problems with SPC900 guiding - 1st attempt last night

[tingting44]

ive been talking with my friend Jake on  google+ where we hang out and think i have found the problem out, thought id just post up our convo as if it helps one person it will be worth it

Ok run through exactly what's happening 

 

Martin Young

09:19

 

 

 

i feel well deflated Jake i hated last night

i woke up at about 3am and saw gaps in cloud so set everything up in the garden, connected my SPC900 and GPUSB all ok to PHD2 started the looping process and this is where i was left stumbled as what to do next? i was just seeing what i describe as noise? and some areas looked like there were stars on the screen but each second the new exposure updates its like every star moves so thinking it could not be stars but all noise? it soo stressed me out last night and was not enjoyable one bit, just uploading a couple of videos i took of PHD2 which will show you what im on about more then i can explain

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Jake Cannon

OWNER

09:22

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We're you even in focus with the finderscope ? I suspect you will have to remove the locking ring on the finderscope to achieve focus as the chip on the spc is set fairly far back 

 

Martin Young

09:27

 

 

 

i was thinking focus might not be an issues as i couldnt get anything that resembled a star let alone a black sky, just noise? will it be ok to try and gain focus now during the day to get a rough idea of where i need to be for focus then?

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Jake Cannon

OWNER

09:30

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Not really no as you'll likely just get a white out when looping the camera 

If your not in focus all you will get is noise and hot pixels on screen 

 

Martin Young

09:33

 

 

 

ah what a bummer, could i not even turn the gain and brightness right down to try to achieve a close focus for the night?

that indeed sounds like what i was getting last night Jake......noise and hot pixels, so the focus ring would need to be removed and focus on the finder to come in right? and the SPC900 end of the finder would need to go in as much as possible right as i didnt screw it in much as i didnt want it to get stuck lol

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Jake Cannon

OWNER

09:38

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Screw it in all the way as you don't want any movement. Yes take the ring off 

You can try during the day but whatever it is your focusing on needs to be a good distance away. Don't stress about it as once the ring is off and you start focusing you will soon see stars start to appear 

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Martin Young

09:40

 

 

 

taking the locking ring off now and screwing all the way in right now Jake, then to gain focus i guess i would adjust the SPC900 right to get focus bang on right?

thanks i might have a quick try on focus now, ill try not to stress about it as i was letting it get to me last night i feel a LOT better after our convo tho buddy 

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Martin Young

09:43

 

 

 

the SPC900 adapter to screw into the finder scope is quite wobbly also when screwed in...

 

Jake Cannon

OWNER

09:47

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It's should be wobbly and no once the spc and adapter are screwed tight you gain focus by moving the objective lens on the finderscope you don't touch the spc 

 

Martin Young

09:49

 

 

 

gotcha Jake! but without no locking ring on the objective wont that be wobbly when i screw outwards to gain focus?

 

Martin Young

09:51

 

 

 

one thing i did find hard last night was getting the SPC900 onto the area of sky i wanted where my finderscope had the SPC900 in there so could not use that lol i might have to dig out my telrad and add that to the scope to make life easier finding the area of sky i want when the finderscope is occupied with guiding...

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Jake Cannon

OWNER

09:55

 

 

 

Sorry I meant to say it "shouldn't" be wobbly when spc and adapter are screwed in. Sadly some setups require the ring to come off and yes it's possible for the objective to then move but once you have got focus nailed then secure it with some gaffer tape 

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Martin Young

10:00

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ive got the SPC900 and adapter screwed in fully now and there is indeed no wobble now i guess ill have to wait to see if i do need the focus ring off or not to gain focus but by the sounds of it, it will need to be off, ill cross that bridge when i know for sure tho

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Jake Cannon

OWNER

10:01

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Don't worry about it tho not many people guide successfully on there first attempt. It will all be good 

 

Martin Young

10:03

 

 

 

 takes a deep breat..................andrelease............lol do feel better now tho

thanks for your help tho Jake!!! 

