Meade Infinity 102

[Mak the Night]

16 minutes ago, Ray1103 said:

I went back to the Agena site (about ten times!) and I see what you mean. I was just concerned because I didn't see the words Amici or correct image anywhere in the specs. This looks to be a great compromise monetarily and still provide some fine focus ability. The GSO diagonal will be a great back up! 

http://agenaastro.com/william-optics-1-25-90-deg-erecting-prism-helical-focuser-diagonal.html

They're often called erecting prisms, which is confusing because I'm pretty sure they all erect the image, but only Amici roof prisms show a non-mirror reversed image. Well, I'm confused anyway lol.

I find the helical focuser very useful. Baader filters should thread into it but some filters don't. It also has a tapered nosepiece so could distort a brass retention ring if inserted into one. The helical focuser virtually rules it out for use with a binoviewer though.

[Dave In Vermont]

I'd suggest looking for a BORG Two-Piece Helical-Focuser. BORG is imported by Hutech in the US, don't know about across-the-pond. But these can be very hard to locate.

The good thing about it is that you can put it into whatever you wish as it has a 1.25" base which will fit in any 1.25" tube - focuser, extension, 2" - 1.25" adapter, etc. These rotate like what is seen on the WO diagonal MTN posted. And the action is extremely smooth, providing razor-sharp viewing.

http://www.sciencecenter.net/hutech/prices/focuser.htm

I'd be willing to bet that WO is getting theirs from BORG. BORG makes many different models, but the two-piece 1.25" rotating one is what you'd want. I've had one for years. But now that I've gone Crayford-Happy, it's merrily collecting dust!

Dave

[Ray of LIght]

Talk about confused! Looks like a 4317 and a 7316 is needed? I read the verbage Dave, but I am still new to all this and I can't figure out where this stuff goes or what it does. Help!! At least with the WO focuser the unit is complete and it makes sense. I just hope it accepts my filters, which Mak thinks it will with my Baader filters. The Hutech units look like rings (and is that an eyepiece in the photo?). Is there any way you can explain or send me a picture of yours? It also mentions fitting an SCT, but I guess the focusers on an SCT and my refracter are about the same? Sorry for being dumb but I don't get it yet, lol ✨

[Dave In Vermont]

Yes - I'll do some digging for further info. Don't feel bad about being confused - BORG manages to confuse everyone! And I said they're hard to locate? Now mine is hiding somewhere in my collection! I'll locate and get you a picture and read the numbers off the thing. But the numbers you wrote sound about right. They make a ton of equally confusing toys. But don't hold your breath.....

As for filters, I'm sure the nose of a WO-diagonal would be threaded for filters. The price on that WO certainly is attractive though. But I'd wait and go for a di-electric coated mirror-diagonal. If you want a 1.25" then GSO makes a great one for $75.00 last time I checked (I have one). Agena carries it (of course). But do remember - if you do get the Crayford, you won't have any need for the helical-focuser. You'll be in heaven as is - focus wise. Which probably explains why my BORG has gone into hiding. It likely feels unwanted.....

I'll get in touch -

Dave

[Mak the Night]

You might have something with those WO focusers being Borg Dave although it's difficult to know who actually manufactures much of the hardware itself from any distributor.

The WO diagonal has a thread to accept filters but not all threads are exactly the same. It will accept Baader filters but Lumicons, Celestron and TeleVue filters won't thread completely on. At first they will go a couple of turns then they stop. They will thread onto every other diagonal I have and my Celestron T- adaptor accepts any filter. Lumicon filters also won't thread onto TeleVue eyepieces completely. This is a known discrepancy and it seems that there are at least two slightly different thread configurations emanating from Pacific Rim OEM's.

[Ray of LIght]

Ok, great info guys, thanks! Any thing you can find would be welcome Dave. I am leaning towards the WO helical diagonal because of 1) price and 2) if I ever get a larger aperature and therefore different telescope, the Crayford made for the Meade would probably not fit. I am still interested in finding out more about the Borg/Hutech two piece focuser thingies (whatever they are!). I can then decide. For the Meade 102, though a very nice telescope which I hope to use for the forseeable future, I think the WO Amici helical focuser may be a nice upgrade, especially considering the condition of my eyes. Hopefully when I have looked at all the information on these focusers I can make an informed decision. Besides, I already orderd the GSO correct image diagonal from Agena so, like I mentioned to Mak, I will wait until I get my tax refund before I order anything else. The WO helical focuser is only 70 US on Agena. Talk to you guys later I hope! ✨

[Ray of LIght]

I checked out the GSO and WO dielectric diagonals but they don't have helical focusers and they don't appear to be correct image. While they are beautiful for sure, for my purposes I need the two features I mentioned. I wish they did, but the WO helical diagonal also looks like a beautifully made piece. Am I correct here about the features? 

