Polar aligning HEQ5 Pro with the "new" engraved Polar Scope

[Obsi]

Hello everyone,

my Name is Dan from Germany and I'm very new to astrologie and using a Telescope. A Shop put together the HEQ5 and a Skywatcher 200 PDS and some accessories for me.

I build it all up it the living room to see how it all works and I have two major problems to which I'm seeking advice.

First thing is the "home position" for the SynScan, I understand from Videos how its done with the fixing of the green rings to the leveled axis but with the heq5 I can only refix the green ring form the DEC axis. The one for the RA Axis doesn't move when the screw is tightend. It does move though when I losen it, but it then can easily be moved by hand and it doesnt turn without sticking some times. Also it seems like a waste of time to always measure the level of the axis prior to every stargazing session. How have you guys fixed this issue?

Second thing is the polar alignment. The Polar Scope moves with the RA Axis, the manual just sais put 0 on top and 9 on the bottom... well this is kind of vague judging this through this little scope every time when I'm outside. The trackers succesfull guiding will pretty much rely on a exact polar alignment. Here again not beeing able to fix the green ring with the movement of the axis is super annoying since one can't do this once precisely and return to it later. How do you guys manage this efficiently?

Many thanks in advance and appologies if language isn't accurate, I'm not a native speaker 😉

Dan

[M40]

Hello Obsi and welcome to the site. 

First off, be assured that you are not alone with the learning curve, so ask away.

Not sure what you mean by green ring, but my heq5 is an old version now so hopefully someone will jump in.

Both the dec and ra axis adjustment bolts operate in the same way, you have to loosen one of the pair and tighten with the other, this will move yhe mount in the direction of the tightening bolt. Small adjustments allow small movements of the mount.

Where you say the mount sticks sometimes, you may have overtightened the mount fixing bolt, it needs to be tight but not so tight you dont get any movement.

Ignore the numbers on the polar scope and just treat it like a clock face. Regardless of the position of the numbers, just think that 12 is at the top so if the polar time you are looking for is 7 o'clock,  just aim to get polaris at the 7 o'clock posion.

The polar scope brightness can be adjusted in the app or the handset, aim for a level where it is bright enough for you to see the dial but not so bright that you can't see Polaris.

There are no short cuts unfortunately so each time you move the mount you will need to polar align. You can make it slightly quicker by when you find your mount position and have levelled it, mark the position of the tripod on the floor, leave the legs extended so you can return the mount to exactly the same place.

All the best and hope it helps.

[Obsi]

Hi M40,

thank you for your help!

Is polar aligning this way accurate enough? It still be quiete vague, if the "time" is guessed won't it?

Regarding the "rings", I must have expressed myself wrong. I added two pictures of these green scale rings. The one without my art in it, can be moved and fixed to the axis. Like set it to 90 when in level, then I can always return to this position and I know its leveled or turn it to 0 then its correct for home position.

The other one thoug can not be fixed to the axis, if the screw is tightend, the ring doesn't move when I turn the RA Axis. So theres no way for me to return to a once determined position of which I need two (1 is home point, 2 is correct alignment of polar scope with 0 up and 6 down) I always have to level again.

I am thinking of sticking these pointy arrow post-its for signaturing documents on the mount, so I can return to this positions. But there must be another way than sticking post-its to an quite expensive piece of technology lol

[M40]

Ahh, those green rings,  with you.

This is my routine and how I use those rings. You will need a bubble level and a pencil.

Plonk the mount on the tripod and level it. Without the telescope or weights fitted, extend the weight bar, by releasing the clutch, rotate the mount so that the weight bar is horizontal, use the bubble. When it is level, set the appropriate scale to 6 or 18 and lock the scale in position. Rotate the head to show 12 or 24 and lock in position. Using the pencil, mark a line on the body of the mount and on the adjacent part of the head. Now do the same with the other axis and draw a line on the mount. This enables you to quickly return to this position at start up and after polar alignment.

This sets the moving part of the mount to its home position, not polar algnment. Polar alignment sets the position of the fixed part of the mount so that the fixed part of the mount is pointing towards polaris.

When you do polar alignment, you will need to rotate the head 90' so that you can see through the polar scope, when you are finished rotate the mount so that the lines are lined up.

As you say, one of the rings can be locked, the other can only be locked in one position, no idea why, there is probably a good reason.

So your steps are, level the tripod, set the mount to its home position, polar align, set the mount to its home position. Just a bit of info, when you have polar aligned, physically look at the polar scope position and spin the head in all ways. The polar scope position does not move. Polar alignment is setting the fixed part of the mount.

All the best and hope it makes some sort of sense.

Edited February 6 by M40
Speling

[Obsi]

Thanks again!

