Basic HEQ5 not worth it?

[malc-c]

Btw CE approval only has to be done on one item, sent for test. Not every produced item

I know that, but at around £5K - £7K per directive that cost has to be recovered and adds a percentage to each item sold

[sandyshaw]

I know that, but at around £5K - £7K per directive that cost has to be recovered and adds a percentage to each item sold

I always thought it was illegal to sell electronics in the EU that are not CE stamped, maybe there is a loophole for kits I dono but to pay a hundred odd for a kit that I have read about overheating motors, I don't think so

I thought iOpteron had a drop in replacement for SynScan on SW. Maybe they stopped that since they do their own competing mounts now.

[sandyshaw]

https://www.ioptron.com/index.cfm?select=productdetails&phid=86e314ac-3303-4aa3-8de1-a829228e98b6

Here it is, will this fit a Skywatcher EQ5?

[malc-c]

https://www.ioptron.com/index.cfm?select=productdetails&phid=86e314ac-3303-4aa3-8de1-a829228e98b6

Here it is, will this fit a Skywatcher EQ5?

If you read the test on that page it does indeed say it will

Regarding the CE marking, it's a grey area.  Only a commercial business needs to comply with the directive and doesn't apply to a private person, but the definition of a company or sole trader, and what constitutes a commercial business is open to interpretation.  I've been through this process, and the definition I was given by trading standards was that if you make a profit on something and it's not a one off then it can be deemed that it's a classed as a commercial operation.  In the case of the product I linked to, this being advertised on a website with the "pay now" buttons clearly gives the impression of a company trading under that brand name.  Therefore they risk being fined or worse a jail sentence for breach of the CE directive in the EU.

This directive has killed off a lot of the table top engineering entrepreneurs making small items where there is a gap in the commercial markets

[Lonestar70]

Hi sandyshaw,

Yes the ioptron unit will fit the EQ5 but cannot be used with the HEQ5.(different gear ratios)

This unit also has DC servo motors, not stepper motors, which will not have such a high resolution.

The full SW upgrade for the EQ5 uses stepper motors and gives a resolution of 0.288 arc seconds.

The full HEQ5 upgrade also uses stepper motors and will give 0.144 arc seconds resolution.

The ioptron unit is $429... at todays exchange rate that will be £259.87... + import duty... + postage... + VAT.

I suspect that this would translate to the dollar price becoming £ sterling... + postage... +VAT. ( seems to be the case with most USA stuff these days).  

The EQ5 upgrade is available from FLO at £300.0 inclusive of VAT.

The HEQ5 upgrade is available from FLO at £325.0 inclusive of VAT... in both cases delivery charges are minimal.

My choice would be an HEQ5 standard mount and a full upgrade kit... better still, just buy the HEQ5 pro... it's cheaper.

As for the CE marking...  the EU directive for such items is the 'Low Voltage electrical Devices' directive (LVD) which only includes devices between 75v - 1500v DC or 50v -1000v AC.

A 12v DC kit device (such as that being discussed) is therefore outside this directives range and so does necessarily need to have CE marking for sale in Europe... unless it is caught up by one of the other directives (RFI for example).

Hope this helps your choice.

Best regards.

Sandy.

[ianpwilliams]

http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/TOC_AP.HTM

Great guide, thanks.

So if I wanted to avoid GOTO and laptops, it seems that I could buy, say, a 150PDS on an HEQ5 none-GOTO Syntrek mount, a second scope to use as a guide scope, and a DSLR, and then the motors could track the object, and I could manually use the handset to keep the object centred during the shots?

And if that is the case, then what would I need to buy as a guide scope?

[ianpwilliams]

And could I use a guiding eyepiece instead, at least to begin with? A guidescope looks like another very expensive addition.

[Scott]

just curious Ian, Why do you want to avoid goto? I can understand this when doing visual work where the hunt is part of the pleasure but for AP getting on that yarget as soon as possible is pretty much essential in the uk where imaging time can be measured in minutes rather than hours..

Scott

Edit :-  also, in a previous post you metioned not wanting to buy the book unless ap was possible/viable...I would say to you that spending £20 is a far better option than buying something for many hundreds without reading it. are there any clubs nearby that you could visit?

It really can be a minefield but M.E.P.C (the book) can really help you understand and it is actually a good read anyway. 

[ianpwilliams]

I was originally not interested in GOTO because I thought it was only really for finding objects for visual, and I think the hunt is part of the pleasure like you say. Then I was keen on it again when someone said it's useful for photography. But now I'm put off again, because it turns out you need access to the mains, or a generator, and when I'm in the back yard I have no access to any mains inside the house, and a generator would be way more work than I would want. I live in a second-floor flat, so it will take commitment just to get the scope and mount up and down stairs for each session. That's why I also want to avoid a laptop, because it's all just more stuff to carry up and down stairs.