[Mak the Night]

29 minutes ago, Ray1103 said:

I checked out the GSO and WO dielectric diagonals but they don't have helical focusers and they don't appear to be correct image. While they are beautiful for sure, for my purposes I need the two features I mentioned. I wish they did, but the WO helical diagonal also looks like a beautifully made piece. Am I correct here about the features? 

Dielectric (aka Bragg mirror) mirror diagonals don't have Amici roof prisms so won't be CI. I'm not so sure dielectric mirrors are everything they are cracked up to be anyway, opinions vary on this.

My Baader Neodymium and UHC-S filters fit my WO diagonal perfectly (as you can see above), but the Lumicon, TeleVue and Celestron filters won't thread entirely on.

Every filter I own will thread onto this Celestron T-Adaptor though, so it kind of solves the problem of diagonals with odd threads.

 

[Ray of LIght]

Sounds good Mak! I did a little more research on this focuser stuff and I think the Borg variety are inserted between the existing focuser and (it says, the eyepiece) the diagonal? It requires a 1.25 adapter. I read some stuff on CN that Amici diagonals are not good at high magnifications. I will most likely rarely go over 150x or so. I'm not sure I care about their opinions at this point. So, Mak and Dave, some more stuff to correct me about ? Lol! Also, the non-rotating Borg is more expensive than the rotating variety, so I am still confused. The rotating Borg with adapter will cost about 82 US I think. I get the impression that it replaces the stock rack and pinion focuser (which is not removed as with a Crayford?). Thanks again for all your help! ✨

[Mak the Night]

19 minutes ago, Ray1103 said:

Sounds good Mak! I did a little more research on this focuser stuff and I think the Borg variety are inserted between the existing focuser and (it says, the eyepiece) the diagonal? It requires a 1.25 adapter. I read some stuff on CN that Amici diagonals are not good at high magnifications. I will most likely rarely go over 150x or so. I'm not sure I care about their opinions at this point. So, Mak and Dave, some more stuff to correct me about ? Lol! Also, the non-rotating Borg is more expensive than the rotating variety, so I am still confused. The rotating Borg with adapter will cost about 82 US I think. I get the impression that it replaces the stock rack and pinion focuser (which is not removed as with a Crayford?). Thanks again for all your help! ✨

I've read this about Amici prisms as well. I just don't believe it. I've compared my Amici diagonals side by side with a regular Celestron prism diagonal at high magnifications (200-260x) and they just seem the same to me. I used to regularly lunar view at around 203x, 208x, 216x and even 236x with different Barlow/EP combinations on my Skymax and I've deliberately compared the Celestron prism diagonal with the smallest and largest of my Amici diagonals at high magnifications on the Skymax Mak whilst lunar observing. I see no difference apart from the image 'mirror' reversal in the Celestron. In fact, I thought the WO Amici was a significantly brighter image. I'm pretty convinced it's more Amici prism mythology that goes back to a time when Amici prisms were often poorly constructed and not really intended for astronomical use.

[Ray of LIght]

Amen✨ 

[Mak the Night]

I paid £35 (50 USD?) for my Antares Amici diagonal which was 15 quid cheaper than the Orion one and slightly less than the TS Optics Amici diagonal. Although I've seen the price fluctuate quite a bit on the TS Optics diagonal over two or three years. There isn't really much difference between them in overall quality and build. The Antares feels heavier which I think can be attributed to the chromed brass eyepiece holder. The eyepiece holders are often aluminium and make the unit seem lighter. All of them seem well constructed. 
In use I can't detect any difference in quality and they seem and perform very much like regular prism diagonals in the same price range. My Omegon and WO Amici diagonals have bigger BAK4 prisms and I do think they give slightly brighter images, but the other diagonals compare very well with them.

