ASIAIR problems

[Nikodemuzz]

Hi all!

I had a first imaging session yesterday with the ASIAIR. While it is quite typical that things don't quite work out perfectly straight out of the gate, I was surprised at the amount of issues I faced. I had set everything up in daylight, and all seemed fine then. There were some minor bumps, too, but the main issues were:

- The mount (CEM60) didn't seem to track correctly. I took a 60s test image with the SpaceCat and had long star trails in the image. Almost as if the mount didn't track at all. The night before I tested the mount without ASIAIR, it tracked fine, or at least stars weren't obvious streaks. I had connected to the mount via the RS232 port, using the serial-USB adapter that comes with ASIAIR. The manual mount controls from ASIAIR work OK.

- The plate solver - Goto function worked erratically. In the Preview mode the plate solver indicated success, and the polar alignment tool also worked. When I chose the M101 from the object list and commanded Goto, the scope turned downwards and headed toward a tripod strike, prompting me to power off the mount. M101 was almost directly overhead at the time. Not convincing.

Would you happen to have any insight as to what I may be doing wrong?

[Adreneline]

I use an ASIair with a CEM25-EC and the only time it has not worked as expected was after an update to the firmware and the correct mount was not selected but I guess you have checked and double checked that already. The only other problem I have had was when the Home position was not set correctly but I fear that was operator error!

I presume you have checked that the ASIair is reading the GPS information correctly from the mount (via hand controller).

Hopefully someone else will have some ideas on what might be causing the problem.

Good luck.

Adrian

Edited April 17, 2020 by Adreneline
Typo

[Nikodemuzz]

14 minutes ago, Adreneline said:

I presume you have checked that the ASIair is reading the GPS information correctly from the mount (via hand controller).

This might be a clue. I didn't have the hand controller attached, should I? There is no mention of it in the mount manual, if I remember correctly. I inserted the coordinates manually. Thanks for helping, Adrian!

[Adreneline]

Just now, Nikodemuzz said:

I didn't have the hand controller attached, should I?

The hand controller needs to be attached to the mount and then connect the ASIair to the hand controller.

It's pretty dificult to take a decent photograph but this is my setup. Hopefully you can see the hand controller is connected via the 232 type connector to the ASIair.

Adrian

 

[Nikodemuzz]

9 minutes ago, Adreneline said:

The hand controller needs to be attached to the mount and then connect the ASIair to the hand controller.

OK, I would be very happy if this would solve the issue. I'm just a bit confused about why this is not mentioned in the manual... Cool looking setup, by the way! Is that a camera lens fitted to the astro camera?

Here is the manual section for reference: 

[Adreneline]

Well I guess you are correct that there is no explicit requirement, however, iOptron provide a lead which connects to the controller and is terminated at the other end with an RS232 type connector. The instructions for iOptron Commander state that you need a suitable RS232 to USB interface cable with FTDI chipset and that is the lead that either plugs into a PC or into the ASIair. I agree it is not that clear but be assured it works!

Yes, I have a Samyang 135mm mounted on the ASI1600MM-Pro. I also use the ZWO-EAF for focussing the lens - connected to the ASIair, and a ZWO-ASI120MM-mini for guiding which I rarely use as the CEM25-EC tracks very well without guiding, certainly for exposures up to 300s.

Hope you get it sorted.

Adrian

[Nikodemuzz]

On 17/04/2020 at 20:00, Adreneline said:

Well I guess you are correct that there is no explicit requirement, however, iOptron provide a lead which connects to the controller and is terminated at the other end with an RS232 type connector. The instructions for iOptron Commander state that you need a suitable RS232 to USB interface cable with FTDI chipset and that is the lead that either plugs into a PC or into the ASIair. I agree it is not that clear but be assured it works!

Yes, I have a Samyang 135mm mounted on the ASI1600MM-Pro. I also use the ZWO-EAF for focussing the lens - connected to the ASIair, and a ZWO-ASI120MM-mini for guiding which I rarely use as the CEM25-EC tracks very well without guiding, certainly for exposures up to 300s.

