Desperate! Please give your insight

[Vinnyvent84]

Hello all! I am finding my head spinning on what direction to go in when it comes to going EAA with my current equipment vs the software needed to control and then edit the images I get. I have REALLY tried reading up on any articles I could find, threads on cloudy nights as well as stargazers lounge and whatever YouTube videos I could find. All where helpful no doubt but often the more information I get it seems the harder it becomes for me to make a decision on how to move forward. 

I live in a Brooklyn, NY (Bortle 8-9) and plan to do most of my work from my yard and possibly a nearby park. I do plan to travel with scope moreso in the spring and summer months if I can but the main point is 85% or more of the time will likely be used right here at home. 

I have the following: 

- Nexstar 6SE with Alt/Az Go-to mount

- StarSense Auto Align (has worked flawless for me so far)

- Celestron WiFi Module 

I only have the scope about a month but for the days weather permitted I loved using it for visual and will continue to do so. I seamlessly connect and control my scope with SkySafari 7 and it has been an easily and seamless process! But Im really interested in doing Planetary Imaging with EAA and have landed on buying a ZWO ASI678MC in the very near future to do this. 

Before I take the plunge this is what’s driving me nuts: I am BRAND new at this, the learning curve is steep and I am currently knee deep in the Apple / Mac ecosystem. I love the idea of “push the easy button” offerings of ZWO ASIair plus and can use my iPad to do the control and capturing of images from what I understand. It takes a big lift off the learning curve (apparently) and plays nice with Apple products. However, from what I understand it would render my SSAA and Celestron WiFi module useless meaning I would have to sell them. If I ever want to use a mechanical focuser it has to be ZWO and they don’t make one for the 6SE (I noticed they make aftermarket products to retrofit one, seems a bit scary for me but not terribly so). I would then have to use the ZWO ASI120 I was gifted by a friend to do plate solving / go-to rather then my SSAA. 

BUT! Everything I read here points you in the direction of Sharpcap for Planetary Imaging, most of what I read says it’s so easy to use but the screenshots I’ve seen tend to give me the impression it’s more of the old school look and feel programs and ALOT of the lingo people throw around when it comes to having to tinker with settings seems daunting and maybe it’s easy to others since they have been doing it so long. However, if I go this route I can use all my equipment and not have to sell anything and would just need to pickup a cheap / used (but capable) windows based laptop and from what I can tell that would likely be beneficial when it comes to post processing anyway and the game for this software really is centered in a windows world. 

Either scenario involves some additional spending whether it be a ASIair Plus or windows based laptop which doesn’t overly concern me but I just don’t want to spend “in the wrong direction” and regret it later. 

I want to go the easier route which seems ASIair plus but I’m afraid it won’t allow me to do / learn post processing because from what I understand it doesn’t save subs? Will it now allow for as good quality images as Sharpcap? I don’t want to get myself in a position where a hobby I’m really interested in and want to pursue becomes so daunting that it turns into more of a frustration then enjoyment. I’m thinking baby steps to get myself better understanding in all this is better but to all of you I digress. Would you all please provide your opinion / direction that you would do if in my shoes? Again, I thank all you here for your valuable experience and insight!

 

Edited January 13 by Cornelius Varley
text colour corrected

[StevieDvd]

I'm not sure exactly why you think the ASIAir does not save files for post processing, as it's quite popular with astro imagers like myself.  Perhaps it's down to the EAA definitions on CN.

Astro imaging sessions on the ASIAir can be viewed as they stack,  sort of EAA in my opinion. The fits files (lights) are saved to the ASIAir for further processing and via the planning section you can do the darks and flats the same way and download them all for post processing.

There is an EAF focus motor for the bigger Celestron scopes which may fit the Nexstar but you'd need too check the dimensions of the bracket and the fitting holes.

 

[Vinnyvent84]

23 minutes ago, StevieDvd said:

I'm not sure exactly why you think the ASIAir does not save files for post processing, as it's quite popular with astro imagers like myself.  Perhaps it's down to the EAA definitions on CN.

