Gravity is Dark matter???????????

[Pluto the Snowman]

On 25/02/2016 at 07:13, cloudsweeper said:

Dark Matter, although of unknown nature, behaves like extra mass in the Universe.  It is detected by such things as anomalous rotation of galactic clusters, and the images of distant galaxies whose light has been deviated in its path.  In fact, most of the mass in the Universe is Dark Matter.  So DM acts - in gravitational terms - like regular matter.  

And just to complicate things, remember that gravity is not actually a force but - according to the General Theory of Relativity - a distortion of spacetime.

Doug.

This........

Gravitational lensing is a very interesting and possibly useful (if you have access to the HST and a triple digit IQ) effect. However it takes billions of light years to take advantage of such effects. What interests me rather a lot is what potentially lies withing a few hundred/thousand light years. Loads of exo planets have been confirmed already. Cant wait for the James Webb Space thingy to be invented! I really like where this astrobiolgy is going, minus Mars. I think we've over done it with Mars.

[Dave In Vermont]

Symmetry 101.

<grabbing coat...>

Dave

[acey]

On 26/02/2016 at 00:26, acey said:

Taking the speculation seriously (and why not?), the claim is that if two spheres A and B experience a force that moves them together, then this is due not to the attractive force of gravity, but instead to a "pushing" force from their surroundings. Then the theory would need to explain why it pushed the spheres towards each other, rather than in some other direction. Having accomplished that, it would need to extend the reasoning to a static cloud of particles, which collapses towards its centre of mass. Dark matter wouldn't accomplish this. Only angels would suffice.

I should have thought harder about this. If space is filled with fast-moving particles then two spheres will indeed be pushed together, because each sphere shields the other from some of the particles, creating a net force. The OP's speculation was proposed as an explanation of gravitation by Fatio in 1690 and by Le Sage in 1748. Richard Feynman discusses it in this video clip (starting at about 8.00), and explains why the theory doesn't work.

 

There's a long article about the Fatio-Le Sage theory here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage's_theory_of_gravitation

The following article discusses other "mechanical" theories of gravitation, and lists some recent researchers "outside the scientific mainstream" who have proposed various versions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_explanations_of_gravitation

[mpc755]

"No Empty Space in the Universe" --Dark Matter Discovered to Fill Intergalactic Space
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2012/02/no-empty-space-in-the-universe-dark-matter-discovered-to-fill-intergalactic-space-.html

Quote

"A long standing mystery on where the missing dark matter is has been solved by the research. There is no empty space in the universe. The intergalactic space is filled with dark matter."Dark matter is not a weakly interacting clump of stuff that travels with the matter. Dark matter fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it."

Dark matter which fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it. Dark matter strongly interacts with matter. Dark matter is displaced by matter.

[0903.3802] The Milky Way’s dark matter halo appears to be lopsided
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

Quote

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way’s halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way’s halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark matter, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

What is referred to geometrically as the curvature of spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The state of displacement of the dark matter is gravity.

The dark matter displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth is gravity.

[mpc755]

On 2/25/2016 at 10:08, andrew s said:

On reflection if this were the case then the force of gravity would be proportional to volume of an object rather than it's mass would it not.

Regards Andrew

You have our gaseous Jupiter and a lead Jupiter. The lead Jupiter displaces move dark matter from its volume than does our gaseous Jupiter. There is more displaced dark matter pushing back and exerting pressure toward the lead Jupiter than there is toward our gaseous Jupiter. This increased pressure exerted toward the lead Jupiter is the gravitational pressure.

[mpc755]

4 hours ago, acey said:

There's a long article about the Fatio-Le Sage theory here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage's_theory_of_gravitation

The following article discusses other "mechanical" theories of gravitation, and lists some recent researchers "outside the scientific mainstream" who have proposed various versions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_explanations_of_gravitation

If I understand the OPs question correctly, this is not similar to Le Sage's theory or similar to any of the mechanical explanations listed. This is saying what is referred to geometrically as the curvature of spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark matter. The dark matter is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid. The dark matter displaced by the matter pushing back and exerting pressure toward the matter is gravity.

