New Planetary color camera advice

[TareqPhoto]

Hi,

I am thinking about buying a new camera for planetary with so many models hitting the markets since few years ago now, i have 6 cameras so far for that [1 is damaged and one is a mini design for guiding only] and they are all great for sure, but to keep myself updated a bit i am thinking about one more to add, and for this one i am thinking about those things for choice:

1. Color, i have two mono so no plan for more as i will buy third mono but for solar [and maybe lunar too]

2. It has 2.9um pixel size, i want to image in focal ratio range of f/12 up to f/20 maybe, and i feel that 2.9um is a good middle solution, i have one color camera with 3.75um already, but 2.9um mono [ASI290MM] so i want a color.

3. It has small sensor, so this will help for planets to be more cropped and centered for better ROI or FPS, i don't want to have larger sensor and do heavy ROI and crop after

4. High QE if that can help for anything, just to have a bit cleaner results if i use high gain

 

The scopes i am going to use mostly for planets will be either existing ones i have such as SW 180 Mak or 8" f/5 Newt or something new in future either 14" newt or 20" Newt which they have something like f/4-f/4.6 focal ratio, and i have 2x/5x Powermate and i can add 4x later if it is necessary really, so i want to keep it like f/10-f/24 maximum, but if i buy that 20" f/something maybe 4 then with 4x/5x i will be at f/16-f/20 and i believe that 2.9um should be a great match.

 

Cameras for planetary i have so far including the damaged and guiding:

- QHY5L-II-M [Guiding]

- ZWO ASI120MC [Damaged because i forced it into powered USB3.0 hub and it fried inside something, it is only USB2.0 camera]

- ASI385MC my beloved camera for planetary and moon in colors, was a replacement for that above 120MC damaged in very short time, could be a nice bad luck

- ASI290MM perfect for mono planetary things with certain scopes

- ASI178MC giving me wider FOV of the moon in color

-ASI174MM a superior camera in mono for solar and lunar, my favorite mono so far 

[sorrimen]

ASI462 has a 2.9um pixel size and is a fantastic planetary camera. Not sure what your point about the sensor is, as you’ll always use an ROI that fits the planet for highest FPS so it doesn’t matter if you have the largest sensor in the world or one the exact same size as your ROI!

[nfotis]

Note that the ASI462 has been superseded by the ASI662. The newer sensor looks quite improved, if I remember correctly.

N.F.

[TareqPhoto]

1 hour ago, sorrimen said:

ASI462 has a 2.9um pixel size and is a fantastic planetary camera. Not sure what your point about the sensor is, as you’ll always use an ROI that fits the planet for highest FPS so it doesn’t matter if you have the largest sensor in the world or one the exact same size as your ROI!

Good choice, it is in my Wishlist with other cameras too and i narrowed it down to two including this one.

About ROI, i really don't know, but sensor size could play for FPS, i mean i don't know if i have say 1" sensor and 1/2" sensor and i set both to same ROI i don't know if both cameras will give same FPS, when i looked at ZWO site for different cameras and then they mentioned FPS for different ROI i didn't see them being equal at same ROI of different cameras models.

[TareqPhoto]

40 minutes ago, nfotis said:

Note that the ASI462 has been superseded by the ASI662. The newer sensor looks quite improved, if I remember correctly.

N.F.

This is another one i also placed in my Wishlist and i narrowed it down to this and the predecessor ASI462MC, so it will be one of those two before those brands miss with us and bring another new model very soon or suddenly, i am more leaning towards 662 actually.

[newbie alert]

462 if imaging in IR or methane band

662 if imaging in the broadband range

[TareqPhoto]

4 hours ago, newbie alert said:

462 if imaging in IR or methane band

662 if imaging in the broadband range

I am not planning to use IR or Methane or UV with a color camera really, i have the mono for that.

[sorrimen]

No, quite right that FPS changes for different models but it’s not based on sensor size. The 462 and 662 have the same sensor size (actually 462 tiny bit bigger) but the 462 has quite significantly higher frames at smaller ROIs. At 640*480 it’s 305 vs 227, at 1280*720 it’s 205 vs 157. Certainly something to consider that even if you’re getting a bit more noise per frame you’re getting 14,000 more frames at 640*480 over a 3 minute period. 