 

Martin Young

10:11

 

 

 

think ill post this topic up on SGL to hopefully help any other new guiders who might have this same problem, my video's are half uploaded now so hopefully wont be too long to show you the footage

 

Jake Cannon

OWNER

10:18

 

 

 

You'll find many similar threads on SGL about things like this. It's all about checking one thing at a time, then once you eliminate one potential issue you then move onto the next until you solve it. 

So for now we will go with the finderscope not being focused properly being the problem and hopefully fix that the next time out 

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Jake Cannon

OWNER

10:27

 

 

 

Oh and on a sidenote I think I found you on Xbox live and sent a friend request. Well I hope it was you 

 

Martin Young

10:43

 

 

 

ah nice one jake! my name is the same on everything lol "tingting44"

here are the video's i took...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tingting44/13325502014/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tingting44/13325460375/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tingting44/13326042633/

[hobsey]

Good luck with this.

I've only just managed to get and image on the screen with my webcam.

I don't currently have a guide scope for the camera to go into so I'm going to experiment with my ST80 at the scope and my DSLR mounted on top.

[glowingturnip]

been there, done that, I feel your pain mate.  I find it by far the most frustrating part of the whole thing, finding a guidestar, and i've lost whole evenings to it before, but like all things, you get used to it after a while.

I use a similar set-up, although I use my Meade LPI rather than SPC900 since I can see marginally more stuff with the LPI.

What's going on is that you've got auto exposure on, and while the camera isn't in focus and is seeing nothing, all it's doing is amplifying the noise - once you do find a guidestar, you'll see the background drop off markedly and be easily able to identify the star.

Focus is absolutely key - the guidescope only needs to be a little bit out of focus and you won't see anything.  Take the time in the daytime, focus the guidescope with camera on a distant object, then without changing focus, swap the camera out and put an eyepiece in - try to find a position and/or eyepiece that is almost in focus with the same focus setting (ie find where it's parfocal with the camera), and remember the position.

Then in the nighttime, put the eyepiece in the scope in the same parfocal position, focus the scope visually , then move it around slowly (trying not to lose your target on the main scope!) until you get a nice bright star right in the middle of the field of view - if you swap to the camera now, hopefully you'll see the star (if not, tweak the focus either way slowly, see if you can make it pop up, otherwise try moving the scope around gently - it can be a pain some nights, or work like a dream on other nights)

Your brightness is way down in those videos, turn it up.  I usually go for something like a 0.2s framerate too, at least while finding a star, makes it quicker to find.  You may find using the 'take darks' button useful, though it's never really worked for me - I have tried to guide on a hot pixel before (!) but I know where all my hot pixels are now.

good luck !

[tingting44]

been there, done that, I feel your pain mate.  I find it by far the most frustrating part of the whole thing, finding a guidestar, and i've lost whole evenings to it before, but like all things, you get used to it after a while.

I use a similar set-up, although I use my Meade LPI rather than SPC900 since I can see marginally more stuff with the LPI.

What's going on is that you've got auto exposure on, and while the camera isn't in focus and is seeing nothing, all it's doing is amplifying the noise - once you do find a guidestar, you'll see the background drop off markedly and be easily able to identify the star.

Focus is absolutely key - the guidescope only needs to be a little bit out of focus and you won't see anything.  Take the time in the daytime, focus the guidescope with camera on a distant object, then without changing focus, swap the camera out and put an eyepiece in - try to find a position and/or eyepiece that is almost in focus with the same focus setting (ie find where it's parfocal with the camera), and remember the position.