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When it is level, set the appropriate scale to 6 or 18 and lock the scale in position. Rotate the head to show 12 or 24 and lock in position. Using the pencil, mark a line on the body of the mount and on the adjacent part of the head. Now do the same with the other axis and draw a line on the mount.

The Problem is, I can only do this with one axis, since I can't lock the scale on the RA Axis. If I lock it, it doesn't move, if I leave the screw out, I'm not sure if it turns exactly like the axis...

Quote

As you say, one of the rings can be locked, the other can only be locked in one position, no idea why, there is probably a good reason.

Maybe it was good for the old polar alignment scope...

Quote

Using the pencil, mark a line on the body of the mount and on the adjacent part of the head.

I'll try that, but if that's the solution for this expensive mount, I kind of feel ripped off.

Funny thing, in a different forum in November 2015 someone posted this regarding the "new" polar alignment scope:

Quote

I got an addendum on a piece of A5 paper describing the NEW polar scope engraving.

I too got that A5 Paper with the exact same wording 9 years later...

 

I think I'll find a way to fix my "home position", I found a hint where with the SynScan I can turn one axis 90 Degrees so I should be fine without that one useless scale ring.

But I still don't know how to polar align this or more precisely how I get that clock in the scope perfectly aligned with 0 beeing up and 6 down.

I did not understand this, could you explain this differently?

Quote

Just a bit of info, when you have polar aligned, physically look at the polar scope position and spin the head in all ways.

Many thanks and greetings!

[bosun21]

I loosen the screw on the ring in my HEQ5 when setting the home position. This allows the ring to rotate the 90° required to set the RA home position. As has already been said use a spirit level to level the counterweight bar and once level I set the green ring (setting circle) to 90° and then rotate the counterweight bar down to align with the north facing tripod leg. Depending on which side you placed the counterweight bar the green ring should be either 0° or 180°. Set the latitude with the adjustment bolts until Polaris is seen in the polar scope. I use an app to show the position of Polaris on the polar scope reticle and adjust both the azimuth and latitude bolts to place Polaris in the position shown on the app. I also had to centre the actual polar scope reticle with the three small allen screws on the polar scope itself. This ensures that the polar scope stays centered on the target while rotating the RA through 180°. Make sure that the mount and handset are powered up to command the mount to go to the home position which is found in the utility menu. Then set everything I said above to find the home position and switch the power off as instructed. This allows the mount to remember the home position so you need to set the home position only once. I also mark both axis on the mount with a small mark to enable me to quickly place the mount in the home position.

[M40]

11 hours ago, bosun21 said:

Make sure that the mount and handset are powered up to command the mount to go to the home position which is found in the utility menu. Then set everything I said above to find the home position and switch the power off as instructed. This allows the mount to remember the home position so you need to set the home position only once.

Great point there from bosun21 which I had missed. By getting the mount to drive to its home position from the app or handset, then setting the mount to the marked lines you are now at the mount home position.

11 hours ago, Obsi said:

But I still don't know how to polar align this or more precisely how I get that clock in the scope perfectly aligned with 0 beeing up and 6 down.

Polar alignment is all about getting polaris in the correct position on the polar scope. Ignoring any numbers on the polar scope, start by getting polaris in the field of view of the polar scope. Then using an app or the handset find where polaris should be on the reticule and aim for that. 

[LandyJon]

1 hour ago, M40 said:

Ignoring any numbers on the polar scope

Those green rings should allow you to dial in the polar clock accurately, provided the RA ring rotates with the RA axis, which I'm not sure from reading above if that is happening properly on this mount or not.

The way I've used it in the past, before laptop software took over the process, was to set polaris to the 00:00 position by centering the star on the crosshair using alt az bolts, then adjust just the alt bolts move polaris vertically to the top of the (clock face) ring.  Then rotate the RA axis so the little polaris circle is centred on polaris and set your green ring to 00:00

Now your green ring can be used to dial in an accurate time from one of the polaris timing apps eg ...

This shows a time of 08:31 but your dial has a 24 count ... no problem just double the 08:31 to 16:62 obviously we're on clock base numbers so 60 is an hour (just being clear for everyone) so we have 17:02 to dial in on the RA axis and we simply adjust the alt az bolts to put polaris back in its circle, now at the 08:31 position.

Realistically by this method the 00:01 is impossible to pinpoint on the green dial where 1mm is about 00:06 The only way to do it more accurately is by having software make the rotation to exactly 08:31

Hopefully this mounts RA dial can be used this way as I understood it to be the most accurate way to polar align without computer control.