Astro imaging sessions on the ASIAir can be viewed as they stack,  sort of EAA in my opinion. The fits files (lights) are saved to the ASIAir for further processing and via the planning section you can do the darks and flats the same way and download them all for post processing.

There is an EAF focus motor for the bigger Celestron scopes which may fit the Nexstar but you'd need too check the dimensions of the bracket and the fitting holes.

 

That’s good to know and thank you for clarifying. So in your perspective I take it since you are a user of it you suggest going the ASI Air plus route over sharpcap? If so is it due to the ease of it and less “tinkering”? Do you feel you loose anything by not going sharpcap route?

[chopples]

Hi 

Do you have a MacBook? There is decent software available for planetary capture, eg firecapture and asistudio.

As a total beginner I am not sure how an asiair will take the lift of the learning curve tbh, unless you mean plate solving and centre? the fov with a 6se and a 678 is 0.29x0.17 so I am not even sure how reliable that would be. Also you still have to connect the equipment and configure it, same as you would with a laptop.  You also have to make the decision on how to capture. Honestly I think you would be better served keeping it simple. align as you do now, centre the planet in the  eyepiece, switch  to a camera connected to your mac, refocus using the planet details or moons for a guide and capture.

In terms of best settings for capture then Youtube has many videos on this but the aim is to capture as many frames as possible before you have to stop due to the planets rotation.

 

[PeterC65]

You mention wanting to do EAA, so near instant results on the night, and you mention wanting to do planetary. The only software that does a good job of planetary EAA is SharpCap, because it has a brand new feature which will live stack lunar and planetary images. Live stacking normally uses stars for alignment and that's not previously been possible with lunar and planetary observation, and as far as I'm aware, still isn't possible with anything other than SharpCap. Without live stacking the best you can do is observe the live video which is no better than using an eyepiece in my opinion.

Here is an example of a live video capture of Jupiter ...

 

and here is the same footage using SharpCap live planetary stacking ...

I used an 8" Newtonian and an IMX585 camera with a x2.4 Barlow to capture this.

While the SharpCap live lunar and planetary stacking is a new feature, it is such a game changer that lots of us are testing it, and it works reliably, both for whole discs and partial lunar discs.

As @StevieDvd has mentioned, the ASIAir can be used for AP and EAA, but I would say that ShapCap is the more popular option for EAA as it offers more EAA features and flexibility (you're not limited to ZWO products). You may think that the SharpCap software is old school, it doesn't have the cutting edge GUI look and feel, but it is very well written and is exceptionally well supported (you can actually speak with its author, and he will make bug fixes, sometimes within days).

Whatever you use, you could continue to control your mount from SkySafari and just use SharpCap or ASIAir for the camera control and live stacking. With SharpCap (I don't know about ASIAir) you could still plate solve and annotate your images to show what you are looking at, but you wouldn't be able to re-sync the mount (which I do find useful).

The NexStar 6SE (F10) is a good match for the ASI678MC (2um pixel size) when used for planetary, but that combination will not be good for DSOs. For observing DSOs you will want a faster scope, so maybe add the x0.63 reducer, and even with this you will be oversampling. That's not a huge problem and you could always 2x2 bin to increase your effective pixel size (the camera is 4K so you'd still be operating at full HD).

 

[Vinnyvent84]

22 minutes ago, chopples said:

Hi 

Do you have a MacBook? There is decent software available for planetary capture, eg firecapture and asistudio.

As a total beginner I am not sure how an asiair will take the lift of the learning curve tbh, unless you mean plate solving and centre? the fov with a 6se and a 678 is 0.29x0.17 so I am not even sure how reliable that would be. Also you still have to connect the equipment and configure it, same as you would with a laptop.  You also have to make the decision on how to capture. Honestly I think you would be better served keeping it simple. align as you do now, centre the planet in the  eyepiece, switch  to a camera connected to your mac, refocus using the planet details or moons for a guide and capture.

In terms of best settings for capture then Youtube has many videos on this but the aim is to capture as many frames as possible before you have to stop due to the planets rotation.