Yet, the Antares, Orion & TS Optics (probably GSO or Synta) are considered 'inexpensive' Amici diagonals.

[Ray of LIght]

Right, and the GSO Amici diagonal I bought from Agena was only 31US. That's pretty good. I'm sure I will still have a use for it even after I get the WO helical diagonal ✨

[Mak the Night]

14 minutes ago, Ray1103 said:

Right, and the GSO Amici diagonal I bought from Agena was only 31US. That's pretty good. I'm sure I will still have a use for it even after I get the WO helical diagonal ✨

There's nothing wrong with having back-up. I wasn't that surprised when I discovered that my WO diagonal wouldn't accept TeleVue or Lumicon filters, all of my other diagonals do. Also, apart from the fact that Agena seem to be very competitively priced, UK prices are generally 15-20% higher than US prices for the same products. This is primarily because of higher taxation (VAT). The downside is that we tend to pay a fifth more for the same things, the upside is that we get free healthcare. Swings and roundabouts. And also I think that if you buy something actually branded GSO you aren't paying for another name on the GSO product. I tend to trust TS Optics, as they have good customer service, but I have since found that I may have been able to buy that 2.5x shorty Barlow up to 15 quid cheaper as a GSO (or other brand). At least TeleVue prices are pretty consistent in the UK. One of the reasons I use FLO a lot is that they sell a lot of Baader products. For some reason Baader filters seem to thread into everything. Unless I'm really looking for something special I tend to prefer Baader filters and one of the reasons is that they seem to universally fit every thread I have. People often tell me that they can get neodymium filters for less than half the price of the Baader Neodymium. That's great, but if it doesn't thread into a lot of your gear it has limited usability IMO.

[Ray of LIght]

That's good to know because that good price I paid may just be due to the fact that it is a GSO product with a GSO name. You have a good point about the prices and health insurance. I think that I would rather pay more for stuff and not have such expensive and messed up health care. Be that as it may I guess. Should be getting the diagonal soon. I'm sure I will be using the GSO for now, another new piece of equipment to test! Hopefully weather will be better this week after I recover from this test (hopefully won't need a stent, but who knows). Talk later.

[Mak the Night]

I hope you don't need a stent as well Ray. My heart is preternaturally strong and healthy according to my doctors, unfortunately it was my brain that blew a gasket lol.  Astro gear price differences never fail to amaze me. Look at these three retailers:

Telescope House

365Astronomy

The Widescreen Centre

All perfectly reputable retailers that I've bought items from. Telescope House are selling their house brand of Revelation 32mm Plossl for £28. 365Astronomy are selling the GSO original for £32.80 and The Widescreen Centre are advertising the Orion Sirius 32mm Plossl for 53.99. There are basically 26 pounds Sterling (approx 38 USD) difference between the Revelation/GSO 32mm Plossl and the Orion Sirius/GSO 32mm Plossl. I'm pretty positive the Celestron Omni Plossls are GSO, and most Celestron kit Plossls are also GSO. That £26 saved could buy another perfectly decent Plossl!

There are two things certain in life: clouds and taxes.

I'm hoping this will be enough power for my dew controller.

[Ray of LIght]

That power supply looks pretty hefty to me! I like that, clouds and taxes, lol! Boy am I finding that to be the truth. It's kind of crazy with the price differences but a lot of products seem to be like that. Sometimes we just pay for the name. There is like a 19 dollar difference between the GSO diagonal I bought and the Orion, which look to me like the exact same item. Do you know if anyone besides WO make a helical focuser diagonal? Speaking of price differences... ✨

[Dave In Vermont]

Regards info and if the WO is using a BORG - I think you'll note the similarities in these images to the helical on the WO you posted:

 

 

 

 And the nose-piece is indeed a 7316. So the numbers are correct, Ray. Astro-Hutech seems to be the main importer and source -

http://www.hutech.com/

'Ta,

Dave

 

[Mak the Night]

There is an inherent similarity with the Borg Dave. It stands a good chance.

