Budget telescope & eyepiece combination

[A_N_other_beginner]

Managed to get half an hour in tonight between clouds. I had planned to chuck it all over my shoulder and wander 5 or 10 minutes into the countryside, but just popped out into the garden whilst the clouds were mostly parted. I had no idea what I was doing but for a scout about the 20mm plossl did perfectly well and my eldest was thrilled, despite blundering around with no real direction.

On a practical note I think that a right angled finder could be of real benefit - due to the youngsters height (even on a chair) I was contorted in strange shapes trying to use it. Only to find out the hard way that I should have adjusted it during daytime anyway. So if there's any recommendations or a better solution I'd certainly welcome them.
 

[Alan64]

Well done; once you get a 32mm Plossl, it will augment the finder in finding things to observe; not to mention the wider and spacious view it will afford.

I think most like a right-angled finderscope, but I have read of others preferring something else.  There are better electric finders than the bog-standard red-dot that comes with most entry-level kits, Your own is not an entry-level kit however, but an intermediate.  There are deluxe red-dots, as well as these...

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/telrad-finder-astronomy.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/rigel-quikfinder-compact-reflex-sight.html

Look over all of the finders in the marketplace, and research each that catches your eye, online and thoroughly before taking the plunge.  I usually spend a few days if not a week or more researching the various and sundry things man-made.

 

[A_N_other_beginner]

Sorry to keep bumping this thread, but I'm a gear kind of guy - I like to think about the next 3 or 4 purchases, so I can keep my eye out for a bargain. I'm still trying to decide between RACI, Telrad or Rigel but having at least lined up the existing finderscope I'm not going to rush that decision.

I'm thinking ahead to the next holiday a few months away, probably camping in the Lakes/Peaks/Wales etc. So either in a dark sky area or at the least well away from light pollution. Spending time sat outside of an evening is what I'd be doing anyway, so I'm thinking to add a scope to that equation. That brings me back to the first one suggested in this thread - the Heritage 130p. It strikes me that it's a compact little dob that'll happily sit on a picnic table, and most importantly it looks like it's very compact (which is important when playing boot tetris on a decent camping trip.) Would it be a worthy consideration for a travel scope? Or should I consider something else (binoculars even?)
And would I be right in thinking that the eye pieces being 1.25" are interchangeable between the C6N and 130p?

[Alan64]

6 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

Sorry to keep bumping this thread, but I'm a gear kind of guy - I like to think about the next 3 or 4 purchases, so I can keep my eye out for a bargain. I'm still trying to decide between RACI, Telrad or Rigel but having at least lined up the existing finderscope I'm not going to rush that decision.

I'm thinking ahead to the next holiday a few months away, probably camping in the Lakes/Peaks/Wales etc. So either in a dark sky area or at the least well away from light pollution. Spending time sat outside of an evening is what I'd be doing anyway, so I'm thinking to add a scope to that equation. That brings me back to the first one suggested in this thread - the Heritage 130p. It strikes me that it's a compact little dob that'll happily sit on a picnic table, and most importantly it looks like it's very compact (which is important when playing boot tetris on a decent camping trip.) Would it be a worthy consideration for a travel scope? Or should I consider something else (binoculars even?)
And would I be right in thinking that the eye pieces being 1.25" are interchangeable between the C6N and 130p?

When I first saw the AWB "OneSky", which is identical to the "Heritage" 130P, I thought "travelling", and also, of all things, the flower-children of the 1960s in the U.S.; hippies.  So yes, it would lend itself well for travelling.

Practically every telescope you would encounter nowadays use 1.25" eyepieces.  The size is still the standard, and with the advent of 2", and even 3", eyepieces.

[Ricochet]

12 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

I'm still trying to decide between RACI, Telrad or Rigel

I would have the RACI plus one of the others. I've got RACI+Telrad on mine, but on a smaller tube the Rigel might be more appropriate. Plus the Telrad dews up the second you so much as look at it.

12 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

the Heritage 130p. It strikes me that it's a compact little dob that'll happily sit on a picnic table, and most importantly it looks like it's very compact (which is important when playing boot tetris on a decent camping trip.) Would it be a worthy consideration for a travel scope?

Yes, but it is quite similar in performance to the scope you have just bought. I would take the time to consider whether you like the current scope and whether you have room to take it camping before essentially doubling up with a second scope.

