USB 3.0 cable length

[Doug64]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can offer me some advice.

I used to set my telescope and imagingbrig up from time to time and was running the imaging rig etc with a Startech 7 port 12v dc powered hub and a 5m Lindy active cable which ran to my computer.

I had no problems running this set up however the good old council have recently replaced the sodium lights with LED lights and now my back garden looks like Blackpool illuminations.  As a result of this I am having  to move my scope and imaging rig further down the garden and will need to run a 15m cable back to the house and my computer.

I will be using my Asi 1600 mono cooled camera and from time to time a DSLR.

Can I just buy a 15 m USB 3 active cable and run this from the USB hub on the scope back to my computer or can I buy a USB 3.0 to ethernet converter and run Cat5 or Cat6 cable back to my computer (would this work).

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Doug

 

 

 

[MarkAR]

Extension will work.

These should be good quality

https://www.lindy.co.uk/usb-c4/usb-extension-c222/15m-49-70ft-t53

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by MarkAR

[Doug64]

14 minutes ago, MarkAR said:

Extension will work.

These should be good quality

https://www.lindy.co.uk/usb-c4/usb-extension-c222/15m-49-70ft-t53

 

Thanks for the reply.

The Lindy 15m USB 3.0 cable is the one I was looking at,as I currently use the Lindy 5m active USB cable and have had no problems, I was just a little worried about the additional 10m cable length and data transfer.

Doug

[noah4x4]

Hi Doug,

The theoretical limit for USB3 is 3 Metres. For USB2 it is 5 Metres. Active cables might extend this. But, from my experience....

I have an Atik Horizon which is similar to the ASI1600. I wish you good luck with a 15M 'active' USB3 cable given these cameras generate 16 megapixel images. I tried various makes of long 'active' USB3 and USB2 cables without success.

I also tried a chain of short 5M cables with externally powered USB hubs in between rather than rely on the limited power output of the  computer's USB port, but no greater success. If not for the coronavirus lockdown and distance I would willingly lend you a box full of assorted redundant (costly!) cables and hubs for you to experiment with. But I fear you might struggle.

Frankly, I suggest you buy the said cable from Amazon and if it doesn't work return it for a refund. Sadly, this distance challenge isn't easy to overcome, but there are options....

One viable route is to embrace powered AVI/USB/HDMI extenders over cat6 Ethernet. But there can be power challenges at the scope end. I have outdoor AC supply, so this route would have been feasible for me, but I discovered this solution late after getting other solutions to work. However, I am a professional cricket scorer and have since employed this technique to transmit video action replays to electronic scoreboard and it works great as cat6 cable has 100 + metre range.

What does work well over 15 metres is WiFi remote control. But you need a quality home network, and possibly MESH extenders (I use BT Wholehomehub). My approach is to put an Intel NUC mini computer at the scope wirelessly connected to a lesser PC computer indoors (that is employed as a dumb terminal) via Windows Remote Desktop. If all you want to do is capture images, a modest stick computer at the scope might suffice. But if you want to (say) view indoors at the camera's native resolution (as I do) you would need far more computing power. This route is fairly easy with Windows 10, but it is not a cheap option as Windows 10 is resource greedy and if ambitious (such as 4K UHD viewing) you need quite a lot of computing ooomph. 

You could buy a proprietory option like Eagle3 or ASIAir, but that's potentially more expensive than DIY as the vendor's profit must be added.

Some folk more computer literate than me achieve DIY WiFi success using Raspberry Pi and Linux, which largely  replicates ASIAir, but the learning curve is steep. This is undoubtedly the lowest budget option, but it is challenging. I could help you with the PC /Windows route (e.g. offer you more detailed guidance) but I was deterred by the complexity of learning Linux to attempt Raspberry Pi. But if you talk to people in the EEAV forum where remote control is commonly employed you should find guidance.

Hopefully the 15 metre active cable will work, but at least you have here got some alternative guidance. 

 

[Doug64]

1 hour ago, noah4x4 said:

Hi Doug,

The theoretical limit for USB3 is 3 Metres. For USB2 it is 5 Metres. Active cables might extend this. But, from my experience....

I have an Atik Horizon which is similar to the ASI1600. I wish you good luck with a 15M 'active' USB3 cable given these cameras generate 16 megapixel images. I tried various makes of long 'active' USB3 and USB2 cables without success.

I also tried a chain of short 5M cables with externally powered USB hubs in between rather than rely on the limited power output of the  computer's USB port, but no greater success. If not for the coronavirus lockdown and distance I would willingly lend you a box full of assorted redundant (costly!) cables and hubs for you to experiment with. But I fear you might struggle.

