Go with a good spotting scope or a telescope?

[NW_Gazer]

Hi All,

 

I'd like to consult with you all about the scope purchase selection....  not sure if anyone has ever in a similar "quandary" as me in terms of trying to deciding what to buy, but would love to hear any comments and expert's opinions about this....

 

So I want to get a good quality scope to start with - scope with great optical lens so that I can use it for long enough without need to update to a better scope after a short time which I have heard some folks saying that they regretted buying a "cheap" scope to start with and then finding it's not good enough for them after playing it for not too long, so, I want to just get a good one start with, and I have settled on either a spotting scope or a good refractor scope that has a "triplet" glass to get the best possible images in the given price range...

1. Vortex Optics Razor HD Spotting Scopes (Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J8Y4LWQ):  It has a triplet apochromatic lens combined with glass.
2. Orion EON 115mm ED Triplet Apochromatic Refractor Telescope (https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Orion-EON-115mm-ED-Triplet-Apochromatic-Refractor-Telescope/rc/2160/p/132684.uts):  It has a triplet glass as well

 

Both are similar in price.  The advantage of the spotting scope is that I can immediately use it as is from the delivery (other than adding a tripod), using it for terrestrial observation such as spotting ships in ocean or birds/owls in the backyard, as well as looking at the moon, and can also add an adapter to take photos with a phone or a DSLR camera.   However, I suspect that its clarity and magnification can't compare to that Orion telescope (with various eyepieces), and most likely won't be as sharp looking at the moon (or taking photos of the moon) compare to the telescope, but I don't know if this is true or not since I have not had the chance to actually compare them.  The "downside" of getting the telescope is that I'd have to buy eyepieces as well as special tripod, before I can actually use it, and also it's possible that the image in it is reversed (upside down) unless using the proper eyepiece, so that I can't use it for spotting to watch ships or owls, etc.  

 

If I'd like to use the scope for both terrestrial viewing as well as some basic astronomy viewing (moon and comets), would I better off getting the above spotting scope or the telescope, given their similar price and seemingly great optics on both of them?  If it were you, which option would you take?   

 

If anyone has compared similar priced spotting scope and telescope, or used one scope for both terrestrial viewing and moon gazing/photos, I'd love to hear your opinion!   Thank you all very much in advance for any comments and suggestions!  

 

Bill

 

 

 

[doublevodka]

I feel this one is going to turn into a bit of a can of worms but here goes.

In theory either would work with the right accessories, you can get diagonals which will correct the image for terrestrial viewing for the telescope etc. however you are going to need something decent to mount it on and that becomes even more important for astronomy as stability is really key, then you start the debate on features such as altaz or eq, goto or manual etc.

With that thought in your head, I'm going to throw in a curveball, what about observation binoculars? Something like this https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Orion-Monster-Mount-amp-25x100-Binocular-Kit/rc/2160/p/130923.uts

Complete with a parallelogram mount it could be used day or night, it's simple and would give good clarity on the targets you have mentioned

Some good general info on binos here - https://binocularsky.com/

Info on bino mounts here https://binocularsky.com/binoc_mount.php

 

[KP82]

The Orion 115mm triplet is a substantially larger instrument than the 85mm spotting scope you linked, and requires a heavy duty mount & tripod to support it properly. It can collect 83% more light and is more of a dedicated telescope. Wild life observation with it while possible with the right accessories is likely going to be quite cumbersome.

A closer alternative would be a 70 - 80mm refractor like this one: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/sky-watcher-evostar-72ed-ds-pro-ota.html. You will need an erecting prism or eyepiece to turn it into a spotting scope.

The fixed eyepiece of that Vortex spotting scope is going to limit your ability to view planets. If you prefer the ergonomics of a spotting scope, take a look at this one: https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/binoculars/spotting-scopes/apm-apo-85mm-spotting-scope.html

Personally I use my Altair 72EDF for both terrestrial and stargazing when travelling. It rides happily on the Scopetech Mount + photo tripod (or any other lightweight photo heads + tripod). I usually bring two diagonals with me, an erecting one and a normal star one. Combine them with a Baader zoom and a 2.25x barlow allow me to view a variety of targets without overtaxing the limited aperture of the scope.

 

[Alan64]

https://www.landseaskyco.com/takahashi-takahashi-fc-76ds-refractor-telescope.html

[Alan64]

A triplet-refractor is generally chosen for astrophotographic pursuits, with a camera and a go-to equatorial mount.  Triplets are also more delicate, more prone to mis-collimation over doublets, and are not usually user-serviceable if service is needed.  Triplets also tend to be front-heavy.  I'd take another look, a hard look, at that 76mm fluorite-doublet.  My Takahashi FS-102, from 2003, has been described as "mythical"...