[andrew s]

11 hours ago, mpc755 said:

You have our gaseous Jupiter and a lead Jupiter. The lead Jupiter displaces move dark matter from its volume than does our gaseous Jupiter. There is more displaced dark matter pushing back and exerting pressure toward the lead Jupiter than there is toward our gaseous Jupiter. This increased pressure exerted toward the lead Jupiter is the gravitational pressure.

Yes on further reflection I am obviously wrong. As dark matter does not interact with the electromagnetic field and the volume of a lump of normal matter is defined by the EM force the volume of normal matter is immaterial.

Can you explain to me how in you model the force between to 1kg masses 1 meter apart works and then how the inverse square law comes about?

Thanks Andrew

[mpc755]

1 hour ago, andrew s said:

Yes on further reflection I am obviously wrong. As dark matter does not interact with the electromagnetic field and the volume of a lump of normal matter is defined by the EM force the volume of normal matter is immaterial.

Can you explain to me how in you model the force between to 1kg masses 1 meter apart works and then how the inverse square law comes about?

Thanks Andrew

The dark matter is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid. The further you get from the Milky Way the less the dark matter is displaced by the Milky Way the less the dark matter pushes back and exerts pressure toward the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of weakly interacting stuff traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark matter, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water. The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the 'supersolid' dark matter.

[andrew s]

2 hours ago, mpc755 said:

The dark matter is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid. The further you get from the Milky Way the less the dark matter is displaced by the Milky Way the less the dark matter pushes back and exerts pressure toward the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of weakly interacting stuff traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way moves through and displaces the dark matter, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water. The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the 'supersolid' dark matter.

Yes but can you explain how two 1kg masses 1m apart experience a net attractive force between them. I can in principle see how a displaced fluid (super-fluid or otherwise) can press an object onto the surface of another object but not how it can give an attractive force between two separated objects.

Regards Andrew

[mpc755]

4 hours ago, andrew s said:

Yes but can you explain how two 1kg masses 1m apart experience a net attractive force between them. I can in principle see how a displaced fluid (super-fluid or otherwise) can press an object onto the surface of another object but not how it can give an attractive force between two separated objects.

Regards Andrew

First of all, gravity is not an attraction. In general relativity gravity is the curvature of spacetime. What I, and the OP, have figured out is the curvature of spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The Earth displaces the dark matter far beyond the Moon. The dark matter displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth keeps the Moon in orbit about it. You can't think of the dark matter as a fluid. A fluid is displaced equally everywhere. If you throw a stone into the ocean 'all' of the ocean water is displaced equally by the stone. This is not the case with the 'supersolid' dark matter. The further from the Earth you get the less the dark matter is displaced by the Earth.

[andrew s]

2 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

First of all, gravity is not an attraction. In general relativity gravity is the curvature of spacetime. What I, and the OP, have figured out is the curvature of spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The Earth displaces the dark matter far beyond the Moon. The dark matter displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth keeps the Moon in orbit about it. You can't think of the dark matter as a fluid. A fluid is displaced equally everywhere. If you throw a stone into the ocean 'all' of the ocean water is displaced equally by the stone. This is not the case with the 'supersolid' dark matter. The further from the Earth you get the less the dark matter is displaced by the Earth.

Thanks you, I am very well aware of the fact that in GR gravity is not a "force" but is due to the curvature of space time. However, in the weak field approximation of Newtonian Gravity it is a force and is adequate for explaining the force between two 1kg masses 1m apart.  

So in a region with no dark matter there would be no force I assume or at the very least it should vary with the density should it not? If this is the case you need to consider that the estimate of the number of dark matter particle in the solar system is very low http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0602095v1. I am sure you will have a simple answer but to be honest a purely verbal description is totally unconvincing given the quantified test that standard GR has been put to.

I think your proposal is wrong and that you do not need Dark Matter to explain gravity under GR.  That both normal and dark matter curve space-time  seem perfectly adequate to explain what we know. 

