Horsehead and Flame

[smashing]

Hhhhmmm not sure on this one tbh...watched so many articles/videos on controlling the star bloat for this target and nothing seemed to do what I wanted so left it as is for the time being.

So approx. 5hrs of data captured over multiple nights with 5 minute subs using a modified Canon 600D, Equinox 80 on a HEQ5 mount from a B6 site, bias and flat frames applied. Most of the nights the moon was up which left me with some really really bad gradients which have probably made the processing job much harder than it needed to be but hey, the sky was clear! Got an L-extreme filter on the way so hopefully that will help somewhat.

I am really struggling with the noise on these images, but maybe I am asking too much from the equipment (must resist cooled camera!!!!). I'll add the stacked image in as well incase anyone wants to have a go.

 

 

Autosave028.tif

[Paul M]

I'm no imaging critic, at least not technically, but I will say that to my eye that is a very pleasant image. I'd go so far as to say that I'd be pleased to produce that image.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Paul M

[smashing]

11 minutes ago, Paul M said:

I'm no imaging critic, at least not technically, but I will say that to my eye that is a very pleasant image. I'd go so far as to say that I'd be pleased to produce that image.

Thanks! I have wanted to image this specific target for years. I am also massively happy to get the rig to do this consecutively each night considering at the start of last year when I jumped back into this I was using an illuminated crosshair eye piece to do all my alignments and a remote shutter release and a stopwatch for capture control!!

[geeklee]

34 minutes ago, smashing said:

I am really struggling with the noise on these images

That's a great capture and image @smashing 👍

I had a quick look at the stack you attached and it looks like it's got loads of detail too - albeit noisy as you mention.  I think the image above has lost some detail during noise reduction compared to the stack.  If you can take a step back in your processed image and lighten the noise reduction, you might bring that back.  A couple of examples (at 1:2) below with the fine detail in the flame nebula and the blue reflection beside the horse head.  None are processed just showing what's in the raw stack with an unlinked screen stretch (STF) in PixInsight.

Above:

Stack and stretch:
 

Above:

Stack and stretch:

Edited January 9, 2021 by geeklee

[Paul M]

Just for fun I played with the raw stack in PS. Mostly stretch and curves then used some of the Astronomy Tools actions (formerly Noel's Actions) which I installed last week. 

I couldn't replicate this if I tried. I just do stuff and either the image improves or I bin it and star again!

[smashing]

13 minutes ago, geeklee said:

That's a great capture and image @smashing 👍

I had a quick look at the stack you attached and it looks like it's got loads of detail too - albeit noisy as you mention.  I think the image above has lost some detail during noise reduction compared to the stack.  If you can take a step back in your processed image and lighten the noise reduction, you might bring that back.  A couple of examples (at 1:2) below with the fine detail in the flame nebula and the blue reflection beside the horse head.  None are processed just showing what's in the raw stack with an unlinked screen stretch (STF) in PixInsight.

Above:

Stack and stretch:
 

Above:

Stack and stretch:

Brilliant...I see what you mean I'll have a look at the workflow I have and see if I can dial it down a bit and try and bring some of it back.

[smashing]

1 minute ago, Paul M said:

Just for fun I played with the raw stack in PS. Mostly stretch and curves then used some of the Astronomy Tools actions (formerly Noel's Actions) which I installed last week. 

I couldn't replicate this if I tried. I just do stuff and either the image improves or I bin it and star again!

 

I do something very similar and have multiple, multiple variants of this...I have tried to ensure I don't just process on one layer and make a new one for big changes but sometime it gets all out of control so in the bin it goes and I open up the original stack again hahahaha

[rickwayne]

This image has definitely got it going on, as the kids say over here. (Well, the kids around 40 years old, anyway.) I  really like the detail you're getting in the Mountains. While the color is bold, I don't think it's too much, although more color in the stars would be nice. (Maybe starnet so you can put unstretched stars into the image?)

I  absolutely agree about the noise reduction, you've got the dreaded "plastic" look that's especially apparent in the Flame and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that if you back that off, the gradients and tonality in the Mountains will further improve too. Embrace the grain, my friend!

Alternatively, you could pile on even more integration time, though you'd probably be talking something like 2-4X to really make a big noise difference.

I think you've done a pretty good job on Alnitak, that bane of Horsehead imagers. You could conceivably shoot some much shorter exposures and try blending those in, though it's a challenge to do that without leaving screaming artifacts.