[Mak the Night]

40 minutes ago, Ray1103 said:

That power supply looks pretty hefty to me! I like that, clouds and taxes, lol! Boy am I finding that to be the truth. It's kind of crazy with the price differences but a lot of products seem to be like that. Sometimes we just pay for the name. There is like a 19 dollar difference between the GSO diagonal I bought and the Orion, which look to me like the exact same item. Do you know if anyone besides WO make a helical focuser diagonal? Speaking of price differences... ✨

Yeah, and that's the small one! The bigger one had a stereo system, a teamaker and a disco glitterball I think. But I thought that was overkill lol. Orion products tend to be slightly more expensive, although having said that, they seem to have good quality control. I think Synta try to play on the Celestron name as it is so famous. Sky-Watcher, Levenhuk and Orion 102mm and 90mm Mak's are all made by Synta and are identical except for cosmetic details, the Orion Mak's are usually the most expensive, but do have better eyepiece giveaways.

I've not seen any other Amici prism diagonals with a helical focuser, I'm also pretty sure the WO's are made in Taiwan as well. I believe Kunming Optical custom make the WO bino package for them, as opposed to just a total re-badging job. I may be wrong about this, but it could be that the WO diagonal was made to a specified order. I'm also pretty sure that the Axiom eyepiece series were manufactured especially for Celestron by an unspecified OEM. There is a rumour that when the OEM tried to re-badge or re-jacket the Axiom for another distributor Celestron ended the contract. Later, the Axiom series were manufactured by another OEM but as the Luminos series and they were much cheaper.

[Ray of LIght]

Thanks again guys! I think I understand more now but still confused about the rotating/non-rotating difference, as in I have no idea what that means as far as the Borg units are concerned. As far as the WO helical diagonal, 70 US is already a good price for such a quality piece  of equipment so no problem there. Mak, you should have got the power supply with the disco glitterball, lol! ✨

[Mak the Night]

11 minutes ago, Ray1103 said:

 Mak, you should have got the power supply with the disco glitterball, lol! ✨

I think it would count as light pollution. 

[Dave In Vermont]

I hear a death-ray and cocktail-mixer is in the works.....

I can't figure out BORG and their 'rotating' v. non-'rotating' claims either. Or what it means. All I know is that the two-piece one I have works fine for adding a a few inches in length, and provides precision focusing to an optical-path where there exists a need for such. Such as a cheap rack & pinion focuser. But I'd council one to get a Crayford 10:1 dual-spd. instead of using the Band-Ade® - approach of a helical. Those helical's will cost you ½ the price of a Crayford. Plus shipping.

I have the big-brother 17ah power-supply. Mine is branded Orion-USA and I bought that as it was the cheapest one that day. If the cheapest one was branded "Auntie Mabel's Birdfeeder-Electrocution House," I'd have bought that one instead!

Dave

[Ray of LIght]

You guys are crazy, I love it ?! I will look at all options again (about fifty times for sure). I'm sure I will be laid up a day or so, will give me something to do. Hoping to be out this week no matter what to, like you said Mak, point that thing at something astronomical, lol ✨

[Mak the Night]

7 hours ago, Dave In Vermont said:

I hear a death-ray and cocktail-mixer is in the works.....

I can't figure out BORG and their 'rotating' v. non-'rotating' claims either. Or what it means. All I know is that the two-piece one I have works fine for adding a a few inches in length, and provides precision focusing to an optical-path where there exists a need for such. Such as a cheap rack & pinion focuser. But I'd council one to get a Crayford 10:1 dual-spd. instead of using the Band-Ade® - approach of a helical. Those helical's will cost you ½ the price of a Crayford. Plus shipping.

I have the big-brother 17ah power-supply. Mine is branded Orion-USA and I bought that as it was the cheapest one that day. If the cheapest one was branded "Auntie Mabel's Birdfeeder-Electrocution House," I'd have bought that one instead!

Dave

The cocktail mixer sounds good, I don't need a death ray though as I have a Pellor 'Flashlight Red Light Astronomy Stargazing Tactical Hunter Defender 5 Modes protecting Dark-Adapted Vision' or 'torch' as we say here.

It's barely 13cm long yet produces a red light beam worthy of a light sabre!

I think a lot of Japanese instructions get mangled in translation, on this Kasai page the Japanese translation for the Amici diagonal featured is rendered by Google Translate (via K-Meleon) as:

'Celestial terrestrial amphibious possible useful prism at the same elevation as the zenith prism. Click here for details.'

I was tempted by the 17ah power tank, but it's only really for the dew controller, although I may be able to run a laptop or two off it lol.