Regards Andrew

 

[mpc755]

5 minutes ago, andrew s said:

Thanks you, I am very well aware of the fact that in GR gravity is not a "force" but is due to the curvature of space time. However, in the weak field approximation of Newtonian Gravity it is a force and is adequate for explaining the force between two 1kg masses 1m apart.  

So in a region with no dark matter there would be no force I assume or at the very least it should vary with the density should it not? If this is the case you need to consider that the estimate of the number of dark matter particle in the solar system is very low http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0602095v1. I am sure you will have a simple answer but to be honest a purely verbal description is totally unconvincing given the quantified test that standard GR has been put to.

I think your proposal is wrong and that you do not need Dark Matter to explain gravity under GR.  That both normal and dark matter curve space-time  seem perfectly adequate to explain what we know. 

Regards Andrew

 

The notion of "a region with no dark matter" is what I am saying is incorrect. Dark matter fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter. Dark matter fills 'empty' space. The notion of dark matter as a weakly interacting clump of stuff that travels with the matter is incorrect. The notion of dark matter curving spacetime is incorrect. The state of displacement of the dark matter is curved spacetime.

[andrew s]

37 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

The notion of "a region with no dark matter" is what I am saying is incorrect. Dark matter fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter. Dark matter fills 'empty' space. The notion of dark matter as a weakly interacting clump of stuff that travels with the matter is incorrect. The notion of dark matter curving spacetime is incorrect. The state of displacement of the dark matter is curved spacetime.

Then what you call dark matter is not what mainstream science terms dark matter and is a key component in the LCDM (lambda cold dark matter) theory that explains the CMB, gravitational lensing etc.

I can see no benefit in me commenting further. Thanks for the discussion.

Regards Andrew

[mpc755]

40 minutes ago, andrew s said:

Then what you call dark matter is not what mainstream science terms dark matter and is a key component in the LCDM (lambda cold dark matter) theory that explains the CMB, gravitational lensing etc.

I can see no benefit in me commenting further. Thanks for the discussion.

Regards Andrew

Which is exactly the point of the OPs original question, "Gravity is Dark matter???????????". The answer is, "Yes, gravity is dark matter". More correctly, the geometrical representation of curved spacetime physically manifests itself as the state of displacement of the dark matter.

Your response is, that's not what mainstream physics thinks. Which is exactly the point.

'Cosmologists at Penn Weigh Cosmic Filaments and Voids'

Quote

Dark matter ... permeates all the way to the center of the voids.

"No Empty Space in the Universe" --Dark Matter Discovered to Fill Intergalactic Space

Quote

A long standing mystery on where the missing dark matter is has been solved by the research. There is no empty space in the universe. The intergalactic space is filled with dark matter."Dark matter is not a weakly interacting clump of stuff that travels with the matter. Dark matter fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

Dark matter which fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it. Dark matter strongly interacts with matter. Dark matter is displaced by matter.

[digital_davem]

Physics is often very subtle and takes considerable skill to think about correctly. The lay person, without the requisite training, having an amateur stab at it, can sometimes get in an awful muddle and come up with seemingly incomprehensible paradoxes that are actually perfectly satisfactorily understood by experts. 

This is the normal state of affairs and popular science writers are accustomed to dealing with muddled enquiries from enthusiastic, but untrained readers ( one, I remember saying he keeps a list of the top 100 most common blunders made by amateurs who believe they have dispproved Einstein and simply responds to the regular letters he receives my returning the list with the appropriate numbered error ticked).

The infamous scientific "crank" is someone with an obsessive and deep seated belief in some pseudo-science idea they have dreamed up that makes no sense to an expert. Professional scientists,if they were inclined to sacrifice the time to do so, could falsify these ideas without difficulty but they often have a very attractive allure to some lay people, particularly those with some kind of need to be different. The Internet is obviously a fruitful channel for expressing these ideas for people who in the past would have no recourse other than vanity publishing. 