[Moonshane]

I definitely recommend any kind of red dot finder for initial line up (my skies on average are worse than 5.0 limiting magnitude naked eye so sometimes finding a star close enough to an object is tricky and I therefore need to use a RDF on a mag 3 star or similar. I then transfer to a RACI which is certainly less back breaking for sure plus it is a correct image (so like the star maps) and therefore easier to follow. I can sometimes see the object in the RACI but if not it's usually in a low power eyepiece if the sky allows it to be visible.

All of these with a standard Skywatcher foot will transfer along with 1.25" eyepieces to other scopes so not wasted money at all.

 

[A_N_other_beginner]

On 03/01/2019 at 10:36, Ricochet said:

I would have the RACI plus one of the others. I've got RACI+Telrad on mine, but on a smaller tube the Rigel might be more appropriate. Plus the Telrad dews up the second you so much as look at it.

Yes, but it is quite similar in performance to the scope you have just bought. I would take the time to consider whether you like the current scope and whether you have room to take it camping before essentially doubling up with a second scope.

I'm in no rush to pick up a second scope - whilst the finder is something I need soon, I think I've got enough gear to be finding my feet with it. But the existing scope isn't something I'll have the room to take camping. I'll probably try and pop into a stockist or a local astro club if I do look to get a Dobsonian for travel purposes to see if it's compact enough in the flesh.

What are the differences in use between the Rigel and Telrad - is it just size?

 

On 03/01/2019 at 11:53, Moonshane said:

I definitely recommend any kind of red dot finder for initial line up (my skies on average are worse than 5.0 limiting magnitude naked eye so sometimes finding a star close enough to an object is tricky and I therefore need to use a RDF on a mag 3 star or similar. I then transfer to a RACI which is certainly less back breaking for sure plus it is a correct image (so like the star maps) and therefore easier to follow. I can sometimes see the object in the RACI but if not it's usually in a low power eyepiece if the sky allows it to be visible.

All of these with a standard Skywatcher foot will transfer along with 1.25" eyepieces to other scopes so not wasted money at all.

 

Thanks, it sounds like both are likely to be useful. I shall keep an eye on the classifieds.

[Ricochet]

13 minutes ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

What are the differences in use between the Rigel and Telrad - is it just size?

I've only used the Telrad but aside from the size there are a couple of differences to the reticle: 

• The Telrad has an additional 4° ring as well as the 0.5° and 2° rings. As it is a defacto standard "Telrad rings" with all three circles are often included in planetarium software. The 4° circle is also quite useful for star hopping. 
• The Rigel can be set to pulse on and off which can help seeing faint stars. With the Telrad an additional module has to be purchased and wired in for this functionality. 

[Moonshane]

I find that unless you only use eg the telrad, you don't need the circles as such. I use a RDF as simply an initial placement tool. I think switch to the RACI and follow the star map. 

You might find this handy

 

[sulmiyat]

On 11/30/2018 at 9:26 PM, vlaiv said:

I second suggestion for 150P Dobsonian as better and more serious instrument, if budget can be stretched. But beware it is much larger storage wise (and in general, but in field, size  difference of Torrent TurboTax Gogoanime he two is not that important).

Size of telescope is real issue. Here are couple of comparison charts so you can put things in perspective:

From this chart, you can see that third scope in top row (N 130/920 - very similar model yo Astromaster 130EQ - same aperture only longer FL) is almost tall as grown up person. Even with tripod legs retracted, eyepiece height can be up to 1.40m high from the ground.

On the other hand, most of Dobsonian mounted scopes (all but largest models) are meant to be used seated - much more comfortable position. 5" "table top" model is still not that small. Look at following chart for dob size comparison:

5" F/5 will probably need some sort of small stand - usually bucket turned upside down, or "milk crate" kind of sturdy box is all that you need to observe comfortably seated. 6" is at a good position for grown up to seat and observe without any sort of additional stand.

A telescope has been requested for Christmas by my eldest. I've got 3 slightly contradictory considerations - a) chances are it'll only get minimal use before I'm the only one using it, but b) if there is any possibility of the interest sticking I want to be able to impress straight away, and finally c) I can't afford to spend anywhere near as much as I'd like and I recognise I'm going to have to compromise.

[A_N_other_beginner]

On 06/01/2019 at 13:54, Moonshane said:

I find that unless you only use eg the telrad, you don't need the circles as such. I use a RDF as simply an initial placement tool. I think switch to the RACI and follow the star map. 

You might find this handy

 

I did, thanks. Some good reading in there.

 

On 06/01/2019 at 13:08, Ricochet said:

I've only used the Telrad but aside from the size there are a couple of differences to the reticle: 

• The Telrad has an additional 4° ring as well as the 0.5° and 2° rings. As it is a defacto standard "Telrad rings" with all three circles are often included in planetarium software. The 4° circle is also quite useful for star hopping. 
• The Rigel can be set to pulse on and off which can help seeing faint stars. With the Telrad an additional module has to be purchased and wired in for this functionality. 