Frankly, I suggest you buy the said cable from Amazon and if it doesn't work return it for a refund. Sadly, this distance challenge isn't easy to overcome, but there are options....

One viable route is to embrace powered AVI/USB/HDMI extenders over cat6 Ethernet. But there can be power challenges at the scope end. I have outdoor AC supply, so this route would have been feasible for me, but I discovered this solution late after getting other solutions to work. However, I am a professional cricket scorer and have since employed this technique to transmit video action replays to electronic scoreboard and it works great as cat6 cable has 100 + metre range.

What does work well over 15 metres is WiFi remote control. But you need a quality home network, and possibly MESH extenders (I use BT Wholehomehub). My approach is to put an Intel NUC mini computer at the scope wirelessly connected to a lesser PC computer indoors (that is employed as a dumb terminal) via Windows Remote Desktop. If all you want to do is capture images, a modest stick computer at the scope might suffice. But if you want to (say) view indoors at the camera's native resolution (as I do) you would need far more computing power. This route is fairly easy with Windows 10, but it is not a cheap option as Windows 10 is resource greedy and if ambitious (such as 4K UHD viewing) you need quite a lot of computing ooomph. 

You could buy a proprietory option like Eagle3 or ASIAir, but that's potentially more expensive than DIY as the vendor's profit must be added.

Some folk more computer literate than me achieve DIY WiFi success using Raspberry Pi and Linux, which largely  replicates ASIAir, but the learning curve is steep. This is undoubtedly the lowest budget option, but it is challenging. I could help you with the PC /Windows route (e.g. offer you more detailed guidance) but I was deterred by the complexity of learning Linux to attempt Raspberry Pi. But if you talk to people in the EEAV forum where remote control is commonly employed you should find guidance.

Hopefully the 15 metre active cable will work, but at least you have here got some alternative guidance. 

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for the lengthy reply giving me a few options.

I currently use a powerful gaming computer to run my scope, focused, guide camera and imaging rig.  It was the data transfer from the cameras over 15m that was worrying me, especially the ASI1600.

I will not be using RasberryPI or Linux as I have very limited computer skills and feel this would be beyond me.  My computer has a Cat5/6 socket and HDMI socket so I am interested in running Cat5/6 from my scope to the computer.  I have 240v at the scope and I could use a transformer to get DC voltage.  At the moment all my equipment plugs into the USB 3.0 powered Startech hub.  Is there a way to come from the USB 3.0 hub that I have to my computer using the powered Avi/USB/HDMI extender that you mention and what do I need to look for.  I would rather try and use Cat5/6 as this is good for 100m.

I don't really want to purchase an Eagle or similar system due to cost.

Thanks for your help with this.

Doug

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Doug64

[symmetal]

Active USB3 extensions do work but they significantly limit the maximum data rate. They were discussed here  from a few posts down and the ones used were limiting the data rate to 60MB/s irrespective of the extension cable length. This is 1/10 of the max USB3 speed, although the user noted that didn't cause any issues in use and was happy with it. Different manufacturers may tailor the hardware to the cable length and give higher speeds with shorter cables but none of the specs seem to mention this and misleadingly say they work up to USB3 speeds of 5Gb/s which is 640MB/s.

Alan

[Doug64]

50 minutes ago, symmetal said:

Active USB3 extensions do work but they significantly limit the maximum data rate. They were discussed here  from a few posts down and the ones used were limiting the data rate to 60MB/s irrespective of the extension cable length. This is 1/10 of the max USB3 speed, although the user noted that didn't cause any issues in use and was happy with it. Different manufacturers may tailor the hardware to the cable length and give higher speeds with shorter cables but none of the specs seem to mention this and misleadingly say they work up to USB3 speeds of 5Gb/s which is 640MB/s.

Alan

Hi,

Thanks for the reply and the link. 

Ive read the thread and understand a bit better how the data rate is limited, and you won't know if it will work unless you try it.

I'll have to look into ways off setting up my scope a bit more, bl--dy Council.

Doug

[Doug64]

Hi,

If I were to look at purchasing a NUC, (mini PC) do I load my software such as Stellerium etc onto the NUC.  Once I've done this do I connect the USB 3.0 cable from the hub on my scope to the NUC and then run a Cat 6 cable to my computer in the house.  I'm just trying to understand how these work as I'm not brilliant with computers.

If not what do I connect the NUC to so I can run the software.

What spec of NUC would I need to run my scopec etc and ASI 1600.

Thanks

Doug

[noah4x4]

Hi Doug, 

Using two computers directly connected by Cat6 cable is a good option if you are happy with cable. It is far more reliable than USB. The advantage of AVI/USB/HDMI extenders is you only need one computer. But they do have limitations. 