Hope you get it sorted.

Adrian

Thanks again for the help, Adrian! I got it working. However, it wasn't by connecting through the handset. If I did that, ASIair didn't find the mount at all. However, when I connected to ASIair via the RS232 port, but had the handset attached, I got it to work. Curious, but I'm happy that this hurdle is now in the past. Off to the next one! 😃

Edited April 25, 2020 by Nikodemuzz
Typo

[Nikodemuzz]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm still having similar issues and wouldn't like to create a new thread on what is almost the same subject.

My ASIAIR + Ioptron CEM60 combo still works the way described earlier in the thread, however, I would like to make use of the CEM60's built in USB hub / pass through. That would allow me to eliminate all potential cable snags.

The problem is, ASIAIR cannot seem to find the mount when I try to do this, and I'm having trouble locating the problem. It might be best if I describe what works and what doesn't:

1. RS232 - USB -cable from the mount's RS232 port straight to ASIAIR. WORKS

2. RS232 - USB -cable from the mount's RS232 port to a USB A/B adapter, connecting to the mount USB (next to the 12V input for the saddle ports), then regular USB from the saddle to ASIAIR. NO CONNECTION

3.  RS232 - USB -cable from the mount's RS232 port to the saddle USB port, then via USB A/B -adapter and a regular USB cable to the ASIAIR. WORKS

So, connecting the cables the other way around helps it find connection, but in that case the cables are obviously the wrong way. I confirmed this by running my laptop mouse through the mount pass through. Same thing, works one way, doesn't the other.

What on earth is this nonsense? 😃 I would really appreciate any help.

[stash_old]

Not enough info but a "guess" would be you are hitting the standard Linux USB Adapter problem of being able to identify usb devices uniquely and that the CEM60's built in hub is not "standard" and transparent.

If Linux cannot identitify the device by its unique signature then any software being used might be given the wrong device - so camera software on ASIAR trying is trying to talk to the mount.

Although your descriptions dont match this senario perfectly.

A "standard" USB hub should be transparant unless there is a power problem - your GEM60 doesn't provide enough power for any device connected to it - camera's would show this , a mount shouldn't as its supplied directly I would have thought for the GEM60's. So using the same cables that work but just putting and extra HUB in the equation shouldn't cause a problem.

You keep using the word "RS232" - must be a bit careful here - True RS232 uses 12v+ signal lines ,most mount ports are TTL and use 3.3 or 5v. But not knowing the GEM interface I cannot truthfully make a judgement. But having a quick read of the manual it always says RS232 serial - I did say a quick read.

However the manual also said

"The USB hub is non-powered and will draw power from the source USB port (for examplecomputer USB port). Therefore, the number of usable USB portsmight be limited,depending on the power consumption of the accessories."

Depending on the "draw" this maybe too much for the Raspberry PI USB ports.

[Nikodemuzz]

3 hours ago, stash_old said:

Not enough info but a "guess" would be you are hitting the standard Linux USB Adapter problem of being able to identify usb devices uniquely and that the CEM60's built in hub is not "standard" and transparent.

If Linux cannot identitify the device by its unique signature then any software being used might be given the wrong device - so camera software on ASIAR trying is trying to talk to the mount.

Although your descriptions dont match this senario perfectly.

A "standard" USB hub should be transparant unless there is a power problem - your GEM60 doesn't provide enough power for any device connected to it - camera's would show this , a mount shouldn't as its supplied directly I would have thought for the GEM60's. So using the same cables that work but just putting and extra HUB in the equation shouldn't cause a problem.

You keep using the word "RS232" - must be a bit careful here - True RS232 uses 12v+ signal lines ,most mount ports are TTL and use 3.3 or 5v. But not knowing the GEM interface I cannot truthfully make a judgement. But having a quick read of the manual it always says RS232 serial - I did say a quick read.

