary).

It’s a while since I bought the UNI 28 so I can’t exactly remember my considerations, but I think I got it as it’s taller (meaning you don’t need to extend the legs so much to get the same height).

Not sure about your base q. My UNI and Planet are  EQ 6 versions, but also accept the AZ100 fitting. I think the AZEQ 5 might be different fitting.

[Stephenstargazer]

I dont use a 120mm refractor, but suspect a counterbalance is a good idea for stability. The only difference bwteen UNI18 and UNI 28 is the heights. The higher tripod will have a wider spread but that's no help if you observe seated!! An AZ75 with M10 thread will fit the same tripod as an HEQ5 so should also match AZ-EQ5. A Berlebach with an HEQ5 topplate should achieve this for both mounts but  you may need a slightly longer tripod screw for the Rowan. Experience on this point seems to differ.

Cost of counterweights - do you have some 20mm bore counterwights, common to many mounts including SW I think? If so then you need a counterweight bar 20mm dia and with an M16 thread to fit the Rowan. I found that the counterweight bar used by a VIxen AP mount has just these sizes and possibly there are others or even a generic bar as sold by TS in Germany. The Rowan ones are beautiful but a kg is a kg is a kg.

@Nicola Fletcher Update on counterweight bars - I believe there is an Ioptron acessory bar 20dia and M16 thread at FLO who will confirm dims for you.

Edited September 9 by Stephenstargazer
Update

[Deadlake]

Nicola,

I do not think you need a counter weight at all.

Here is a 130 mm LZOS (the tube plus rings is around 11.5 kg) and no stability issues. It's very solid, on nudge tests return to centre immediately. The tripod legs are spread very wide...  Again on an AZ100, so...



so what works on an AZ75?, C11, no problem...




works fine as well.

What I did find adds stability are pier's, now on both:



Also makes swapping mounts between tripod plug and play.

If I was going to buy anything I would focus on the Tripod. The Avalon T-Pod (100 kg load) I have can take anything I case to throw at it. BB are good but heavy.

If you have stability issues I would start there.

BB versus Avalon, speak to @swsantos he has had both, for me lightness wins over wood.






 

Edited September 5 by Deadlake

[Elp]

Best way is to test the imbalance indoors, and try to tip the setup over whilst being in a position to "catch" it. It's also beneficial to test this on underlaid carpet if you have it as it's more springy and unstable to add to the test.

The BB range I believe goes in some sort of height order. I got my Uni 4 directly as I wanted the shortest one for stability (mostly imaging), and I wanted it in the colour I desired, and it was cheaper. Trust me, just get one, opening it brought a genuine smile to me, and I don't often smile...

[Stephenstargazer]

Tipping test (2 people under controlled conditions!) is a good idea and think about unintended actions/uneven ground.

AZ100 +motors = ~10.25 kg. AZ75 = ~4.5kg. However a Berlebach UNI is moderately heavy, will add 8-9kg,  and you can spread the legs wider if you omit or modify the spreader/chains/tray.

 

[Nicola Fletcher]

Thanks - great advice. 
 

@Deadlake, looks like I don’t need to worry too much, given the scopes you are mounting! I suppose I just want this to be rock solid, on uneven ground, with people potentially bumping into it at observing events etc. Hence my idea to counterweight or use a very stable mount such as the Berlebach.

@Stephenstargazer, I actually bought the Rowan counterweight bar and assumed the counterweights I already have would be ok. I have tried the Skywatcher bar as well as the one that fits on my Giro Ercole but they are too narrow to fit on the AZ75 unfortunately. It’s a good idea to look for another bar though - I’ll do that. My thought was that if I don’t need the counterweight I’d prefer to put the money into the tripod.

I think I’ll stick with the baseplate for the AZ100/75 and not try to do too much ‘one size fits all’. Thanks for the advice @JeremyS.

@Elp, the photos of those Berlebachs on SGL certainly make me smile. They are fabulous!