 

Thanks Chopples! I actually use the StarSense Auto Align to plate solve when I first start the scope. The 678 I will likely pick up to do planetary and lunar images. 
 

I do have an M1 Pro Max MacBook Pro 14inch and saw those programs you mentioned. Firecapture is definitely mentioned often and I’m sure no slouch but I believe Sharpcap seems the gold standard. And honestly I would rather be brining out a more affordable dedicated windows laptop to use just for this purpose then my much more expensive MacBook Pro. 
 

I appreciate the keeping it simple part and believe me that’s my goal. I just want to make sure I’m pointed in the right direction with the right software so I don’t realize months down the line I should have went in “X” direction instead and could have had much more knowledge and experience in with that course - if I’m making any sense lol

[Elp]

Why don't you try whatever is free first with the equipment you have? Then you'll get an idea of what works and what doesn't. Software is only a means to an end at the end of the day, whether you get on with it will be down to your own personal experience. Firecapture works fine, as does OAcapture both of which are included within astroberry which runs on a raspberry pi. Some software is open source and has been ported to run on multiple platforms.

For me, I didn't want a computer outside so went the rpi, then asiair route. The air isn't ideal for planetary as you don't have the precision options you do with dedicated software, you only have pre set region on interest options, and can only adjust the white balance I think, exposure and can only record video. I prefer my rpi option where I can record fast image files instead, have precise micro and millisecond exposure control, custom ROI settings among other things.

For EAA, the airs live mode works fine, and I use the air for all my DSO work across multiple setups.

For planetary you'd then need to learn autostakkert or registax or both to post process your planetary images.

For DSO youd need a multitude as usually not one software does it all from DSS/Siril/Pixinsight/Photoshop/Gimp/Affinity.

Edited January 13 by Elp

[Vinnyvent84]

20 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

You mention wanting to do EAA, so near instant results on the night, and you mention wanting to do planetary. The only software that does a good job of planetary EAA is SharpCap, because it has a brand new feature which will live stack lunar and planetary images. Live stacking normally uses stars for alignment and that's not previously been possible with lunar and planetary observation, and as far as I'm aware, still isn't possible with anything other than SharpCap. Without live stacking the best you can do is observe the live video which is no better than using an eyepiece in my opinion.

Here is an example of a live video capture of Jupiter ...

 

 

and here is the same footage using SharpCap live planetary stacking ...

I used an 8" Newtonian and an IMX585 camera with a x2.4 Barlow to capture this.

While the SharpCap live lunar and planetary stacking is a new feature, it is such a game changer that lots of us are testing it, and it works reliably, both for whole discs and partial lunar discs.

As @StevieDvd has mentioned, the ASIAir can be used for AP and EAA, but I would say that ShapCap is the more popular option for EAA as it offers more EAA features and flexibility (you're not limited to ZWO products). You may think that the SharpCap software is old school, it doesn't have the cutting edge GUI look and feel, but it is very well written and is exceptionally well supported (you can actually speak with its author, and he will make bug fixes, sometimes within days).

Whatever you use, you could continue to control your mount from SkySafari and just use SharpCap or ASIAir for the camera control and live stacking. With SharpCap (I don't know about ASIAir) you could still plate solve and annotate your images to show what you are looking at, but you wouldn't be able to re-sync the mount (which I do find useful).

The NexStar 6SE (F10) is a good match for the ASI678MC (2um pixel size) when used for planetary, but that combination will not be good for DSOs. For observing DSOs you will want a faster scope, so maybe add the x0.63 reducer, and even with this you will be oversampling. That's not a huge problem and you could always 2x2 bin to increase your effective pixel size (the camera is 4K so you'd still be operating at full HD).