[Alan64]

For upright, corrected images during the day with a refractor, an Amici-diagonal is used; for example...

https://agenaastro.com/baader-1-25-90-amici-prism-diagonal-amici-45-2956150.html

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @NW_Gazer and welcome to SGL. 

Have you considered a Maksutov? Depending on the brand, they can expensive. 

Below are some images of my Meade ETX105, albeit having a modified back after an accident that damaged two of three mounting points on the original plastic one that it is supplied/fitted with.

They are excellent lunar and planetary ‘scopes for visual use. Focal length for them is about f14. They can also be used for other outdoor activities/pursuits and take up very little storage space. For observing comets I prefer to use binoculars.

[etsatlo]

I was in your exact situation about a month ago. 

I initially went for a spotting scope after having had my fingers burnt with a rather naff Celestron FirstScope 114 Compact (of the infamous Bird-Jones family I was to later learn!). 

I chose it due to the reasons you listed above. However I found the fixed 45 degree viewing angle awkward and the 20-60x zoom range limiting. The moon just about filled the eyepiece at full zoom and Saturn was very tiny. Using a photo tripod was also difficult. As was finding the target. Though it could accommodate 1.25 inch eyepieces there was not enough focus travel to be able to use a 2x Barlow. 

Basically all of the problems that telescope designs have solved over the past few centuries!

I returned that and settled on a Sky Watcher 102 Mak AZ Pronto and could not be more thrilled. 

With the star diagonal it produces up-down correct images though left right inversed. You could of course use an erecting prism for daytime use so it's fully orientated correctly but the star diagonal is favoured for astronomy due to better light transmission. 

Hope that helps. All the best

[etsatlo]

1 hour ago, Philip R said:

Hi @NW_Gazer and welcome to SGL. 

Have you considered a Maksutov? Depending on the brand, they can expensive. 

Below are some images of my Meade ETX105, albeit having a modified back after an accident that damaged two of three mounting points on the original plastic one that it is supplied/fitted with.

They are excellent lunar and planetary ‘scopes for visual use. Focal length for them is about f14. They can also be used for other outdoor activities/pursuits and take up very little storage space. For observing comets I prefer to use binoculars.

Ah only saw your reply after clicking submit. 

+1 for a Maksutov!

[happy-kat]

A star diagonal uses a 90° angle for observing.

An erect image diagonal uses a 45° angle for observing.

These two different diagonal angles makes them easier for their intended use, either astronomy or terrestrial. Quick to swap in use.

You can also get an eyepiece zoom that covers for example 8-24mm giving that zoom use that might be more fluid for use. I haven't personally got a zoom eyepiece.

[Starwatcher2001]

Erect image diagonals can also be had in 90°.

eg: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/diagonals/william-optics-125-90-degree-erecting-prism.html

90° is certainly better than 45° for astronomy.

[Alan64]

A Maksutov is the closest that a reflector, utilising mirrors to form the images, may come to simulating the performance of a fine refractor, including the reduced need to collimate.  But when a Maksutov does require collimating, it can be the most daunting among all reflectors.

Then, you have a Maksutov's rather long focal-length, and the longest among all reflectors.  When paired with a manual mount, a larger optical-finder is most helpful, or a red-dot in a pinch.

My own 127/1900 Maksutov makes for an effective simulation of this 112mm f/18 achromat...

...yet within a short, compact tube...

Indeed, Maksutovs are used during the day, and for long-distance spotting.  At night, a Maksutov is like a microscope, but for the sky.

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi again @NW_Gazer and @etsatlo

Following on from my earlier posting/reply yesterday....

...a few more images above of my 're-modded' ETX105 and below showing the ETX to SCT adapter and 1.25" visual back. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Philip R

[ollypenrice]

Any astronomical telescope is always, and in itself, a mass of compromises. If you add to those the desire to combine spotting scope with astronomical, the compromises multiply and become intractable. The aperture advantage of 115mm over 85mm is very significant for astronomy but not for terrestrial.  An Amici prism will hardly degrade terrestrial images at all but will considerably degrade astronomical ones because stars are notoriously difficult targets for optics to control and because, in astronomy, edge contrasts are so extreme. The large size of an astronomical scope is a pest for terrestrial observing but a bonus for astronomical.

I've tried using a smaller astro refractor for terrestrial but have given it up in favour of a budget spotter.

As others have said, good doublet astro refractors may well beat average quality triplets in visual use. In astrophotography the colour correction into the shortest wavelengths picked up by the camera can require the triplet design but the human eye does not see as far into the violet end. With a doublet your budget goes onto fewer but better lenses.

Olly

[NW_Gazer]

Thank you all very much for all the comments and suggestions so far!   Lot's of great expert's advice, and I will need to take some time to study and digest them.  I'll post follow ups when I have more questions about these suggestions, but just want to post a thank-you note first to all of you who posted replies and made comments.  Appreciate all of your help and wisdom!