[ST_Steve]

If you go the Berlebach route you could contact the BB technical team via email or direct through the website to enquire about the bolt lengths and purchase additional bolts to suit? I posted about bolt lengths recently in the AZ100 owners thread (albeit AZ100/EQ6 and planet), there’s always a solution!

I doubt the AZ75 would have any problem without CW’s but personally would opt for a BB tripod and as said above go for wider leg spread. There is an adjustable spreader to fit the UNI that can be specified at time of order. I found that spiked feet added more stability over the rubber type, particularly on soft ground…

[Elp]

It might apply to all unis but I didn't go for the spreader so I can adjust each leg to any angle I want, at the top of each leg side is a tension adjustment lever so you can stiffen their movement. The bottom of each leg has rubber feet but you can screw them upward to reveal the spikes inside, and each leg has a mini foot pedal at the bottom so you can sink each leg into the grass with the spikes for more stability. Therefore didn't need the spreader or chains.

[Nicola Fletcher]

17 hours ago, ST_Steve said:

If you go the Berlebach route you could contact the BB technical team via email or direct through the website to enquire about the bolt lengths and purchase additional bolts to suit?

Very good point @ST_Steve, I’ll do that. Thanks also for the advice about the spreader bar/spiked feet. @Elp, I think the rubber feet/spiked feet are optional (the default option is spiked feet without rubber feet) so I’ll go for the dual option.

Many thanks for your advice!

[JeremyS]

My BB Planet came with spikes but I found I mainly used on hard surfaces, so I replaced them with rubber feet. Not noticed any reduction in stability. When I got the BB UNI, I ordered with rubber feet. I didn’t know there was a dual option.

[Nicola Fletcher]

Just now, JeremyS said:

My BB Planet came with spikes but I found I mainly used on hard surfaces, so I replaced them with rubber feet. Not noticed any reduction in stability. When I got the BB UNI, I ordered with rubber feet. I didn’t know there was a dual option.

On the Beelebach website you can choose either/or or both. I initially thought rubber feet as my other tripods are like that, but the dual option could come in very handy.

[MalcolmM]

@Nicola Fletcher, I've the UNI 18 and whereas it's very light, very portable and very steady, it's a little on the small size. I have an extension pier and even with that, using refractors means knees on ground, or as low a setting as you can get on an observing chair. I traded this 'inconvenience' off against portability, but sometimes wish I had gone for the higher UNI 28.

Maybe another thing to consider as your 120 is longer than any of my refractors? 

Malcolm 

PS phone camera distortion makes the scope height look better than it is! I could not observe sitting on that dining chair. Also there is an extra 1.5" height in the adapter to convert the Ercole to a Vixen fitting.

[JeremyS]

3 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

@Nicola Fletcher, I've the UNI 18 and whereas it's very light, very portable and very steady, it's a little on the small size. I have an extension pier and even with that, using refractors means knees on ground, or as low a setting as you can get on an observing chair. I traded this 'inconvenience' off against portability, but sometimes wish I had gone for the higher UNI 28.

Maybe another thing to consider as your 120 is longer than any of my refractors? 

Malcolm 

PS phone camera distortion makes the scope height look better than it is! I could not observe sitting on that dining chair. Also there is an extra 1.5" height in the adapter to convert the Ercole to a Vixen fitting.

You don’t want spikes on that lovely floor Malcolm! 😊

[Nicola Fletcher]

11 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

@Nicola Fletcher, I've the UNI 18 and whereas it's very light, very portable and very steady, it's a little on the small size. I have an extension pier and even with that, using refractors means knees on ground, or as low a setting as you can get on an observing chair. I traded this 'inconvenience' off against portability, but sometimes wish I had gone for the higher UNI 28.

Maybe another thing to consider as your 120 is longer than any of my refractors? 