Edit : just to warn, be sure these rotations aren't going to cause a clash between scope and tripod ! ... the process can be adapted to rotate from polaris at a 6 o'clock position only needing a <45° rotation to 08:31 ... 02:31 clockwise so 05:02 on the dial ... or you could go anticlockwise from a 9 o'clock position 00:29 or 00:58 anticlockwise on the dial ... which is why the ring counts in either direction.  3 and 9 o'clock require an az only adjustment to polaris from the crosshair obviously.

Edited February 7 by LandyJon

[LandyJon]

13 hours ago, Obsi said:

But I still don't know how to polar align this or more precisely how I get that clock in the scope perfectly aligned with 0 beeing up and 6 down.

Ment to include this in previous post, but the process of putting polaris in the crosshair then adjust alt only bolts to move it to the outer ring puts it at 00:00 ... then rotating RA so the circle is on polaris has set your polar scope to 00:00 which is where you need to be able to set these green rings to 00 ... if they can't be fixed to the axis, I dont see how you are supposed to accurately dial in a polaris time.

[M40]

I use those green rings to set home position only and then only if I want to check the marks Ihave made. I have never used them for polar alignment as the later reticule does not have the small polaris circle so the process is not required (going to sit and wait now to be told I have been doing it wrong 🤣). Out of interest, I always polar align with the telescope in position.

Here is a very poor screenshot of new (on left) and old reticules.

LandyJon's image above shows where to position polaris on the reticule. I think bosun21 mentioned above that you can turn the polar scope in the mount so the reticule is positioned correctly, the polar scope can also be focused.

During the setting up of the app or handset, ensure that your precise location and local time is set correctly, in particular ensure the date is installed correctly.

After polar alignment, do at least a two star alignment. On going to the first star it's likely to be out so just use the handset or app to centre the star in the eyepiece, hopefully the second star alignment will be close or spot on. Let us know how you get on.

Edited February 7 by M40

[bosun21]

4 minutes ago, M40 said:

I use those green rings to set home position only and then only if I want to check the marks Ihave made. I have never used them for polar alignment as the later reticule does not have the small polaris circle so the process is not required (going to sit and wait now to be told I have been doing it wrong 🤣). Out of interest, I always polar align with the telescope in position.

Here is a very poor screenshot of new (on left) and old reticules.

LandyJon's image above shows where to position polaris on the reticule. I think bosun21 mentioned above that you can turn the polar scope in the mount so the reticule is positioned correctly, the polar scope can also be focused.

During the setting up of the app or handset, ensure that your precise location and local time is set correctly, in particular ensure the date is installed correctly.

After polar alignment, do at least a two star alignment. On going to the first star it's likely to be out so just use the handset or app to centre the star in the eyepiece, hopefully the second star alignment will be close or spot on. Let us know how you get on.

Exactly what I do as well. I only used the settings circles to set the home position. They are redundant in polar alignment. I just use the adjustment bolts and screws to place Polaris on the respective part of the reticle as highlighted by the app for your given time and location.

[AstroMuni]

On 06/02/2024 at 22:22, Obsi said:

But I still don't know how to polar align this or more precisely how I get that clock in the scope perfectly aligned with 0 beeing up and 6 down.

Put Polaris in the middle of the circle and then adjust the alt bolts so that Polaris now moves vertically up. That should be 12 O'clock. You could do the same downwards to get 6 O'clock position. Mark the position on your ring/body of the mount so you know the home position.

Note: if its a new mount, I would double check that the Polarscope reticle is correctly aligned as well. Read https://www.myastroscience.com/polarscopecalibration

Edited February 7 by AstroMuni

[bosun21]

11 hours ago, AstroMuni said:

Note: if its a new mount, I would double check that the Polarscope reticle is correctly aligned as well. Read https://www.myastroscience.com/polarscopecalibration

Exactly what I do with every new EQ mount. It's a very finicky process but definitely worth doing.

[Obsi]

Hello everyone,

so I got back in touch with the seller of the telescope and he told me it all has only to be vaguely correct, with a 2 to 3 star alignment afterwards I'll be fine.
For a beginner it's a little tough, the manual sais so, the seller so and the community even differently. For myself the green rings didn't make sence so I balanced the scope used the handpiece to turn it 90 degrees exactly and then taped these triangular post-its which are ment for signing documents to the mount and now its easy to return to home. For Polar Alignment I bought an iPolar which kind of annoyed me at first but when I first used it, it was amazing.

So thank you all for your input and all the posts to help a beginner

After having the telescope for about a month now, today was the first time there weren't any clouds so I finally was able to set it up and use it for the first time.

I balanced it, northed it, polar aligned it but I wasn't able to star-align it. I used different stars like Beteigeuze, Aldebaran and Alnilam but whereever the mount went to, I wasn't able to find the correct star. The direction was quite right from what I could tell roughly.