However the manual also said

"The USB hub is non-powered and will draw power from the source USB port (for examplecomputer USB port). Therefore, the number of usable USB portsmight be limited,depending on the power consumption of the accessories."

Depending on the "draw" this maybe too much for the Raspberry PI USB ports.

You could be right about the USB identification, as ASIAIR actually mentions something about a change in camera connections when I connect the mount and it doesn't recognize it. How could this be solved if this is the case?

I don't think it's a power issue. The mount has its own power, and the rest of the equipment are powered through ASIAIR.

I'll try to make some pictures to make it easier to understand what is happening.

[Nikodemuzz]

OK, so scenario 1. This works, and this is how I have been operating. However, this means that there is a potential cable snag issue with the cable coming from the ASIAIR (which sits on top of the scope) to the mount. The mount has a built in system to eliminate this problem, and I would like to use it.

Scenario 2: This is how the built in system should work, but it doesn't.

Scenario 3: For some reason if I go through the USB hub the other way around, it works. This has no practical application, but it proves that none of the components are faulty?

Hopefully it will now be easier to understand what I am describing. 😃 

[stash_old]

See attached picture but  I do not understand what Mount USB (B) port is - are you sure this is not just a Guide Port and not a Mount port as the Serial - USB(A) would seem to be the mount connection which I would connect to Saddle HUB (it repeats everything). If the Mount USB(B) is a guide port then that should also plug into Saddle Hub. Then take a USB cable from Saddle Hub to Asiair. If you can get to the command line of the ASair and do lsusb with the cables connected as suggested you should see 2 ports - one mount and one Guide port - if that is what Mount USB(B) port is.

[stash_old]

this is how I think it should be connected assuming

1. Port on what you call Mount USB(B) is a ST4 guilder port ( I cannot see any other port in the picture )

2. The Serial - USB (A) cable is a RS232 to USB adapter

3. The saddle USB HUB is standard hub.

4. ALL USB cables involved are fully wired - some are power only but I think yours look the fully data and power USB cables.

Read the manual again but does mention where the ports actually are specifically - e.g. what is the port on your picture called "Mount USB (B)" - which I assume is a ST4 guild port.

Edited December 31, 2020 by stash_old
ST4 port shown cabled wrong - is its a ST4 port

[stash_old]

WARNING !!!!! If the Mount USB (B) port is a ST4 then the cabling I showed is wrong . The ST4 port on Mount USB(B) should connect to a Guide port on appropriate camera not as I showed in my picture. The GEM60 manual is lacking simple (for me IMHO) details  with pictures - too wordy.

[Nikodemuzz]

50 minutes ago, stash_old said:

this is how I think it should be connected assuming

1. Port on what you call Mount USB(B) is a ST4 guilder port ( I cannot see any other port in the picture )

2. The Serial - USB (A) cable is a RS232 to USB adapter

3. The saddle USB HUB is standard hub.

4. ALL USB cables involved are fully wired - some are power only but I think yours look the fully data and power USB cables.

Read the manual again but does mention where the ports actually are specifically - e.g. what is the port on your picture called "Mount USB (B)" - which I assume is a ST4 guild port.

1. No, it is a USB-B, the odd square type. Guide port is next to it, but not visible in my photo. See here:

2. Correct, however it is built in as a one cable 

3. Correct

4. I'm not sure, but I think so. I can't see the cables working in one sequence but not in other if this was the case.

[stash_old]

Sorry then cant help further - Email Ioptron  for a clearer explanation (exploain your Asair set up) or perhaps someone who has that mount will help.  Please post any solution as I am looking at the 60 or 70G as an upgrade next year. Happy New Year 

[stash_old]

Quote from manual no mention of the port Type-B next to Polar scope.