As it happens, I actually quite like the idea of using a sturdy mount with decent motors (like the HEQ5 Syntrek), and then using a guiding eyepiece and a handset, and manually targeting the object while the camera is working away. I imagine I would be prouder of the image if I knew I'd had to put extra work into getting it.

When it comes to MEPC, I'm sure it's great, but because I still don't seem to know enough, I could end up buying the book only to discover that it photography isn't going to be an option for me. I'm still convinced that's not the case though. Some of the photos I've seen here of what people have achieved (with just a 130P on an EQ3-2 for eaxmple), have been amazing. So I'm sure I could do good things with a 150PDS on an HEQ5 Syntrek, manually-guided.

I did check my local library for MEPC, just to try and get a flavour of what it's all about, but they don't stock it. I did get a copy of Turn Left at Orion, but apart from the first couple of chapters, that really is a book which you are meant to use outside with your scope, so I'll be buying that one anyway no doubt.

[Scott]

No, you don't need access to mains or a genny. A goto system has the same power damands as scope using motors only. either one will require a 12v (or possibly 6v for motors) D.C. supply.

If you read through this link you will see that the heq5 requires an 11-15v dc supply 2 amp. there is also a link on this page for a "buyers guide" although it's fairly brief.

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/skywatcher-heq5-syntrek.html

[Scott]

also, with any motors, certainly the heq5 syntrek, you will be able to image without manual tracking. you can get pretty good subs (60-120 sec) on an unguided mount providing it's well balanced and precisly polar aligned. Manual guiding I think would be similar to having teeth pulled as far as fun goes .

I know I keep banging on about the book and to be honest, it doesn't even have to be mepc but I seriously think you need to find out how different mounts work and what their requirements are.

I don't say this to be nasty in any way, it's just that it could save you a lot of money or frustration with buying the wrong mount....or both

this is the type of power supply many people go for although prices vary greatly. 

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/portable-power-jump-starter-5-in-1-300a-260-psi-compressor-a67hy

[ianpwilliams]

Year that's the non-PRO one that I was considering. But if the GOTO can be run with a 12v battery, then I could consider the Pro:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/skywatcher-heq5-pro-synscan.html

[ianpwilliams]

Yeah maybe you're right. I should find some good books in the library. I am keen on Skywatcher mounts and scopes though. And I'm sure I would prefer an EQ mount unless I absolutely knew I would only ever do visual.

[RichM63]

@Ian with the best wlll in the world, it is time to stop theorizing and sign a cheque for one of the example packages that you postulate.

Simply giving "what if" is never going to hack it!

£200 will provide you with an acceptable visual experience s/h .

Rich  (end of)

[ianpwilliams]

I was hoping to something to buy something with imaging in mind in the future, so if I just went and bought say a 200P on an EQ5, then I'd only end up replacing both of them for PDS and HEQ, and losing hundreds of pounds in the process.

And the reason for the imaging is because I will be doing the visual on my own (no car to drive to events etc), so the imaging would have been a nice way of sharing what I found. But I'd probably still do it if I just did visual. Maybe I'll just get a Dob then.

I doubt I'll buy anything for a while anyway, what with uncertainty over work contracts, days getting longer and nights getting shorter, and the fact that it's all so complicated.

[ianpwilliams]

Ok I've decided I'm going to buy the 200P with the EQ5 mount, because they come together so it's cheaper than mixing and matching, and because I'm sure I would regret going for 150 instead of 200, and because I'm inclined to believe what Quatermass says in these links (particularly having seen his photos):

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/210146-qm-departs-from-his-beloved-eq5/?p=2250278

http://astrocasto.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/heq5-versus-eq5-for-astrophotography.html

[Scott]

Ok I've decided I'm going to buy the 200P with the EQ5 mount, because they come together so it's cheaper than mixing and matching, and because I'm sure I would regret going for 150 instead of 200, and because I'm inclined to believe what Quatermass says in these links (particularly having seen his photos):

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/210146-qm-departs-from-his-beloved-eq5/?p=2250278

http://astrocasto.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/heq5-versus-eq5-for-astrophotography.html

It's a great place to start , I think loads of people (including me) started with this for visual with ap in mind. It also has the option of adding motors etc for imaging/guiding at a later date and as you rightly say, quatermass has lead the way in imaging with this set-up and has excellent results to show what can be done. 