I have a 5mm, 12mm and 28mm ocular which were suggested by the seller. I used the 28mm so I'd have the widest field of view. I tried for 2 hours to find some bright star in the field of view but always failed. I told it to show me Jupiter, it went in the correct direction but was off, I couldnt find it.

I used an app to figure out what I was seeing and where to move too, but that was to tough, I never found the stars in the app I saw in the telescope.

I haven't got any idea, what I am doing wrong. Is the ocular wrong? Any advice?

Many thanks and have a nice weekend!

Dan

[bosun21]

After polar alignment I select the first star in the alignment process and after the mount stops slewing to its position near the target star I use a red dot finder to move the mount and place it in the eyepiece. Once you centre it then select the second star and it should be in the FOV of your 28mm eyepiece.

[Fir Chlis]

Try these videos on YouTube - a series on how to set up this mount. 

EDIT: I just realised that you seem to have sorted polar alignment. 

Geoff

And this one on polar alignment  

 

Edited March 9 by Fir Chlis

[Obsi]

10 hours ago, bosun21 said:

I use a red dot finder to move the mount and place it in the eyepiece.

What is a red dot finder?

Thanks for the tutorials!
Edit: I already watched this tutorial 😉 the procedure is clear, but I couldn't find any of the stars. The basic direction was right but the field of view seems to be so narrow, that I wonder all over the area but didn't get a lucky shot on finding it. I expect it to be clear when like Beteigeuze comes into view? So far I only saw small white dots and 7 satelites.

Edited March 9 by Obsi

[wookie1965]

2 hours ago, Obsi said:

What is a red dot finder?

Thanks for the tutorials!
Edit: I already watched this tutorial 😉 the procedure is clear, but I couldn't find any of the stars. The basic direction was right but the field of view seems to be so narrow, that I wonder all over the area but didn't get a lucky shot on finding it. I expect it to be clear when like Beteigeuze comes into view? So far I only saw small white dots and 7 satelites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xicM5krg4nM

Many people use a Telrad similar to a red dot finder, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAkIgnPABhg  Hope that helps.

 

[M40]

The red dot finder is,  imo, a bit of an essential. I have three types but this is the one I prefer.... https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/astro-essentials-red-dot-finder.html

It needs aligning with your telescope, wookie1965 videos give a few clues. Basically, during day time, find a distant point, center it in your telescope eyepiece then center the finder cross hairs. It will be out when you look at stars but it will be close. At night, set your telescope and mount up as normal, goto your first alignment star which will be out, then use the finder to get closer to the star, this hopefully will put it in the fov of your eyepiece. Center the star in your eyepiece then center the finder. 

I tend to leave the finder in place at end of play so it's ready for next time, but being clumsy, I manage to knock it so have to do it again anyway. All the best.

[Cosmic Geoff]

I have a slightly different take on this as I have a EQ-5 Synscan mount permanently set up on a pillar. 

The setting circles: Purely ornamental. Total waste of time. ignore them.

Mechanical polar align: get Polaris near the middle of the field of view in the polarscope. Scope horizontal. (I can't get my head around the instructions for aiming more accurately).  Check that the finder (a red dot) is pointing close to Polaris. 

Electronic alignment (or re-align): Start with the scope in the start (or park) position with scope above mount pointing to pole, and counterweight down, to North.  Follow the handset instructions for 2-star align, it should slew to near the first alignment star, centre with red dot finder, then scope. Repeat for second star.  When done, if you have recent software, you should get a prompt to fine tune the mechanical adjustment (probably not easy to follow).

At end of session, command the mount to Park, and remove the power.  

At beginning of next session, command the mount to start from Park position. No more aligning!

If perfectly set up, the GoTo performance of the mount should be quite good, but in practice I found the all-sky GoTo performance of mine to be awful, and I rely on Plate-Solve and resync in Sharpcap to find anything.

You query what is a red-dot finder?  It projects a red dot (or circle) against the night sky.  If you don't have a finder (either red-dot or optical) you will find aligning the mount to be extremely difficult. 

[LandyJon]

Indeed, you need a finder scope of some sort ...

Mine have cameras in there rather than eyepieces, but the small white scope (or a red dot) you'd use once aligned with the main scope to find the star you want, then looking through the main scope it shouldn't be too far out of your view, hopefully in it but if not you may see some glow that'll indicate which way you need to move.

My main reason for comment tho ...

Have you got your location set properly in the synscan handset ? using the right format, ie. decimal or deg:min:sec ... to be honest I forget, its been that long, software does it all for imaging so I haven't used the handset in a long time, but if your location is off your goto and star aligns will all be off.

Just a thought.