The best route (IMHO) is install Windows 10 Pro on that at the scope, and run all software on that. You then use the laptop indoors as a dumb terminal and use it to control the primary computer using Windows Remote Desktop. If you have power at the scope you can then embrace AC/DC adapters, which then makes life easy.

There are other RDP options like TeamViewer and VnC. But (IMHO) Windows 10 Pro Remote Desktop is the most stable and easiest to set up. It also offers control over RemoteFX compression etc. It costs £99 from Windows 10 Home to upgrade, but it saved me a lot of grief. You only need Win 10 Pro on the scope side machine.

The computer specification at the scope depends on what you want to do, bearing in mind you have a 16 megapixel resolution camera. If all you want to do is capture data in the scope side computer for later post processing on a more powerful PC then a seventh generation i3 with 8Gb RAM should suffice, provided that you ccept a 1920 x 1080 (1080p) resolution.

However, if you want to capture data at the camera's native resolution and transfer 4K UHD screen data to be viewed indoors on a 4K UHD monitor  (as I do) you might need an 7i5 with 16 Gb RAM. But if you stack five second exposures and want real time 4K UHD viewing (as I do), then an 8i7 with 16Gb RAM is desirable.

The computer indoors need not have e such a high specification. However, if you want to view (indoors) at 4K UHD then both PCs need to have that graphics capability. 

Setting up the primary computer to run 'headless' (no monitor) is easy. I simply switch on computer and scope having connected camera and retire indoors. I then connect using Remote Desktop and control passes to my indoor computer. I use Celestron CPWI, but you have options such as Stellarium or Cartes Du Ceil. 

Hope this helps. 

[Doug64]

15 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

Hi Doug, 

Using two computers directly connected by Cat6 cable is a good option if you are happy with cable. It is far more reliable than USB. The advantage of AVI/USB/HDMI extenders is you only need one computer. But they do have limitations. 

The best route (IMHO) is install Windows 10 Pro on that at the scope, and run all software on that. You then use the laptop indoors as a dumb terminal and use it to control the primary computer using Windows Remote Desktop. If you have power at the scope you can then embrace AC/DC adapters, which then makes life easy.

There are other RDP options like TeamViewer and VnC. But (IMHO) Windows 10 Pro Remote Desktop is the most stable and easiest to set up. It also offers control over RemoteFX compression etc. It costs £99 from Windows 10 Home to upgrade, but it saved me a lot of grief. You only need Win 10 Pro on the scope side machine.

The computer specification at the scope depends on what you want to do, bearing in mind you have a 16 megapixel resolution camera. If all you want to do is capture data in the scope side computer for later post processing on a more powerful PC then a seventh generation i3 with 8Gb RAM should suffice, provided that you ccept a 1920 x 1080 (1080p) resolution.

However, if you want to capture data at the camera's native resolution and transfer 4K UHD screen data to be viewed indoors on a 4K UHD monitor  (as I do) you might need an 7i5 with 16 Gb RAM. But if you stack five second exposures and want real time 4K UHD viewing (as I do), then an 8i7 with 16Gb RAM is desirable.

The computer indoors need not have e such a high specification. However, if you want to view (indoors) at 4K UHD then both PCs need to have that graphics capability. 

Setting up the primary computer to run 'headless' (no monitor) is easy. I simply switch on computer and scope having connected camera and retire indoors. I then connect using Remote Desktop and control passes to my indoor computer. I use Celestron CPWI, but you have options such as Stellarium or Cartes Du Ceil. 

Hope this helps. 

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, 

I'll have to look into this a bit further as I'm not sure I want to leave a fairly expensive NUC at the bottom of my garden overnight as it may disappear.

Doug 

[noah4x4]

2 hours ago, Doug64 said:

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, 

I'll have to look into this a bit further as I'm not sure I want to leave a fairly expensive NUC at the bottom of my garden overnight as it may disappear.

Doug 

An idea Doug,

Suggest buy a medium sized plastic toolbox. Inside put the Intel NUC, Focusser controller, batteries, whatever you need, all bolted to an MDF frame. Then you have a portable solution that you don't need to leave outside. When in use, you just run a short cable from NUC to scope, camera etc.

Here is one I made....

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by noah4x4
Add image

[Doug64]

On 16/04/2020 at 17:08, noah4x4 said:

An idea Doug,

Suggest buy a medium sized plastic toolbox. Inside put the Intel NUC, Focusser controller, batteries, whatever you need, all bolted to an MDF frame. Then you have a portable solution that you don't need to leave outside. When in use, you just run a short cable from NUC to scope, camera etc.

Here is one I made....

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

I'm having a play with an RPI 4 at the moment but I think I may end up getting a NUC in the not to distant future as I cant get the RPI 4 to work.

Doug

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Doug64