Above all, be sure to make it fun and don't get hung up on getting on "results at all costs".....unless of course, this is your idea of fun

[malc-c]

Ok I've decided I'm going to buy the 200P with the EQ5 mount, because they come together so it's cheaper than mixing and matching, and because I'm sure I would regret going for 150 instead of 200, and because I'm inclined to believe what Quatermass says in these links (particularly having seen his photos):

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/210146-qm-departs-from-his-beloved-eq5/?p=2250278

http://astrocasto.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/heq5-versus-eq5-for-astrophotography.html

To be honest, in my opinion you'll regret that choice if you want to do imaging.  It's the way I started and soon ended up selling the EQ5 mount as it simply wasn't stable enough, nor offered the precision to make life easy. Even buying the HEQ5 synscan second hand I lost money compared to purchasing the 200P on and HEQ5 new.

Also, if I recall QM went along the lines of buying a dual axis motor kit for his EQ5, modifying the handset to use a GPUSB cable and EQMOD, and whilst he did get some nice results (I believe he has a dark site which helps) it was quite an up hill struggle. 

If it was me, I would save up a little more and invest in the 200P HEQ5 synscan.  If you do go down the EQMOD / PC route later and don't need the handset then you can always recover some of the cost by selling it on.

[ianpwilliams]

It seems that the only 200P HEQ5 option is the 200P HEQ5 PRO at £969, which is quite a price jump:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200p-heq5-pro.html

And if I was going to commit that much money then I would go a step further and get the 200PDS for £1079 instead:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200pds-heq5-pro.html

But I wonder if I could go for the 200P EQ5, and then pick up a second hand HEQ5 when one becomes available, which will be a while based on what I've seen so far.

[sandyshaw]

People say that EQ5's are not really good, well, how true is statement if one fits a SynScan upgrade to it? (or the Pro version).

If the OTA fits it within weight tolerances, isn't that good enough for imaging?  I assume it will get even better if it is guided.  It cannot be THAT bad surely.

It is nice to sit and point to people oh buy this buy that higher model, but frankly if it is outside their budget, people cannot do that and have to do with what they can get.

[Scott]

People say that EQ5's are not really good, well, how true is statement if one fits a SynScan upgrade to it? (or the Pro version).

If the OTA fits it within weight tolerances, isn't that good enough for imaging?  I assume it will get even better if it is guided.  It cannot be THAT bad surely.

It is nice to sit and point to people oh buy this buy that higher model, but frankly if it is outside their budget, people cannot do that and have to do with what they can get.

I imagine the reason people are recommending the heq5 over the eq5 is that in the opening post he said I'm concidering buying a heq5.

As I said, the eq5 is where a lot of us start. it's most definately doable and good results are acheivable (with hard work). I have since moved on to an neq6. Did I enjoy imaging with my eq5? most definately. Would I go back to it after using the neq6? most definately not, but there's no way i'd spend £1000+ as an entry level into a hobby I wasn't even sure I'd enjoy.

[malc-c]

The EQ5 / 200P combo is fine in it's own right, but when you start bolting on dslr camera, then try guiding with it, the mount just isn't up to the job, which is why everyone says that it's fine for visual but not for imaging. Now a 150Pds on an EQ5 would be a lot more stable, same as a 200P on an HEQ5.

I agree everyone had a budget, and at the time a 200P on an HEQ5 goto was out of my budget, but having then realised that it (IMO) wasn't suitable for my imaging needs spent additional money upgrading to an HEQ5 synscan and loosing money on the second hand value of the EQ5 which was only a year old.

Hey this is just a public forum where people air their views and experience.  It's down to the individual if they take any of those views or advice on board, or go their own way. 

[ianpwilliams]

Yeah £1k is an expensive way to start a new hobby. There was a second hand HEQ5 Pro for £450 which I just missed out on, but that would be a viable alternative with a new OTA if another one came up.

[malc-c]

Ian,

At the end of the day it's your money and down to you how you spend it.  You are right, shelling out a grand on an HEQ5 and 200PDS when you're not sure how bitten by the hobby could be a waste of cash if you find it seldom gets used.  Buying second hand is one way, but like anything second hand you take a risk of getting something that might have issues, and has no warranty.

Which ever route you go down, at least motorise the RA drive.  Even visually, having the scope track an object so it's always in the field of view makes the session pleasurable.

[Scott]

Ian,

At the end of the day it's your money and down to you how you spend it.  You are right, shelling out a grand on an HEQ5 and 200PDS when you're not sure how bitten by the hobby could be a waste of cash if you find it seldom gets used.  Buying second hand is one way, but like anything second hand you take a risk of getting something that might have issues, and has no warranty.

Which ever route you go down, at least motorise the RA drive.  Even visually, having the scope track an object so it's always in the field of view makes the session pleasurable.

wise words Malcolm