 

Thanks for the robust response Peter! I actually did not know I could use SkySafari for mount control and alignment while also using Sharpcap for camera control and live stacking. I thought it was a choice of going all in on one direction vs the other. 
 

as for the camera I was so stuck for weeks. Honestly I’m still at 90% sure for the 678 but I was debating the 224 as it’s so popular and slightly higher FPS which is better for lunar and planetary. Ultimately I felt the bigger Fov, new tech and no Amp glow outweighed it but the choices are so numerous between 150-500 (my budget) that it’s daunting! I would love to do some DSO experimenting and I read you can “dabble” in it with that camera but due to my high light pollution and generally crappy seeing conditions I figured staying in lunar and planetary would probably be best for now especially as a beginner. 

[chopples]

13 minutes ago, Vinnyvent84 said:

Thanks for the robust response Peter! I actually did not know I could use SkySafari for mount control and alignment while also using Sharpcap for camera control and live stacking. I thought it was a choice of going all in on one direction vs the other. 

Celestron have their own windows software which allows all this too, whilst I do have an asiair, for planetary I much prefer to use a windows 10 converted Chromebook. I have that plugged in with the scope and then remote indoors where it is warm via a MacBook(I also have the celestron focuser), I typically use sharpcap for capture. But this is all getting ahead of ourselves. None of this is necessary  @Elp explains it best.

For camera I would probably go with the 678. I do have a 224mc and it's a great little camera but the tiny fov can sometimes make things difficult. If you do decide to attempt some dso eaa I think the 678 would be less frustrating but If you do decide to go down this road I would also recommend the 0.63 reducer

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13 by chopples

[Vinnyvent84]

16 minutes ago, Elp said:

Why don't you try whatever is free first with the equipment you have? Then you'll get an idea of what works and what doesn't. Software is only a means to an end at the end of the day, whether you get on with it will be down to your own personal experience. Firecapture works fine, as does OAcapture both of which are included within astroberry which runs on a raspberry pi. Some software is open source and has been ported to run on multiple platforms.

For me, I didn't want a computer outside so went the rpi, then asiair route. The air isn't ideal for planetary as you don't have the precision options you do with dedicated software, you only have pre set region on interest options, and can only adjust the white balance I think, exposure and can only record video. I prefer my rpi option where I can record fast image files instead, have precise micro and millisecond exposure control, custom ROI settings among other things.

For EAA, the airs live mode works fine, and I use the air for all my DSO work across multiple setups.

For planetary you'd then need to learn autostakkert or registax or both to post process your planetary images.

For DSO youd need a multitude as usually not one software does it all from DSS/Siril/Pixinsight/Photoshop/Gimp/Affinity.

Thank you Elp, sound advice indeed. I think I will go the route of the laptop I mentioned earlier as yes there are Mac options out there but I also feel it’s a compromise game when you go that route and can often require work arounds. I invested a decent nut into this so just getting a dedicated windows laptop that will last me at least a few years and allow me to run Sharpcap and other post processing software natively is probably best. And Sharpcap all though not totally free is 15 bucks for a year so not the end of the world 

[Vinnyvent84]

4 minutes ago, chopples said:

Celestron have their own windows software which allows all this too, whilst I do have an asiair for planetary I much prefer to use a windows 10 converted Chromebook. I have that plugged in with the scope and then remote indoors where it is warm via a MacBook(I also have the celestron focuser), I typically use sharpcap for capture. But this is all getting ahead of ourselves. None of this is necessary  @Elp explains it best.

For camera I would probably go with the 678. I do have a 224mc and it's a great little camera but the tiny fov can sometimes make things difficult. If you do decide to attempt some dso eaa I think the 678 would be less frustrating but If you do decide to go down this road I would also recommend the 0.63 reducer

 

 

 

 

Thanks Chopples - I feel better about going the 678 route now as well. I also already have the reducer as well. I never even thought about remoting in from your Mac. Mind if I ask what you use to do that?

[PeterC65]

2 minutes ago, Vinnyvent84 said:

as for the camera I was so stuck for weeks. Honestly I’m still at 90% sure for the 678 but I was debating the 224 as it’s so popular and slightly higher FPS which is better for lunar and planetary. Ultimately I felt the bigger Fov, new tech and no Amp glow outweighed it but the choices are so numerous between 150-500 (my budget) that it’s daunting! I would love to do some DSO experimenting and I read you can “dabble” in it with that camera but due to my high light pollution and generally crappy seeing conditions I figured staying in lunar and planetary would probably be best for now especially as a beginner. 