Speaking of which, I have a wonderful self published tome in my possession by someone called Michael Pinder who declares himself the President  of the Decimal Time Society.  It starts off quite creditably and is well argued but before long, a simple idea (that we should decimialise time units rather than sticking with the familar base 60 seconds and minutes) morphs into a philosophical treatise into how the switch to decimal units would solve not only economic problems, but all the social ills you could imagine.  And by the end of the book, even the text is no longer your familar fixed with set of letters but devolves into blocks of letters of all sorts of strange shapes and structures and the prose converts into rambling poetry. I'm sure there must be some intention behind this design but for something presumably intended to be persuasive to the makes of public policy, it resembles quite strongly the work of (at best) an amusing eccesntric or (at worst) a lunatic.  Physics attracts many people and ideas of similar standing - presumably people drawn by the consideration of the infinite. Or something like that.

Real physics is hard enough without the distraction of well meaning but silly psuedo-science.

 

[mpc755]

17 hours ago, digital_davem said:

Real physics is hard enough without the distraction of well meaning but silly psuedo-science.

"Real physics" is hard because physicists are unable, or unwilling, to understand 'empty' space has mass which is displaced by the particles of matter that exist in it and move through it.

What ripples when black holes collide is what waves in a double slit experiment, the strongly interacting dark matter.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality, both are waves in the strongly interacting dark matter.

Dark matter displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.

[digital_davem]

On 26/02/2016 at 21:40, saac said:

1 hour ago, mpc755 said:

"Real physics" is hard because physicists are unable, or unwilling, to understand 'empty' space has mass which is displaced by the particles of matter that exist in it and move through it.

What ripples when black holes collide is what waves in a double slit experiment, the strongly interacting dark matter.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality, both are waves in the strongly interacting dark matter.

Dark matter displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.

Lol, I hope I have got it right then.  seriously though, I remember the first time this was explained to me and the simplicity of that equation and the idea that, what I like to think of as the stickiness of space (permittivity and permeability), fixes the universe's speed limit. It just blew me away it was beguilingly intuitive.  Of course Maxwell was the genius that took us to that point of understanding, no wonder Einstein credited him so much.

 

Jim

Phyicists will (and do) consider every imaginable idea in the competitive fight to make a breakthrough.  There are endless examples of conjectures, partial theories and speculations that phyicists are trying and working on.

There is no lack of effort, imagination or willingness by professional physicists to consider each and every approach that can be dreamed up.  But there is always the problem of making every new idea that solves one problem fully consistent with everything we already understand well. And so far, most ideas, no matter how promising, fall over at some point.

Amateur enthusiasts pushing one approach or another seem to consider themselves immune to the requirement for their theories to meet the challenge of not only solving the immediate issue but maintaining consistency with everything else to endless numbers of decimal places of precision that experiments have achieved.

If there really was a theory sitting in full view that a member of a stargazing forum could spot, don't you think the thousands of top physicists all desperate to make their mark, would have picked up on it?  The only other mechanism that could be proposed to explain a lack of enthusiasm for these obvious ideas is some kind of conspiracy to suppress the truth for unknown reasons. That kind of thing seems to appeal to some people, but holds no interest for me. What is more likely do you think:  the Theory of Everything invented by Everyman is being suppressed by the Ilumminati or that it is just plain wrong?

[mpc755]

58 minutes ago, digital_davem said:

If there really was a theory sitting in full view that a member of a stargazing forum could spot, don't you think the thousands of top physicists all desperate to make their mark, would have picked up on it? 

I think physicists are brainwashed members of a religious cult. They can't even understand the particle always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment is evidence the particle always travels through a single slit. It's like they are incapable of understanding in a boat double slit experiment the boat travels through a single slit even when they close their eyes.

Wave particle duality is a moving particle and its associated wave in the strongly interacting dark matter.

In a double slit experiment the particle is always detected traveling through a single slit because it always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the strongly interacting dark matter which passes through both.

The theory sitting in full view is de Broglie's double  solution theory. In de Broglie's double solution theory there is a "subquantic medium" which fills "empty" space. De Broglie is referring to a strongly interacting dark matter which fills 'empty' space.

