Mars & Saturn

[weetooner]

Woke up this morning about 6.00'sh for the purpose for having a look at Mars & Saturn, was rather disappointed in what I could see. I know the moon is quite prominent and as such the sky is quite bright but having a look at Mars it was rather disappointing compared to the likes of Jupiter. I could make out a planet(I think) but there was no features what so ever and Saturn was even worse, maybe it was because of light pollution or just that my scope is not good enough, anyways I will try again tomorrow. One good thing was that, last night,  I could make out the great nebulae in orion, not as clear as the photos (where do those colours come from?) that are on here, but I could see a haze which I take is the nebulae.

[ronin]

What scope is it? Cannot say if the scope is good enough or not.

For Mars you are looking at something that will produce a good image at 200x as a minimum magnification for viewing Mars. From previous years you really need even more. Remember if looking at peoples images that these are processed, and only the best frames are used to produce them. Your eye cannot removed the poor ones and stack the remainder.

Mars varies in size from 3" to 25", Jupiter varies from 30" to 50". So Jupiter is always bigger then Mars. If Mars were at its closest and Jupiter at it's furthest, Jupiter is always bigger.

At this time I guess Mars is still low down and is not at the closest it will get to I would say that you will not get a good view of Mars.

[John]

Mars is really tiny at the moment. As ronin says, you need a great deal of magnification to see it as any more than a tiny pinkish disk. Saturn usually looks nice even in a small scope but it is a smaller world than Jupiter and further away from us. Surface features on Saturn's disk are much, much more subtle that on Jupiter but the ring system makes up for this of course and that should be visible in practically any scope. When it's at it's closest approach next year Mars disk will appear nearly 3x as large as it does now. Still small compared with Jupiter though.

Knowing the scope you were using and the magnification would help to understand what you saw.

If the planets were near the horizon that won't help their definition either. 

[Ben Smith]

I thought the same after looking at mars the other morning through my 200p dob. After abit of research I found it is tiny at the min due to its distance from earth. It makes it's closest point on 8th April and looks miles bigger with more detail.

I'm guessing it's the same deal with saturn with 10th May being its closest point (opposition)

[John]

Jupiter and Saturn don't vary much in angular size. At it's max in May 2014 Saturns angular size will be 18.7 arc seconds, so a little larger than Mars will get. You have the rings on top of that of course.

I've observed Mars over quite a few years now and I have to say that it's a tougher challenge than either Saturn or Jupiter and tends to need good seeing conditions and high magnifications to pick out it's surface features.

Newcomers to the hobby can get a little frustrated by the views of the red planet !

[Astro Imp]

I thought the same after looking at mars the other morning through my 200p dob. After abit of research I found it is tiny at the min due to its distance from earth. It makes it's closest point on 8th April and looks miles bigger with more detail.

That's a great graphic, thanks.

[weetooner]

If I need a great deal of magnification to see Mars then that rules out the scope I have just now (sky-watcher mercury 705).

Would I be able to see the rings on Saturn with this scope? I realise that Saturn is pretty low in the sky just now and when I can see it the Sun is not far behind so this would probably account for me not getting a good image.

Many thanks for the replies.

P.S. I hope to get a bigger scope next year as I am starting to get the bug. lol.

[Kirscovitch]

I'm guessing that the rings might be a bit pushing it for that scope?

Somewhere here on SGL there is a link that gives a guideline for determining a scopes practical magnification limit. If I remember right it is somewhere between 50 and 60 times the aperture in inches.

So your 70mm is 2.75 inches. 

2.75x50 is  137.5x

2.75x60 is 165x

What focal length EP are you using?

[weetooner]

The eyepieces I have are 25mm, 10mm, 6.5mm and a x2 barlow. I think that with a focal length of 500mm the 25mm will give 20x, the 10mm will give me 50x and the 6.5 will give me 77x if I add the barlow it doubles the magnification, to be honest when I add the barlow the images are not very good.

This is what was advertised on the site where I bought the scope:-

What can you see with the Mercury 705?

At medium power the Moon becomes a fabulously intricate landscape of craters, rays and rills. At higher power individual crater systems can be explored. The planet Mars will show numerous details on its surface and the polar cap can be seen during ideal observing conditions.

At good observing times, when observed at just 50x magnification using the included 10mm eyepiece, the planet Jupiter will appear as a banded disc larger in size than you normally see the full Moon with the unaided eye! In ideal viewing conditions, detail can be seen in the violent atmosphere of this greatest of the gas giants that can be observed in motion on the planet's disk in just a few minutes. The four main moons of Jupiter will be seen orbiting the giant planet, sometimes casting shadows onto Jupiter's dense cloudy atmosphere - they too can be see to clearly move and change position in just 20 minutes of observing. And don't forget these are all things that you cannot possibly see with the un-aided eye (unless you actually go there that is!).