The IMX678 is a very good choice for planetary, and if you get a x0.63 reducer and 2x2 bin, it will be fine for DSOs too.

I wouldn't rule out observing DSOs, even from a light polluted location. EAA makes all things much more visible. The downside of the IMX678, particularly when used with the NexStar 6SE, even with the reducer, is that it has a relatively small sensor which means a small field of view. So you'd be limited to the smaller DSOs, smaller than about 20' in size (M1, M51). An IMX585 would be a bit better for DSOs, but not so good for planetary, and really you'd be better with a shorter focal length scope.

 

[Elp]

NINA is free, no harm in trying it. Not sure if it does planetary though.

Another camera option is the 585. I had the earlier 485 and it was an excellent planetary and DSO camera, though for DSO I think the colour saturation of stars suffered a bit as it's full well depth isn't that high. Because I had other dso OSC options, I decided to sell the 485 as I already have the 224. 224 has fast FPS as it's resolution is smaller, and it is strictly a planetary and guiding camera though I've seen people do excellent DSO with it, because the 224 sensor is so small the amp glow saturates the pixels quickly which is not good for DSO work, on larger sensors like my 183 which is notorious for amp glow it's a non issue as the sensor is larger and the amp glow is only from one side.

Edited January 13 by Elp

[chopples]

5 minutes ago, Vinnyvent84 said:

Thanks Chopples - I feel better about going the 678 route now as well. I also already have the reducer as well. I never even thought about remoting in from your Mac. Mind if I ask what you use to do that?

Sure, I just use the Microsoft Remote Desktop app available on the App Store. Caveat being the laptop needs to be running at least the "pro" version of windows

[Cosmic Geoff]

I have a C8 SE, so can advise you that while it is good for visual use, it is not so good for imaging. You can do planetary imaging with it, as I did using a planetary camera (ASI 120 MC and then ASI224MC), and a used business laptop running Sharpcap on Windows, but the mount made it a bit of a pain and I later bought another scope with a more substantial mount, to use for planetary imaging.  (Note there is no need to use an Asiair or other fancy stuff).

As for EAA or deep space imaging, the deficiencies of the mount convinced me that it wasn't even worth trying.  If you want to do either, I recommend that you buy some other kit more suited to the purpose.   I have a 102mm f5 refractor and a EQ-5 Synscan mount that I use for EAA and some basic deep space imaging, along with a laptop and Sharpcap.  NINA and similar software suites are only advantageous for serious deep-space imaging. 

[Elp]

10 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

C8 SE

Was it down to the seeing or the tracking of the standard mount. The bundled mount is alt az so unless you're using a Hyperstar lens, long exposure DSO imaging is next to impossible, but EAA should be fine as long as the short exposures don't star trail. With an EQ mount F6.3 imaging and Hyperstar imaging is fine, but once you do the latter you'll very rarely image DSO any slower unless you want the resolution gain from the longer focal length.

EAA DSO is far more forgiving than doing long exposure imaging.

 

Edited January 13 by Elp

[chopples]

The mount is  better suited for the 6, my mate has the 8 and it can be prone to wobble, especially when focusing. 

[Cosmic Geoff]

32 minutes ago, Elp said:

Was it down to the seeing or the tracking of the standard mount. The bundled mount is alt az so unless you're using a Hyperstar lens, long exposure DSO imaging is next to impossible, but EAA should be fine as long as the short exposures don't star trail. With an EQ mount F6.3 imaging and Hyperstar imaging is fine, but once you do the latter you'll very rarely image DSO any slower unless you want the resolution gain from the longer focal length.

C8 SE: The altitude control was not very good, with a tendency to overshoot.  Acceptable for visual use, but  it wasn't capable of doing more than keeping a planet on the cropped sensor with some use of the handset when taking a short video, while watching the laptop display.  As I noted above, a pain.  The CPC800 and EQ-5 Synscan perform far better.