Malcolm 

PS phone camera distortion makes the scope height look better than it is! I could not observe sitting on that dining chair. Also there is an extra 1.5" height in the adapter to convert the Ercole to a Vixen fitting.

@MalcolmM I see exactly what you mean. With the SW tripod we were on our knees at the weekend, even with the legs extended. The TSA is a long scope so I understand the reason for the 28. Thanks for that 👍🏻

[MalcolmM]

38 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

You don’t want spikes on that lovely floor Malcolm! 😊

You warned me about that in the past  so I got the rubber feet 🙂

Great call, as it spends most of its time in the house, there being so many clouds around at the moment!

Like you, I don't notice any loss in stability with the rubber feet, and they stay on permanently now. Maybe spikes are more beneficial if imaging on grass.

I've never used the chain, and do like the tray for holding eyepieces etc.

Malcolm 

[Elp]

2 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

I have an extension pier and even with that, using refractors means knees on ground, or as low a setting as you can get on an observing chair

This is a drawback. For high usage scenarios I use my Innorel CF tripods as they can be set so the scope is mounted at or above head height. Can see near zenith targets quite comfortably leaning over but standing up. I've used my SF102 mounted onto my Cubo WO CW perfectly fine like this.

Edited September 6 by Elp

[Jan Stryker]

TeleVue uses a Berlabach UNI14 tripod with tray and chain for their telescopes.  I have the NP101is with a UNI14 and purchased the BB adapter for the AZ-100.  This setup I feel is very stable.

[Captain Scarlet]

I have several BB tripods, one Uni 18 two Uni 28s a Planet and a Report. Mounting my 140 refractor on the Uni 28 with either Vixen GPD2 or Skytee2, I found getting anywhere near zenith impossible: tripod-strike. I needed a shorter tripod and a pillar to make either work, that tripod being the Uni 18. Pillar on a 28 is too high.

By the way

On 04/09/2024 at 17:43, Nicola Fletcher said:

… the absolute last of my astronomy equipment fund …

Hahaha lololol!

Magnus

Edited September 7 by Captain Scarlet

[John]

1 hour ago, Captain Scarlet said:

I have several BB tripods, one Uni 18 two Uni 28s a Planet and a Report. Mounting my 140 refractor on the Uni 28 with either Vixen GPD2 or Skytee2, I found getting anywhere near zenith impossible: tripod-strike....

Interesting. I found my Uni 28 worked fine at the zenith with my F/9.2 130mm triplet. I was not relying on GOTO, motors etc though. If tripod-strike looked at all possible, I just moved the legs of the tripod around a little before centering the scope on the target.

I guess an automated system might hit things, if they are hittable.

Edit: the mounts I used here were the Vixen GP-DX, an HEQ5 and the Skytee II.

 

 

 

Edited September 8 by John

[Elp]

You might need a pier extension tube to get tripod leg clearance especially with refractors and newtonians, I need one when using my SF102 and high targets, with my Z61 (just about, depends on the mount being used) or C6 I can get away without.

[JeremyS]

17 hours ago, John said:

Interesting. I found my Uni 28 worked fine at the zenith with my F/9.2 130mm triplet. I was not relying on GOTO, motors etc though. If tripod-strike looked at all possible, I just moved the legs of the tripod around a little before centering the scope on the target.

I guess an automated system might hit things, if they are hittable.

Edit: the mounts I used here were the Vixen GP-DX, an HEQ5 and the Skytee II.

 

 

 

I don’t use a pier extension with my Tak TSA 120 on a Rowan AZ100 on the UNI 28 either. Which is what I want as it keeps the weight down.

[Nicola Fletcher]

On 08/09/2024 at 01:57, Captain Scarlet said:

Hahaha lololol!

I know - I laughed a bit at myself there! 
I should clarify: for this particular setup and at this particular moment 😂

[Deadlake]

Funding new astro purchases, do I sell some an item I do not use.
However if I do that will I have to buy another one in the future.

This can happen with EP’s or can happen to any item….