Then in the nighttime, put the eyepiece in the scope in the same parfocal position, focus the scope visually , then move it around slowly (trying not to lose your target on the main scope!) until you get a nice bright star right in the middle of the field of view - if you swap to the camera now, hopefully you'll see the star (if not, tweak the focus either way slowly, see if you can make it pop up, otherwise try moving the scope around gently - it can be a pain some nights, or work like a dream on other nights)

Your brightness is way down in those videos, turn it up.  I usually go for something like a 0.2s framerate too, at least while finding a star, makes it quicker to find.  You may find using the 'take darks' button useful, though it's never really worked for me - I have tried to guide on a hot pixel before (!) but I know where all my hot pixels are now.

good luck !

some AWSOME info there mate, thanks a lot!!!.............................................WELL.........................

I FOUND A GUIDE STAR!¬!!!! WOOO HOOOO lol.....................

IMG_4958 by tingting44, on Flickr

......................BUT now it seems the GPUSB or PHD is not sending or the commands are not going through to my mount?....i think, this is the message i am getting

IMG_4957 by tingting44, on Flickr

so i went in to manual guiding and tried moving the mount in all directions and its not moving it? the GPUSB is flashing green and red but nothing, i listened very carefully to also make sure it was moving and nothing, just the normal sound of the RA going......any help on this hopefully final problem before i am able to guide lol

[glowingturnip]

hmm, you should definitely be able to hear a change in motor tone when you try driving the mount with that little dialogue box.

my laptop and PHD are fussy, there are two USB ports on the laptop, and if I put the mount usb into the wrong port, it won't recognise the scope, I have to swap them round and restart PHD.

Just a thought, have you installed the ASCOM drivers ?  Can't remember if they come with PHD or not.  I think from memory one of the ASCOM thingies lets you drive the scope around on its own, similar to that little dialogue in PHD, so maybe work on getting the scope to drive that way before getting PHD in the way too.  Furthermore, that's something you can do in the daytime  :-)

Also, I connect my synscan handset to the laptop via an RS232 to USB interface, and that needed a driver install too...

Interesting that it failed on the backlash clearing though, mine usually fails much earlier if it's going to fail, on the first RA calibration run.  Did it get through that ok and could you hear the motor tones changing when it was doing that ?  If so, would imply that the RA is working fine but your Dec driving is having problems.  You can always turn Dec guiding off if you've got great polar alignment, but obviously that's not satisfactory.

[tingting44]

hmm, you should definitely be able to hear a change in motor tone when you try driving the mount with that little dialogue box.

my laptop and PHD are fussy, there are two USB ports on the laptop, and if I put the mount usb into the wrong port, it won't recognise the scope, I have to swap them round and restart PHD.

Just a thought, have you installed the ASCOM drivers ?  Can't remember if they come with PHD or not.  I think from memory one of the ASCOM thingies lets you drive the scope around on its own, similar to that little dialogue in PHD, so maybe work on getting the scope to drive that way before getting PHD in the way too.  Furthermore, that's something you can do in the daytime  :-)

Also, I connect my synscan handset to the laptop via an RS232 to USB interface, and that needed a driver install too...

Interesting that it failed on the backlash clearing though, mine usually fails much earlier if it's going to fail, on the first RA calibration run.  Did it get through that ok and could you hear the motor tones changing when it was doing that ?  If so, would imply that the RA is working fine but your Dec driving is having problems.  You can always turn Dec guiding off if you've got great polar alignment, but obviously that's not satisfactory.

Morning mate

ill have to go through step by step with things then to see if it could be different usb ports/ASCOM drivers etc,etc.... i dont think ive installed any ASCOM drivers tho, simply installed PHD2 on my daughters notepad and that was it if memory recalls....

yes it fails on the backlash at about step 60 or 61, but no motor noise from the DEC at all? on the 1st RA calibration it went through fine in less then 5 steps i think, yes i dont want to guide with no DEC if i can help it

thanks for your help buddy, might have a go now and see if i can get the DEC working, going to have a search for the ASCOM drivers now mate

edit, will i be able to use ASCOM with my GPUSB?