My main man Pete_XL says that one thing he looks for is a very subtle tell -- there's a star lurking around the top of the Horse's "mane". After I heard that, I went back and obsessed on that little area in Photoshop so Pete would be pleased with me :-). I won't post the image here because this is your thread, not mine, but feel free to have a look.

[smashing]

17 hours ago, rickwayne said:

This image has definitely got it going on, as the kids say over here. (Well, the kids around 40 years old, anyway.) I  really like the detail you're getting in the Mountains. While the color is bold, I don't think it's too much, although more color in the stars would be nice. (Maybe starnet so you can put unstretched stars into the image?)

I  absolutely agree about the noise reduction, you've got the dreaded "plastic" look that's especially apparent in the Flame and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that if you back that off, the gradients and tonality in the Mountains will further improve too. Embrace the grain, my friend!

 

Yep giving starnet a run now and see what I get out of it...managed to actually find the location I added all the noise reduction in and the flame is much better than the above...I then kind of worked out that actually select and mask in photoshop is amazing you do indeed learn something new everyday!

[Tommohawk]

Looks great to me! Those stars are tough to control - but there is a lot of real reflection around them, so they will inevitably appear quite large. Link here to APOD of Flame nebula - superb detail but are those stars pretty? 

Re the noise, just  more subs really. Couldn't see how many subs you used or what ISO/exposure - but looks like you have it pretty well nailed. Nice framing/cropping too.

[smashing]

Well...spent most of the day trying different things and got about as far as my current skill levels will take for the time being...will revisit if/when I get some better/more data  

Original

Revisited...embraced the grain lol

[Aramcheck]

Thanks very much for sharing the stacked data! If you use APT to control your camera, have a look at the Framing Mask feature (see:-https://www.astrophotography.app/usersguide/framing_masks.htm#) which is supposed to help framing between different sessions. (I've had no experience with it yet - clear nights here have been few & far between!)

Anyway here's my quick process of the data - I couldn't get rid of the line at the bottom left...

Cheers
Ivor

 

[Paul M]

3 hours ago, smashing said:

Yup, definitely this one. The definition in the Flame is worth the Grain.

Actually, I just coined a phrase: "The Flame is Worth The Grain!" 😂 

[Paul M]

16 minutes ago, Aramcheck said:

Thanks very much for sharing the stacked data! If you use APT to control your camera, have a look at the Framing Mask feature (see:-https://www.astrophotography.app/usersguide/framing_masks.htm#) which is supposed to help framing between different sessions. (I've had no experience with it yet - clear nights here have been few & far between!)

Anyway here's my quick process of the data - I couldn't get rid of the line at the bottom left...

Cheers
Ivor

 

I cropped those stacking artifacts at top right and bottom left. No tools in my box for those! That aside, I really like this rendition. Very nice.

[geeklee]

4 hours ago, smashing said:

Revisited...embraced the grain lol

Nice one, you've definitely retained more of the detail in that second processing.

I've had a quick process of the stack as well to try and get a happy medium between the noise and the detail - not sure I've succeeded, but it's another route.

Edited January 10, 2021 by geeklee

[smashing]

32 minutes ago, geeklee said:

Nice one, you've definitely retained more of the detail in that second processing.

I've had a quick process of the stack as well to try and get a happy medium between the noise and the detail - not sure I've succeeded, but it's another route.

That's a cracking effort...really like the flame colour and detail in that...always nice to see what the data can do.

Tried the starnet stuff but the artefacts left over from the big bright stars was just way beyond my skill level to deal with right now and so I just couldn't get it to work without it looking like a complete mess!

[rickwayne]

That's a real challenge and no mistake. I often spend some time on the starless image stomping on the smaller halo-holes with the Spot Healing Brush in Photoshop, with the brush set to around the size of the hole.  For larger ones I might use a smaller brush and run it around the circumference, so  that while there's still an artifact around the star, it doesn't have that telltale sharp edge that our eyes are so good at detecting. For something like Alnitak I'll use masking to bring that particular bit of a copy of the pre-starnet layer through, but then I have to stretch that one too so there isn't a discontinuity...yeah, it's a big mess.

Noise tends to be most visible in the darkest areas, so you might experiment with (yet more masking) applying it sparingly, perhaps to just the areas of the Mountains where they peter out into dark background, while leaving the brighter bits alone. I do really like your noisier-but-subtler  reprocess of the image. Not that I'm the arbiter or anything, but if that's what you like, I'm here to tell you that I do too.  🙂

Edited January 11, 2021 by rickwayne