Henry With Mirror 1878

[Laurieast]

Do G H With mirrors have any value? 
I have a 9 3/4" Henry With mirror made in 1878, it does not have a finished optical surface, it is of ground glass appearance on the front, and inscribed on the back,  I know it was spherical and not parabolic. 
A museum perhaps?

[Louis D]

It would help immensely if you had any provenance papers for it.

[Laurieast]

1 minute ago, Louis D said:

It would help immensely if you had any provenance papers for it.

No, nothing, I bought the entire telescope with cast iron mount and clockwork drive from a farmer in Lancashire for £10 about forty years ago. 

[Louis D]

2 minutes ago, Laurieast said:

No, nothing, I bought the entire telescope with cast iron mount and clockwork drive from a farmer in Lancashire for £10 about forty years ago. 

And that farmer's probably dead by now, so no help there getting more history on it.

[Tiny Clanger]

27 minutes ago, Laurieast said:

Do G H With mirrors have any value? 
I have a 9 3/4" Henry With mirror made in 1878, it does not have a finished optical surface, it is of ground glass appearance on the front, and inscribed on the back,  I know it was spherical and not parabolic. 
A museum perhaps?

GH With gets a passing mention in the first paragraph on Geo. Calver here:

https://britastro.org/iandi/instrument-93.htm

and more info here  : http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/2QROVOrWRtWN63hv6RbMMg

[Laurieast]

3 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

GH With gets a passing mention in the first paragraph on Geo. Calver here:

https://britastro.org/iandi/instrument-93.htm

and more info here  : http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/2QROVOrWRtWN63hv6RbMMg

I'll take a read of those, thank you!

He is also mentioned in the Webb to Ranyard letters, ftp://ftp.ast.cam.ac.uk/pub/rwa/outgoing/ranyardcd/The Webb to Ranyard Letters Volume I.pdf

"George Henry With 1827-1904. Teacher, agricultural chemist and maker of silvered glass mirrors for reflector telescopes. From humble origins he qualified as a certificated teacher. In 1851 he was elected Headmaster of the boys Bluecoat charity school in Hereford where he remained for 25 years. He introduced elementary science to the curriculum. After his retirement he was employed by the Hereford Society for Aiding the Industrious as their agricultural chemist. In the 1860s and 1870s he produced over two hundred mirrors ranging from 3½ to 18 inch diameter. Obit MNRAS"

I never did find out why it was spherical and could not come to focus, the farmer had built a domed observatory for it.

 

[Tiny Clanger]

"Hereford Society for Aiding the Industrious " 🙂  Brilliant, you couldn't get a more Victorian sounding society name !

Heather

[Laurieast]

I found another of his mirror's on display at Herefordshire Museum, I have contacted them to see if they are interested in it.

https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/history-lives/museums-collections-search?Id=32371

HerefordshireHerefordshire

[Tiny Clanger]

If they want it, deliver it in person , Herefordshire is a lovely little county for a visit !

It has loads of great little towns & villages with old half timbered buildings, excellent walking, interesting geology and the cathedral is a cracker, I love the human scale , ground level statue of Elgar leaning on his bike.  I had a return visit planned last year , on my previous stay the weather was so good I was out walking to take advantage of it, so I didn't get to the little Violette Szabo museum as planned, neither did I need to exercise my rainy day option of several hours in the bookshops of Hay on Wye ...

Watch out for the SAS tho ...

[Laurieast]

1 minute ago, Tiny Clanger said:

If they want it, deliver it in person , Herefordshire is a lovely little county for a visit !

It has loads of great little towns & villages with old half timbered buildings, excellent walking, interesting geology and the cathedral is a cracker, I love the human scale , ground level statue of Elgar leaning on his bike.  I had a return visit planned last year , on my previous stay the weather was so good I was out walking to take advantage of it, so I didn't get to the little Violette Szabo museum as planned, neither did I need to exercise my rainy day option of several hours in the bookshops of Hay on Wye ...

Watch out for the SAS tho ...

 

Will do that, not keen on the idea of posting it, no matter how I wrap it up.

I have a cousin I go to stay with in Leamington Spa, so just an hour and a half drive over from there, I'm sure I can convince them it's a worthwile trip! (When we are allowed out again that is)

Will post on here if/when I hear from either the museum or the Bartonsham History Group.