edit, mhh this is a bit confusing, im on the ascom site now

http://ascom-standards.org/Downloads/ScopeDrivers.htm

but do i need the download for "telescope/mount drivers? if so would you know which one lol

[russp]

Feel your pain as it's taken me a good month and about 5 wasted nights to finally get guiding working (for the first time last night - yay!) this is what I found,

First key is focusing .. find your approx focus point in the daytime and remember it somehow (easy for me as I'm using a 80mm frac with a numbered scale on the focuser)

Next Exposure - tricky to get right and I suspect every cam is different. Generally you want it on default with auto exposure turned off and exposure brightness turned up 

Guiding with PHD - Darks are absolutely key... mine just won't do anything without darks taken (you can save the darks and reload them if you change exposure but you need a set for every exposure length) - PHD 2 is better for this for me as I can access cam setting directly which I can't in PHD 1 but again that may just be my cam. Slide the gamma slider at the bottom of PHD to the far right too.

Use the manual guide and looking through your main scope make sure it's moving - if it's not you need to sort the connection out - I'm using ascom and pulse guiding not GPUSB so I can't help you there

Increase the calibration step to 1500 to 2500 once phd is talking to your scope and get it to calibrate - if it's not moving after this either is not talking to your mount or you're guiding on a hot pixel - Don't try to calibrate near to polaris/zenith - doesn't seem to work well.. find something at 45deg away in both directions - a bright star and calibrate on that then move to your target and pick a star to guide on and it will already be calibrated.

[Mr TamiyaCowboy]

skywatcher stuff, like goto synscan and the cheaper syntrek all,

run the Nexstar 5i/8i driver interface. 

this is what i have read up on about driving my synscan goto via ascom drivers.

(dont take my word on this tingting, but i think you find nexstar is the protocol the sw mounts use)

[tingting44]

who would have thought guiding would have been so much of a headache/stressful and darn right non enjoyable thus far............but im not going to let it beat me, i WILL do it! the backlash error was really annoying me last night tho and i felt to backlash the scope over the garden wall,,,,,,,deep breath's!!!

RIGHT! ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!..................

skywatcher stuff, like goto synscan and the cheaper syntrek all,

run the Nexstar 5i/8i driver interface. 

this is what i have read up on about driving my synscan goto via ascom drivers.

(dont take my word on this tingting, but i think you find nexstar is the protocol the sw mounts use)

Thanks tam but i dont use any skywatcher gear buddy...i think...lol, im using the dual motor mounts, with GPUSB, i just downloaded the EQMOD driver which seems to give me a platform for moving the telescope, so i will see if i get any luck with this?

Feel your pain as it's taken me a good month and about 5 wasted nights to finally get guiding working (for the first time last night - yay!) this is what I found,

First key is focusing .. find your approx focus point in the daytime and remember it somehow (easy for me as I'm using a 80mm frac with a numbered scale on the focuser)

Next Exposure - tricky to get right and I suspect every cam is different. Generally you want it on default with auto exposure turned off and exposure brightness turned up 

Guiding with PHD - Darks are absolutely key... mine just won't do anything without darks taken (you can save the darks and reload them if you change exposure but you need a set for every exposure length) - PHD 2 is better for this for me as I can access cam setting directly which I can't in PHD 1 but again that may just be my cam. Slide the gamma slider at the bottom of PHD to the far right too.

Use the manual guide and looking through your main scope make sure it's moving - if it's not you need to sort the connection out - I'm using ascom and pulse guiding not GPUSB so I can't help you there

Increase the calibration step to 1500 to 2500 once phd is talking to your scope and get it to calibrate - if it's not moving after this either is not talking to your mount or you're guiding on a hot pixel - Don't try to calibrate near to polaris/zenith - doesn't seem to work well.. find something at 45deg away in both directions - a bright star and calibrate on that then move to your target and pick a star to guide on and it will already be calibrated.

awww that sucks mate!!! but GRATS on your 1st guiding last night!!! did you manage to get any subs?