The planet Saturn will show its magnificent ring system and its bright famous moon Titan. These are just a few of the things that can be seen in our own solar system with the Mercury telescope.

An ideal introduction to the lifelong hobby of astronomy!

I suppose the key words in the ad are "In ideal viewing conditions".

[Kirscovitch]

If the barlow isn't the best it could give you poor views. Using it with the 6.5 would crank you up to 144x. I think that is pushing it a bit already with your scope. I get good views of Jupiter around 150x and with good seeing conditions I get good views around 200x but anything over that I start to lose some quality.

[weetooner]

Yes, the barlow was a cheap one, so probably won't be very good. I bought the 6.5mm so I could do away with the barlow as I was informed that 80x would probably be the best I could get with the 705. Don't want to be spending too much on this scope as I am hoping to upgrade next year looking to get a 150 or 200 dob.

[Kirscovitch]

The nice thing is that whatever you have and whatever you get will most likely be usable on your next scope! 

[cantab]

I thought the same after looking at mars the other morning through my 200p dob. After abit of research I found it is tiny at the min due to its distance from earth. It makes it's closest point on 8th April and looks miles bigger with more detail.

I'm guessing it's the same deal with saturn with 10th May being its closest point (opposition)

Wow, great graphic. I knew that Mars varies a lot in angular size, but this really underlines it.

For Saturn at the moment, I think the problem is that at 6 am it's only about 10 or 15 degrees above the horizon. That means you're looking through a lot of atmosphere, which will impair the view.

[John]

You can see Mars and the rings of Saturn though a 60mm or even a 50mm scope. It's just that they will appear small and detail on them will be hard to spot. There will be no doubt that what you are viewing is not a star though.  

[Qualia]

This is what was advertised on the site where I bought the scope:-

What can you see with the Mercury 705?

At medium power the Moon becomes a fabulously intricate landscape of craters, rays and rills. At higher power individual crater systems can be explored. The planet Mars will show numerous details on its surface and the polar cap can be seen during ideal observing conditions.

At good observing times, when observed at just 50x magnification using the included 10mm eyepiece, the planet Jupiter will appear as a banded disc larger in size than you normally see the full Moon with the unaided eye! In ideal viewing conditions, detail can be seen in the violent atmosphere of this greatest of the gas giants that can be observed in motion on the planet's disk in just a few minutes. The four main moons of Jupiter will be seen orbiting the giant planet, sometimes casting shadows onto Jupiter's dense cloudy atmosphere - they too can be see to clearly move and change position in just 20 minutes of observing. And don't forget these are all things that you cannot possibly see with the un-aided eye (unless you actually go there that is!).

The planet Saturn will show its magnificent ring system and its bright famous moon Titan. These are just a few of the things that can be seen in our own solar system with the Mercury telescope.

An ideal introduction to the lifelong hobby of astronomy!

I suppose the key words in the ad are "In ideal viewing conditions".

It's this kind of misleading tripe that really gets on my nerves. I tried to write a post to counter such objectionable commercial propaganda. It's not a perfect post, it needs tidying up but you'll get an idea of what may be possible and what you should expect from a 4" telescope.

Just to leave you with a little 'peace of mind':

You will not see Jupiter "larger in size than you normally see the full Moon with the unaided eye!"

You will not really see Jupiter's belts "in motion" but more, very subtle shifts within the very subtle Jovian features.

Putting this into some perspective, we have a little bit of glass or mirror reaching out hundreds of millions of miles. Saturn is further out that Jupiter and Mars is some three times smaller. So my advice is to stick with Jupiter for a while and practice a little.

My 4" frac can easily make out the north and south equatorial belts, great red spot, the equatorial band and the north and south polar regions. If you stick with him, gradually, after 15 minutes or so, Jupiter reveals even more subtler markings especially in the north and south temperate belts and larger markings in the north and south tropical zones. You'll be able to trace the movement of the Jovian moons and observe their play of shadows over Jupiter in times of transit or of their eclipses by Jupiter's own shadow. The entire image in the eyepiece is really no bigger than a large pea in the palm of your hand.

Also, don't forget the Moon which will also surrender to you a wealth of information.

[knobby]

Just to add that the 700 x 60 frac that I started with (which was truly pants) could make out the rings of Saturn, not brilliant but clearly recognisable... Don't give up :-)

[cantab]

You will not see Jupiter "larger in size than you normally see the full Moon with the unaided eye!"

When Jupiter's near opposition, you will. Magnified Jupiter 50x50" > naked-eye Moon 34'. On the other hand, this is arguably more testament to how small the Moon's apparent size actually is than how large Jupiter will look.