Appendix D. Computer Control a CEM60 Mount The CEM60 mount can be connected to a computer using supplied serial cable. A RS232 to USB adapter (not supplied) is needed if your computer does not have a serial port, like most of the laptops on the market today. Follow the adapter instructions to install the adapter driver. When the communication between the mount and computer has been established, the mount can be controlled via ASCOM protocol. To control the mount via ASCOM protocol, you need: 1. Download and install ASCOM Platform from http://www.ascom-standards.org/. Make sure your PC meets the software requirement. Refer to the ascom-standards website for details. 2. Download and install the latest iOptron Telescope .NET ASCOM drive from iOptron website. 3. Planetarium software that supports ASCOM protocol. Follow software instructions to select the iOptron Telescope. Please refer to iOptron website, www.iOptron.com, under Support Directory/ASCOM Driver, iOptron Telescope .NET ASCOM Driver, for more detail. CEM60 mount may also be directly controlled by other third party software and accessories. Please contact them for more information.

 

 

 

Plus Cloudy nights Cem60 users connect this way as well although some of the info is for the older model https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/573493-cem60-connection-to-laptop/

[kens]

@Nikodemuzz I don't profess to know anything about the CEM60 but looking at your scenario photos I can't see how scenario 2 could work whereas scenarios 1 and 3 both look normal to me. USB hubs are arranged in a tree and link from one branch (port) from the computer to the trunk of the next one (e.g. on the saddle) which then provides more bracnhes (ports).

In scenario 2 you are connecting the branch from your computer to the branch of the hub on the saddle. I suggest you ditch your USB-A to USB-A cable and get a standard USB-A to USB-B 

In a conventional setup you would use go from a laptop via USB-A to USB-B to the port next to the polar scope. A separate USB serial cable goes from the laptop USB to the mount serial port. Cameras, filterwheel, focuser etc connect to the USB ports on the saddle. I cannot understand why you say this has no practical application. 

This is functionally equivalent to your scenario 3 with the Asiair being used instead of a laptop.

[Nikodemuzz]

I see now. The problem is that the ASIAIR is playing the part of the computer, but resides on the wrong end of the mount's USB hub. If I move the ASIAIR off the scope and on the mount and connect all accessories through the mount, it should work. 

Thanks @stash_old and @kens for taking the time!

@kens You are right, it was wrong of me to say that there is no practical application for that kind of connection.  What I meant is that connecting the cables that way doesn't make sense in my case (if the ASIAIR is on the scope)

[Lawrence James]

FWIW, I'm using a skywatcher mount and asiair does not like having a hub between the air and the mount as well.  I needed one more usb port so I got a two port usb hub cable.  If I use it for the mount I can't get it to work.  So I use it on the guide camera and the focuser.  Works fine there.  My skywatcher is one of the later ones with a usb port and build in usb to serial converter chip.  To bad zwo didn't add a few more usb ports.  You lose one for the memory stick.  Then you have 3 and if you have focuser and/or filter wheel you're going to need more than 3.

[Moodtastic]

I have a CEM40 which has a USB port. I've only plugged the handset in once to do a firmware update, otherwise its just straight into my laptop or asiair.

For some reason AAP or the mount is really picky about the USB port I use, not entirely sure why. 

I'm also iinterested if there is a solution. I would like to get a larger scope and was thinking of a CEM60 to carry it.

[Nikodemuzz]

10 hours ago, Moodtastic said:

I have a CEM40 which has a USB port. I've only plugged the handset in once to do a firmware update, otherwise its just straight into my laptop or asiair.

For some reason AAP or the mount is really picky about the USB port I use, not entirely sure why. 

I'm also iinterested if there is a solution. I would like to get a larger scope and was thinking of a CEM60 to carry it.

Solution to what exactly, if I may ask? Regarding the CEM60? For me the ASIair Pro works fine now once I understood how the unit "sees" the mount's USB hub. I don't have the ASIair on the scope anymore, but attached to the mount. All accessories on the scope connect to the saddle hub, so cable snags will not be an issue in any orientation which was my main goal.