The asi462 is particularly IR sensitive though, and its colour is tricky to get accurate. I’m yet to see very many reports on the 662 and the considerable increase in frame rate of the 462 makes me unsure whether it would truly be an improvement. Maybe you can buy it and give us a well needed review!

Edited October 12, 2022 by sorrimen

[Adam J]

12 hours ago, TareqPhoto said:

Hi,

I am thinking about buying a new camera for planetary with so many models hitting the markets since few years ago now, i have 6 cameras so far for that [1 is damaged and one is a mini design for guiding only] and they are all great for sure, but to keep myself updated a bit i am thinking about one more to add, and for this one i am thinking about those things for choice:

1. Color, i have two mono so no plan for more as i will buy third mono but for solar [and maybe lunar too]

2. It has 2.9um pixel size, i want to image in focal ratio range of f/12 up to f/20 maybe, and i feel that 2.9um is a good middle solution, i have one color camera with 3.75um already, but 2.9um mono [ASI290MM] so i want a color.

3. It has small sensor, so this will help for planets to be more cropped and centered for better ROI or FPS, i don't want to have larger sensor and do heavy ROI and crop after

4. High QE if that can help for anything, just to have a bit cleaner results if i use high gain

 

The scopes i am going to use mostly for planets will be either existing ones i have such as SW 180 Mak or 8" f/5 Newt or something new in future either 14" newt or 20" Newt which they have something like f/4-f/4.6 focal ratio, and i have 2x/5x Powermate and i can add 4x later if it is necessary really, so i want to keep it like f/10-f/24 maximum, but if i buy that 20" f/something maybe 4 then with 4x/5x i will be at f/16-f/20 and i believe that 2.9um should be a great match.

 

Cameras for planetary i have so far including the damaged and guiding:

- QHY5L-II-M [Guiding]

- ZWO ASI120MC [Damaged because i forced it into powered USB3.0 hub and it fried inside something, it is only USB2.0 camera]

- ASI385MC my beloved camera for planetary and moon in colors, was a replacement for that above 120MC damaged in very short time, could be a nice bad luck

- ASI290MM perfect for mono planetary things with certain scopes

- ASI178MC giving me wider FOV of the moon in color

-ASI174MM a superior camera in mono for solar and lunar, my favorite mono so far 

The 585 would replace the 178 and the 385 in my opinion. Good for planets and moon. 

Sell those and you will cover it's cost pretty much. 

Adam 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Adam J

[TareqPhoto]

9 hours ago, sorrimen said:

No, quite right that FPS changes for different models but it’s not based on sensor size. The 462 and 662 have the same sensor size (actually 462 tiny bit bigger) but the 462 has quite significantly higher frames at smaller ROIs. At 640*480 it’s 305 vs 227, at 1280*720 it’s 205 vs 157. Certainly something to consider that even if you’re getting a bit more noise per frame you’re getting 14,000 more frames at 640*480 over a 3 minute period. 

The asi462 is particularly IR sensitive though, and its colour is tricky to get accurate. I’m yet to see very many reports on the 662 and the considerable increase in frame rate of the 462 makes me unsure whether it would truly be an improvement. Maybe you can buy it and give us a well needed review!

I won't buy something and then i change my mind later, i want to buy and never look back.

There is two things, fps and other features or performances, so for example if that 462 has more FPS but it is an older model, maybe it is nice but less QE or HDR performance of that 662, so maybe i get less FPS with 662 but it is cleaner maybe, something like you lose something but gain something else that can put them almost equal, i just assume i don't know, mostly they shouldn't make a newer version if it isn't any improvement there even tiny, so i want to know what is the improvements or bonus in 662 model over 462 model, that can help a bit in final decision maybe.

[TareqPhoto]

8 hours ago, Adam J said:

The 585 would replace the 178 and the 385 in my opinion. Good for planets and moon. 

Sell those and you will cover it's cost pretty much. 

Adam 

I made the comparison between those three cameras from ZWO website, i really can't see that 585 is replacing ay of those two, maybe more replacing 178MC than 385MC, it is just having larger sensor, less fps than both, 12bit same as 385Mc while 178MC if 14bit, has AR window not same as 178MC, and it is 2.9um so almost in the middle, i can buy this separately for its own without sacrificing the other two, not expensive, but for now i want a color better model/version to that ASI290MM and i will be happy, later i can think about replace either 178MC or 385MC or both.