ive now got focusing sorted out

also got exposure sorted out for now! well i can see the star so thats good enough for NOW.....lol

i did have a mess about with the calibration steps last night, i tried to turn the RA and DEC up to both 5000 but they both went to 2000 so im guessing that s the highest i can go, but i was still getting the backlash error

the star i was trying to calibrate on last night was Mizar or Alioth in the big dipper/ursa Major

[glowingturnip]

yes it fails on the backlash at about step 60 or 61, but no motor noise from the DEC at all? on the 1st RA calibration it went through fine in less then 5 steps i think, yes i dont want to guide with no DEC if i can help it

edit, will i be able to use ASCOM with my GPUSB?

edit, mhh this is a bit confusing, im on the ascom site now

http://ascom-standards.org/Downloads/ScopeDrivers.htm

but do i need the download for "telescope/mount drivers? if so would you know which one lol

hmm, 5 RA steps  sounds too short, mine takes about 50 in each direction.  You should see the guidestar move away from the crosshairs and then back again as it calibrates.

GPUSB - no idea sorry    I think I'm using Ascom pulse guiding too, possibly... 

Ascom -  i think you just go for the platform 6.1 download on the home page

[tingting44]

hmm, 5 RA steps  sounds too short, mine takes about 50 in each direction.  You should see the guidestar move away from the crosshairs and then back again as it calibrates.

GPUSB - no idea sorry    I think I'm using Ascom pulse guiding too, possibly... 

Ascom -  i think you just go for the platform 6.1 download on the home page

mhh i dont know then, is too short of a time not good then yes the star did move when doing the RA (i did have the calibration step to 2000 on RA tho

dam! lol any GPUSB user's here? lol

i got ascom downloaded now with the EQMOD....

tbh its all overwhelming me a bit, might just go back to imaging via polar alignment for a few weeks, maybe a month then have another go at guiding as its not very enjoyable at the moment lol

edit, i just found an ASCOM driver for the GPUSB, this would be what i want right?

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/932972/Main/932928

[glowingturnip]

yes the star did move when doing the RA (i did have the calibration step to 2000 on RA tho

that's a very good thing then !  means computer is talking to scope and PHD is trying to do its thing, try a lower calibration step next time, a large step is quicker but a rougher calibn.  You'll just need to figure out what's going on with that Dec alignment.

Try doing a guiding session with RA only - if that works, you're halfway there, and guiding, even in RA only, is still going to be much better than unguided.

[tingting44]

right not got work today so i thought id try and solve my guiding problems, 1st thing that i have done is to download and instal GPUSB checker, this is where the problem is i think! 

i am able to change the LED from green to red and vice versa ok, i can turn the LED on and off ok, when i click on the RA+ i have movement but when i click on RA- i have no movement, with the DEC i have no movement at all in the DEC+ and DEC-

any clues what this means and how i can get it working please?

edit, i forgot to add i have control and movement fine from the EQ5 motor handset just not from the GPUSB?

[glowingturnip]

i know nothing about gpusb i'm afraid

[tingting44]

what a headache lol i double checked the wires were soldered on ok and in right position and i wired the green one on to the wrong solder point!! DOH! i thought i might have messed up something by doing that, so i took it off and re soldered it on to where it is suppose to be, plugged all back in and still no movement on the GPUSB checker, so i thought mhhh why does this white box on the ST4 conversion kit have to be on there? as its just kind of acting like an extension so i totally removed the white box pictured here

and simply plugged the wire by itself coming from my EQ5 motor mount into the GPUSB and the 1st thing i recocnised was the GPUSB lit up green instead of red, tried it on the GPUSB checker and im getting movement in both directions of RA and DEC now!!! so ALL IS LOOKING GOOD lol 

 

not sure what use that white box with the numbers 1-6 on it has? but everything seems to be working fine for me with it not connected to the setup?

 

gosh lets hope so eh