Dark matter is not a clump of stuff that travels with the matter. Dark matter fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it. Dark matter strongly interacts with matter. Dark matter is displaced by matter.

[0903.3802] The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided

Quote

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark matter, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

What is referred to as curved spacetime is the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The state of displacement of the dark matter is gravity.

The dark matter displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth is gravity.

What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is what waves in a double slit experiment, the strongly interacting dark matter.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality, both are waves in the strongly interacting dark matter.

If physicists were capable of understanding dark matter fills 'empty' space and strongly interacts with matter they would then understand what relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.

The question is, why is physics incapable of correctly understanding what occurs physically in nature?

[saac]

18 minutes ago, mpc755 said:

I think physicists are brainwashed members of a religious cult. 

 

 

Shhh your not supposed to tell everybody.

[andrew s]

As we now have someone to rival Dirac, Einstein, Maxwell and Feynman on SQL we should all take note! 

Regards Andrew

[mpc755]

15 minutes ago, andrew s said:

As we now have someone to rival Dirac, Einstein, Maxwell and Feynman on SQL we should all take note! 

Regards Andrew

De Broglie figured it out. He referred to the "energetic contact" between the particle and the "subquantic medium". De Broglie was referring to the state of displacement of the strongly interacting dark matter.

[saac]

Lol De Broglie - anyone know how to pronounce his name - every physics lecturer I ever had pronounced it differently.  I go with 'De Broy".  

[mpc755]

12 minutes ago, saac said:

Lol De Broglie - anyone know how to pronounce his name - every physics lecturer I ever had pronounced it differently.  I go with 'De Broy".  

A waitress from France I asked said to pronounce it as it is written. De-Bro-Glie

[digital_davem]

1 hour ago, saac said:

Lol De Broglie - anyone know how to pronounce his name - every physics lecturer I ever had pronounced it differently.  I go with 'De Broy".  

The OU video materials pronounce it "de broil" but who knows.

[digital_davem]

3 hours ago, mpc755 said:

I think physicists are brainwashed members of a religious cult. They can't even understand the particle always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment is evidence the particle always travels through a single slit. It's like they are incapable of understanding in a boat double slit experiment the boat travels through a single slit even when they close their eyes.

Wave particle duality is a moving particle and its associated wave in the strongly interacting dark matter.

In a double slit experiment the particle is always detected traveling through a single slit because it always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the strongly interacting dark matter which passes through both.

The theory sitting in full view is de Broglie's double  solution theory. In de Broglie's double solution theory there is a "subquantic medium" which fills "empty" space. De Broglie is referring to a strongly interacting dark matter which fills 'empty' space.

Dark matter is not a clump of stuff that travels with the matter. Dark matter fills the space unoccupied by particles of matter and is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it. Dark matter strongly interacts with matter. Dark matter is displaced by matter.

[0903.3802] The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the dark matter, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

What is referred to as curved spacetime is the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The state of displacement of the dark matter is gravity.

The dark matter displaced by the Earth pushing back and exerting pressure toward the Earth is gravity.

What ripples when galaxy clusters collide is what waves in a double slit experiment, the strongly interacting dark matter.

Einstein's gravitational wave is de Broglie's wave of wave-particle duality, both are waves in the strongly interacting dark matter.

If physicists were capable of understanding dark matter fills 'empty' space and strongly interacts with matter they would then understand what relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.

The question is, why is physics incapable of correctly understanding what occurs physically in nature?

A more pertinant question might be:

- according to an estimate by Physics Today, there are approximately 1 million practicising physicists in the world today.  (http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/news/the-dayside/one-million-physicists-a-dayside-post)

- according to you, 999,999 of that cohort are brainwashed and can't see the truth of the most fundamental theory they have devoted their lives to the search of despite it being right in front of their faces.

- Except you, of course.

Yet, despite having exclusive, sole access to something the entire community would stew their grandmothers to possess, no one, bar 3 members of an obscure part of an amateur star gazers forum, gets to hear this revelation.

What's going on?