Interesting. Given that star hopping is likely to be a challenge for me to start with, it sounds like the Telrad would be the better option.

But I think I'm set on a RACI as well. Any views on the Skywatcher 9x50? I did briefly look at the Antares 8x50, but if I'm reading things right I'd need the specific 50mm bracket too - bringing the cost to double of that of the SW, for the sake of an illuminated reticle. Have I got the measure of things there?

As an aside I went looking for the Orion Nebula today using Sky Safari as my map. I realised rather late that I need a 32mm eye piece. But even with the 20mm it was a welcome experience, and I was able to pick out what I'm pretty sure was Trapezium with it (which looked a whole lot better with the 10mm BSO.) I can see both the youngster and I getting a lot of satisfaction from this.

[Alan64]

At present, I can see Orion later in the night, and to the south...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/140554065@N05/46629873432/in/dateposted-public/

The neighbours' lights aren't too distracting, but in the winter it's worse as my trees have shed their leaves.  The constellation hangs in the sky like a glittering display in a storefront window during the holidays.

It is easier to observe an object whilst seated in a chair.  The tube-rings of a telescope allows the user to rotate the focusser to a more comfortable observing position.  The tripod's legs should be retracted, for the mount's lowest position, and its greatest stability.  It is then that the higher powers may be realised, with the equivalent of a 4mm eyepiece, and where "Wow!" and "Look at that!" exist. 

You'll get there.

[Ricochet]

10 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

Any views on the Skywatcher 9x50?

That's what I use. I suggest extending the dew shield on the front, but other than that it's a perfectly good finderscope. You can pay more for a "better" one but given the point of it is to find things and then look through the main telescope I don't think that is much of a concern and the money can probably be better spent elsewhere.

[A_N_other_beginner]

I know I'm flitting all over the place with my posts - but I've now got a shortlist of those items I want and the order I think I should get them. That order consists of 32mm EP->RACI->Telrad->Barlow's->travel Dob (maybe.)

I'm trying to choose between the 30mm Vixen NPL vs. the 32mm GSO Plossl. I've got some Amazon vouchers I can use towards the former which means that in real terms it'll cost me less than the GSO (and nothing else on my list is on Amazon.) I've heard good things about the NPL EP's, particularly the 30mm when reading forum posts here and elsewhere but likewise the GSO seems well regarded too. Any views on that front?

[A_N_other_beginner]

I've taken the plunge with a Vixen NPL 30mm and am anxiously waiting for that to arrive. I'm aiming to add the SW 9x50 RACI at the end of the month.

I've been having a play with a FOV calculator and doing some reading on different threads about planetary viewing, barlows etc. I feel like it's actually starting to make sense. But getting kit that legos together well and fills those numerical holes in magnification seems important if I'm going to have to be a little selective about how often I pickup new EP's or barlows.

Right now I'm thinking that a good target would be 250-300x as a rough upper limit for UK conditions. I'm thinking planetary viewing - specifically Saturn, but I'm sure there is some benefit for DSO's.

Should I look at a BST Starguider 8mm plus 3x barlow (281x) , a 6mm BCO plus 2x barlow (250x) or some other combination?
And on the barlow front - the photographer in me is drawn to sinking money into a good barlow, knowing it won't limit subsequent EP performance. But I've no knowledge. Would something like a Televue barlow at £112 be a sensible long term investment, or will the difference between that and something like the Antares Achromat's mentioned above be marginal?

[Ricochet]

13 minutes ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

Right now I'm thinking that a good target would be 250-300x as a rough upper limit for UK conditions. I'm thinking planetary viewing - specifically Saturn, but I'm sure there is some benefit for DSO's.

I think that you are aiming for too much magnification. An 8mm Starguider with a 2x barlow would be a much more useful combination I feel. 

[A_N_other_beginner]

Fair enough, I'd thought for Jupiter 180x was a good target but for Saturn I'd been thinking around 250x. But I have read some quite contradictory views on that subject so I'm certainly open to lower powers (which will probably be more use more of the time anyway)?

[Ricochet]

You can push higher on Saturn but only when the conditions allow, so I think you would often find the higher power unusable. That is ok when you have a lot of options but not if it is your only eyepiece. 

[A_N_other_beginner]

What's the view on barlow's - do you get what you pay for, or would it be overkill with the mix of eyepieces I have?