[sorrimen]

Yes I agree. The 462 has better fps and readout noise, but the 662 better qe and no amp glow. I can’t tell from numbers alone which will perform better; does a 35% increase in frames outweigh a 10% increase in qe or is it the other way around? It may even depend on your set up, seeing conditions, length of capture as well. The only real way is to try both cameras out, but there isn’t much material on the 662 yet so you’ll have to wait for someone to come along who’s tried both.

[TareqPhoto]

1 hour ago, sorrimen said:

Yes I agree. The 462 has better fps and readout noise, but the 662 better qe and no amp glow. I can’t tell from numbers alone which will perform better; does a 35% increase in frames outweigh a 10% increase in qe or is it the other way around? It may even depend on your set up, seeing conditions, length of capture as well. The only real way is to try both cameras out, but there isn’t much material on the 662 yet so you’ll have to wait for someone to come along who’s tried both.

I will wait until December only, otherwise it will be too late, because ZWO has that offers discounts by Christmas time, i bought 4 planetary cameras because of that, only one i bought during Mars Opposition offers, otherwise next year i have to see what else can be there or when/why to buy something.

Seeing here is not an issue, set up is also not an issue, length of capture also no issues 😂 I just have to pick a new model camera and ready to GOTO.

[newbie alert]

19 hours ago, TareqPhoto said:

4 hours ago, TareqPhoto said:

I will wait until December only, otherwise it will be too late, because ZWO has that offers discounts by Christmas time, i bought 4 planetary cameras because of that, only one i bought during Mars Opposition offers, otherwise next year i have to see what else can be there or when/why to buy something.

Seeing here is not an issue, set up is also not an issue, length of capture also no issues 😂 I just have to pick a new model camera and ready to GOTO.

 

You don't have to buy zwo..

[TareqPhoto]

20 hours ago, newbie alert said:

You don't have to buy zwo..

Actually i want to buy Player One model, but i use ZWO to give examples because mostly ZWO is using the sensor number as model from what i see ]IMX462 = ASI462MC, IMX294 = ASI294MC,...etc].

Again, it sounds the two choices i am more leaning towards are IMX462 and IMX662, 462 is already proven with examples and to be great, 662 is a new model with few results, but because it is a new model it could be a tad improvement to 462 who knows, if yes then 662 is the choice, and by December both cameras are cheaper from ZWO due to Christmas or maybe Player One if it is cheaper always, and if you said i don't have to buy ZWO then which/what brand?

[newbie alert]

2 hours ago, TareqPhoto said:

Actually i want to buy Player One model, but i use ZWO to give examples because mostly ZWO is using the sensor number as model from what i see ]IMX462 = ASI462MC, IMX294 = ASI294MC,...etc].

Again, it sounds the two choices i am more leaning towards are IMX462 and IMX662, 462 is already proven with examples and to be great, 662 is a new model with few results, but because it is a new model it could be a tad improvement to 462 who knows, if yes then 662 is the choice, and by December both cameras are cheaper from ZWO due to Christmas or maybe Player One if it is cheaper always, and if you said i don't have to buy ZWO then which/what brand?

If choosing a 462 then either a Qhy or a player one

If it's the 662 then the player one ( mars c 11)

I'd choose the 462 if doing methane band  or IR

I'd choose the 662 if doing broadband

Here are the QE curves from player one website

[TareqPhoto]

15 hours ago, newbie alert said:

If choosing a 462 then either a Qhy or a player one

If it's the 662 then the player one ( mars c 11)

I'd choose the 462 if doing methane band  or IR

I'd choose the 662 if doing broadband

Here are the QE curves from player one website

Sounds i will end up with the two cameras then, and i really like Player One designs here.

[TareqPhoto]

Hi again,

So last month i just ordered a ZWO camera but not for planetary, it is for solar, i chose ZWO because it has very slightly better discount [$10 less than Player One same model] and they included a tilt adapter for free, so it will allow me to use it with another ZWO cameras instead of built in individual tilt with P1 cameras, but now i don't mind to go with P1 for planetary.

I will try this year to buy a larger scope so i can use it for planetary, but i don't if i should use it at F8-F10 or F14-F16 or F20-F24, this will change the choice of a camera according to sampling, and i missed the discounts for this, but the discount was bigger for that solar camera i ordered.