With a f10 telescope, f6.3 reducer and a smaller sensor, the small-ish field of view that results mostly limits you to doing EAA of smaller objects like planetary nebulae or globular clusters, and you also need a decent mount that will track well for exposures of 20 secs or so.

Edited January 13 by Cosmic Geoff

[Elp]

I sometimes get similar with my C6 and azgti except it's the opposite, it's slow to keep up with the planets drift like there's a delay or something.

[Vinnyvent84]

1 hour ago, PeterC65 said:

The IMX678 is a very good choice for planetary, and if you get a x0.63 reducer and 2x2 bin, it will be fine for DSOs too.

I wouldn't rule out observing DSOs, even from a light polluted location. EAA makes all things much more visible. The downside of the IMX678, particularly when used with the NexStar 6SE, even with the reducer, is that it has a relatively small sensor which means a small field of view. So you'd be limited to the smaller DSOs, smaller than about 20' in size (M1, M51). An IMX585 would be a bit better for DSOs, but not so good for planetary, and really you'd be better with a shorter focal length scope.

 

Thank you Peter! If I may ask, again sorry I’m new - what you mean by 2x2 bin?

[PeterC65]

25 minutes ago, Vinnyvent84 said:

Thank you Peter! If I may ask, again sorry I’m new - what you mean by 2x2 bin?

2x2 binning is when the software combines four pixels in a square to make one larger pixel. It doubles the pixel size but halves the resolution, so with the IMX678 you get 4um pixels at full HD resolution. Larger pixels may be needed for getting the sampling right (see this tool) and being larger they pick up more photons so increase the cameras sensitivity. And if you're using a 4K camera then halving the resolution isn't a great loss.

Some cameras can do the binning but I find its more reliable to do it in software (SharpCap). You can do 3x3 and 4x4 binning too.

 

[Vinnyvent84]

1 hour ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

C8 SE: The altitude control was not very good, with a tendency to overshoot.  Acceptable for visual use, but  it wasn't capable of doing more than keeping a planet on the cropped sensor with some use of the handset when taking a short video, while watching the laptop display.  As I noted above, a pain.  The CPC800 and EQ-5 Synscan perform far better.

With a f10 telescope, f6.3 reducer and a smaller sensor, the small-ish field of view that results mostly limits you to doing EAA of smaller objects like planetary nebulae or globular clusters, and you also need a decent mount that will track well for exposures of 20 secs or so.

Sheesh I’m starting to feel like maybe I made a big mistake in my purchase of that telescope 😟

[Vinnyvent84]

25 minutes ago, PeterC65 said:

2x2 binning is when the software combines four pixels in a square to make one larger pixel. It doubles the pixel size but halves the resolution, so with the IMX678 you get 4um pixels at full HD resolution. Larger pixels may be needed for getting the sampling right (see this tool) and being larger they pick up more photons so increase the cameras sensitivity. And if you're using a 4K camera then halving the resolution isn't a great loss.

Some cameras can do the binning but I find its more reliable to do it in software (SharpCap). You can do 3x3 and 4x4 binning too.

 

Thanks for explaining Peter! lol now I’m just nervous that I got a subpar scope & mount that doesn’t seem capable of much 🤯

[PeterC65]

1 minute ago, Vinnyvent84 said:

Thanks for explaining Peter! lol now I’m just nervous that I got a subpar scope & mount that doesn’t seem capable of much 🤯

I would try EAA with the scope and mount that you have. The ASI678MC is a good choice of camera so you will not be wasting your money there, and you said you have a x0.63 reducer so you can have a go at lunar, planetary, and DSOs.

 

[chopples]

12 minutes ago, Vinnyvent84 said:

Sheesh I’m starting to feel like maybe I made a big mistake in my purchase of that telescope 😟

The 8se is about 2 kilo heavier than the 6se and they both use the exact same mount, honestly I wouldn't worry, for eaa it will be fine

Edited January 13 by chopples