[Ricochet]

34 minutes ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

What's the view on barlow's - do you get what you pay for,

Yes and no. You won't go wrong by buying something from Televue and if you bought second hand you wouldn't lose a lot if you were to change your mind. However, at the other end of the scale, the barlow sold by FLO under their astro essentials brand is actually very good optically. Where a premium barlow betters it is more in the mechanical side, better materials for the body, a compression ring instead of a simple thumb screw to hold the eyepiece. There are probably differences in the quality of the coatings but you might be hard pressed to notice. As with all things you're probably best off looking for reviews of any specific barlows that you are looking at, rather than assuming that more expensive is better. 

You might also want to consider getting a telecentric focal extender rather than a standard barlow. These will not vignette longer focal length eyepieces and maintain the original eye relief of the eyepiece as well as being more accurate with regards to the magnification factor. The Televue Powermate and Explore Scientific Focal Extender are your options here and either brand should serve you well. (I use an old Meade branded one which is the predecessor of the Explore Scientific.) 

[Alan64]

6 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

What's the view on barlow's - do you get what you pay for, or would it be overkill with the mix of eyepieces I have?

I use barlows with my 150mm f/5...

Those two Antares, a 2x and 3x, have blown me away...

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/antares-x2-achromat-fmc-barlow-lens-125.html

https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/antares-x3-achromat-fmc-barlow-lens-125.html

If you had seen what I had seen through my own, you would already have them.

I have the Vixen NPL 30mm, and as recommended to me by our Mr. Huntley...

I'm not one much for low-power observations, but otherwise it's quite the looker.

[A_N_other_beginner]

My 30mm NPL has arrived and it's a pleasure to use - I'm still not au fait with eye relief and nose piece comfort, but in simple terms it's very comfortable to use. One of the household is a glasses wearer and has commented on how much easier it seems to use than the 20mm plossl that came with the scope, or the 10mm BCO (which isn't great on that front.) Optically I'm very happy with it, it's certainly a good one to start a session with.

Having explored a few different options to get me into the 185-200x range the 8mm BST SG plus a 2x barlow/focal extender which gives me 188x. Adding a 3x barlow/extender down the line gives me a choice of 150, 188, 225 & 281x between the BCO & SG. I can see the appeal of a focal extender over a barlow but that's a decision for another day.

I am however currently waiting on a Vixen 2x Barlow with T2 thread arriving - bought for lunar photography with a DSLR, but it should give me something to play with. Of much greater interest though is the planisphere and TLaO - I suspect they'll do much more for my viewing than the other bits turning up in the post.

[Astro Imp]

5 hours ago, A_N_other_beginner said:

Of much greater interest though is the planisphere and TLaO - I suspect they'll do much more for my viewing than the other bits turning up in the post.

Quite so, if you are unable to locate objects the best eyepieces in the world won't help.
Good luck and have fun.

[A_N_other_beginner]

Sorry to keep spamming this thread with more questions.

The RACI and barlow have arrived, and after setting up I had a quick look around but other than getting used to the different mag of the finder I wasn't able to have much of a look.
I left the scope outside, and returned about 3 hours later. As best as I can tell the secondary mirror has either misted or frosted over - there's frost on the outside of the tube, and nothing visible when I look through the EP. Taking the EP out I can see the mirror (and can down the open end) but nothing when it's all put back together. The finder is also misted over.

I'm more than a little disappointed as it's a beautifully clear night. How do I avoid this next time?

ETA: I've  been looking at dew heaters, I think I understand the basics - strap for the EP, strap for the main scope. Control is a little mystifying though. It seems recommended to get a controller, but the ones I've been looking at (Hitec astro single channel dual output) take power from a cigarette lighter. I'd be looking to use a mains power socket (I've got an external one.) With a cigarette lighter->mains power converter on top, plus straps for scope and EP the total cost is hitting about £115. Is that what's needed?
I should add that doing anything home-made is beyond my abilities. I don't own a soldering iron and don't trust myself to mess around with rewiring things.

[Astro Imp]

Sorry to read you missed a good observing opportunity.
I always recap my finder when not in use to avoid misting/freezing up. As for the secondary mirror freezing, you say you left your scope for about three hours, if I do this I put the end cap on the tube and if I've left an eyepiece in place cap this as well. I was observing a few days ago and when I packed up my scope was well covered in ice. When this happens take your kit inside, leave all the caps off and point the scope downwards to prevent drips running down the tube onto your mirror. Also leave your eyepieces uncapped to dry naturally. It's important not to put your kit away wet/damp as this encourages mould.
HTH and good luck next time.