[Tiny Clanger]

1 minute ago, Laurieast said:

 

Will do that, not keen on the idea of posting it, no matter how I wrap it up.

I have a cousin I go to stay with in Leamington Spa, so just an hour and a half drive over from there, I'm sure I can convince them it's a worthwile trip! (When we are allowed out again that is)

Will post on here if/when I hear from either the museum or the Bartonsham History Group.

Hope they are interested in the mirror.

Maybe 90 minutes is a bit optimistic for the trip from Leamington tho' , driving times within Herefordshire seem to take me around double what I'd expect throughout the rest of the midlands !

Heather

[markse68]

19 hours ago, Laurieast said:

No, nothing, I bought the entire telescope with cast iron mount and clockwork drive from a farmer in Lancashire for £10 about forty years ago. 

Do you still have the rest of the telescope? How was the mirror mounted? did it have an adjustable cell?

Mark

[Mark at Beaufort]

What a wonderful find. There has been a great deal of research surrounding George Henry With together with Rev Henry Cooper Key and Rev Thomas William Webb all of whom were in Herefordshire in the Victorian era.

If the Herefordshire Museum are not interested I can, via PM, let the author of the research contact you. Also, I am sure Bob Marriott could provide a great deal of information - see link - http://www.hamaldemon.com/

[Laurieast]

9 hours ago, markse68 said:

Do you still have the rest of the telescope? How was the mirror mounted? did it have an adjustable cell?

Mark

The cast mount and brass clockwork drive went to another astronomer, it was incredibly heavy, but fairly accurate for visual, but not good enough for astro photography.

The tube was four octagonal iron rings with 2x1"  wooden bars along the length, about 6ft, a heavy metal spider in one of the tube formers, and the cell was an octagonal piece of wood about an inch thick with three 3/4" bolts in threaded holes with springs for adjustment, there was a black machined steel mirror cell, with three shaped wooden mirror retainers. A brass R&P focuser.

I still have the tube rings, spider, R&P, and probably the cell, but it's a bit cold to go looking in the loft at the moment.

I have always wondered why it was left spherical, guess we will never know. On first set up I had a very bright image of Vega, and after trying for some time to get it to focus had to give up, very dissapointed and perplexed. I took it to a member of the local club and we did a focault test and determined it was spherical. 

Laurence

Edited February 6, 2021 by Laurieast
Mirror cell

[Laurieast]

3 hours ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

What a wonderful find. There has been a great deal of research surrounding George Henry With together with Rev Henry Cooper Key and Rev Thomas William Webb all of whom were in Herefordshire in the Victorian era.

If the Herefordshire Museum are not interested I can, via PM, let the author of the research contact you. Also, I am sure Bob Marriott could provide a great deal of information - see link - http://www.hamaldemon.com/

No reply from the museum yet, feel free to PM the auther of the research about this. 

Will take a proper read of Bob Marriott's pages tomorrow, thank you for the link!

Laurence

[Laurieast]

Enhanced the markings on the back, I can't make out what that says after G H With? and I can't remember what the characters at the bottom say, I do remember it was something religious.

The mirror weighs 3.4kg and the steel cell 4.6kg.

Not heard back from the museum or the historical society. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Laurieast

[Mark at Beaufort]

I have sent an email to my colleague asking his advice about the mirror etc

[Mark at Beaufort]

@LaurieastI have now had a reply from my colleague who undertook a great deal of research into these Victorian Astronomers.

Here is an exact from his email (some points were private and not related) - Hope this is useful. Let me know if you want me to do anything else.

Key & With began collaborating in 1862 ... GHW teamed up with John Browning in 1865, with a 6-inch silvered glass instrument displayed by them at the RAS soiree in 1866 Jan ... orders subsequently flowed for these telescopes. 

By 1868 GHW had produced 8 specula of 10-13-inch aperture, mostly to f/9 ... he later provided specula down to f/6.5 and apertures to 18-inch ...including refiguring one of HCK's in 1878.

GHW resigned his post at the Hereford Blue Coat boy's school in 1876 ... and later worked as an agricultural chemist..

 

Your enquirer has a spherical glass speculum which GHW probably intended to finish ... but in practice when HCK died at the end of 1879 he rather lost interest in producing specula ... and a decade later had sold all his equipment and ~100 unsold (finished) specula ... this particular example may have been ground by one of his children as he mostly concentrated on finishing optics ... using the graduated-tool method that he and HCK devised (they never used the Foucault test).

It might be of interest to Herefordshire Museum & Resource Centre ... as they have both the 18-inch BAA mirror (on permanent loan now) and also a 13-inch mirror (the Pontin-mirror) which was part-financed through the Webb-Share project ... it would illustrate an intermediary stage in the mirror-making process ... and of course began its life in Hereford.  

[mce]

On 09/02/2021 at 11:49, Laurieast said:

Enhanced the markings on the back, I can't make out what that says after G H With? and I can't remember what the characters at the bottom say, I do remember it was something religious.

It says "Doxa en Upsistois Theo" (which is googleable).

[Laurieast]

40 minutes ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

@LaurieastI have now had a reply from my colleague who undertook a great deal of research into these Victorian Astronomers.

Here is an exact from his email (some points were private and not related) - Hope this is useful. Let me know if you want me to do anything else.

Key & With began collaborating in 1862 ... GHW teamed up with John Browning in 1865, with a 6-inch silvered glass instrument displayed by them at the RAS soiree in 1866 Jan ... orders subsequently flowed for these telescopes. 

By 1868 GHW had produced 8 specula of 10-13-inch aperture, mostly to f/9 ... he later provided specula down to f/6.5 and apertures to 18-inch ...including refiguring one of HCK's in 1878.

GHW resigned his post at the Hereford Blue Coat boy's school in 1876 ... and later worked as an agricultural chemist..

 

Your enquirer has a spherical glass speculum which GHW probably intended to finish ... but in practice when HCK died at the end of 1879 he rather lost interest in producing specula ... and a decade later had sold all his equipment and ~100 unsold (finished) specula ... this particular example may have been ground by one of his children as he mostly concentrated on finishing optics ... using the graduated-tool method that he and HCK devised (they never used the Foucault test).

It might be of interest to Herefordshire Museum & Resource Centre ... as they have both the 18-inch BAA mirror (on permanent loan now) and also a 13-inch mirror (the Pontin-mirror) which was part-financed through the Webb-Share project ... it would illustrate an intermediary stage in the mirror-making process ... and of course began its life in Hereford.  

Thank you @Mark at Beaufort, and please thank your colleague for all the historic information, really interesting read.

I have now heard from the museum, and they would be most interested in acquiring it, I have let them know I will take it to them when we are allowed outside again after lockdown restrictions. 

Laurence

Edited February 10, 2021 by Laurieast

[mce]

2 hours ago, mce said:

It says "Doxa en Upsistois Theo" (which is googleable).

I just had another look at this, and of course there are some characters underneath the Greek which I hadn't really looked at.

I think they look like Hebrew, which I know nothing about, but with the aid of Wikipedia I would hazard a guess that they say "G H With". Of course, Hebrew reads from right to left.

The learned gentleman seems to have had a sense of humour.

Do please post more puzzles! These certainly beat lockdown crosswords.

[Laurieast]

4 minutes ago, mce said:

I just had another look at this, and of course there are some characters underneath the Greek which I hadn't really looked at.

I think they look like Hebrew, which I know nothing about, but with the aid of Wikipedia I would hazard a guess that they say "G H With". Of course, Hebrew reads from right to left.

The learned gentleman seems to have had a sense of humour.

Do please post more puzzles! These certainly beat lockdown crosswords.

Thank's for that, now all I need is somebody that speaks Hebrew. 

I do have another mirror of  6 3/4" diameter F10 , Given to me by L F Ball, but there are no markings on it. That one is perfectly figured and gave me superb views of the planets! I had one night with it when Saturn was just sitting there as if there where no atmosphere, amazing. 

[Laurieast]

@mce I think it might say "Gardener"  ?

https://doitinhebrew.com/Translate/default.aspx?kb=IL+Hebrew+Phonetic

גתנית

[mce]

28 minutes ago, Laurieast said:

@mce I think it might say "Gardener"  ?

https://doitinhebrew.com/Translate/default.aspx?kb=IL+Hebrew+Phonetic

גתנית

I think he is just substituting letters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet

Reading from the right, we have what seems to be the letter Gimel, for G. Then we have a dot. And then the letter He, for H. And then another dot. The next one is Vav, for V (nearest he could get to W), and then Yod, for I, and then Tav, for TH.

Q.E.D!