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10Micron GM1000HPS - ingress to a full review!

perfrej

By perfrej
in Discussions - Mounts

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ribuck

ribuck

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I really can't understand manufacturers upping the prices, especially now when there is a Europe wide recession on, it make not sense at all to charge more when your customers have less money in their pockets. Fair enough if they need to up costs to cover increased manufacturing costs.........But 400 Euro's......doesn't really seem fair, just seems a little greedy.

Anyone know how much Mesu has put their mounts up over the last 6 months ?

It will be interesting to see how mount manufacturers react when the EQ8 is launched, as i expect they will steal a lot of potential customers away from other manufacturers due to it's decent payload and expected reasonable price. I bet if the other manufacturers start loosing a lot of sales, then they will sharp drop their prices back down.

I think the EQ8 will promote some very healthy competition in the mid-capacity market.

Rich.

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perfrej

perfrej

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The mid segment is a very difficult segment. When it comes to payload it is easy to compare, but other claims to fame can be somewhat sketchy. Like the encoders of the EQ8... It may prove to be a decent mount, but given the fact that they had obvious problems with the bearings and pushed the launch date because of that makes me wonder how good the Synta bearings are. When I took my almost unused NEQ6 apart for a bearing change, the existing bearings were corroded and I had to polish a lot of the gut parts of the mount to get rid of it. And the thing hadn't even been out in the rain at all!

In some parts of a mount there simply are no shortcuts to be had, simple as that. Bearings, precision, tolerances...

On a side note, I am currently working on time synchronizing my mounts properly. You all know what a second off in the clock means; 15 arcseconds off in the sky. A GPS unit connected to a mount will deliver a position and time solution once per second, with a straight communications delay of about 170ms, and most mount commands for setting time only involves full seconds only, not fractions thereof. So, I had to write some clever software to sync the mount clock better than a direct connected GPS can.

First I sync my PC clock with a third party NTP client to around 1ms. On fast computers that is not a problem. I have then devised an algorithm for getting the time to the mount accurately and implemented it in my 10Micron utility as well as directly in the ASCOM driver.

So far the results are promising. When looking at this, please bear in mind that the user interface of niether clock is accurate in itself:

http://filer.frejvall.se/clock.html

Anyway, the fish soup is slowly boiling, the [removed word] is poured - I'd better take care of my loved ones (not the mounts) ;)

All the best,

Per

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ribuck

ribuck

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Per i'm not suggesting that the EQ8 can be compared to the GM1000. I just hope that it will promote some healthy competition in the market. Guess i'm just a little worried that if the prices keep jumping up, i wont be able to afford the mesu or the 10 micron and the EQ8 will then become the only viable option.

I discussed this with another forum member a few hours ago, and they have the similar fears, so potentially from this thread alone, you have 2 people that could be forced down the EQ8 road.

If i was a mount manufacturer i would rather make a little less profit, than to loose customers to competition and miss the sales and make no profit.

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perfrej

perfrej

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Oh! I didn't suggest that you were. To quote the good old American comedians Cheech and Chong; "Leesten Doctor, don't misundertake me". All I'm saying is that the middle segment is difficult to judge. Period ;)

Personally I think that the NEQ8 is going to draw a lot of customers going upwards from the NEQ6, and that most of them are going to be slightly disappointed as the mount, most likely and in my very personal opinion, will not perform on par with other offerings in the middle segment.

There is also the upper segment. Up there the good old top dogs are fighting for their life and defending themselves vigorously from the attack from ASA and 10Micron. I wrote it before; both AP and Bisque need to redesign their current offerings in order to get absolute encoder technology in place as the bolt on route is simply not going to work.

Man, am I sticking my neck out here!

Nonetheless, the skies remain gray and the first opportunity for astro work is just visible at the end of the ten-day forecast - for the first time in about a month!

Looking forward towards that. I'll put the Tak 106 and the QSI 683 on the GM1000HPS for first light.

/per

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famax

famax

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I think that the increased price of the gm1000 is a sign off success, here in france, two guys are switching from Ap to 10µ after testing the gm1000.

I do not beleive that 10µ and skywatcher share the same market. I beleive The 10µ target is a small niche with small units in the field.

Considering price : it is always a balance between competition and customer price acceptance. If the orders are somekind "huge", the price rise is economically viable.

my two cents

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ollypenrice

ollypenrice

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Like Per I think that Skywatcher are entering terra incognita for them. They may spend too long reading the forums on which, with large mounts, you keep reading about payload weight. This is so much guff. The premium mount market is about accuracy. It's also about getting it right and providing real information. (Take high end scopes. We want an image circle diameter, spot sizes and so on. If you don't provide them you are not a player.)

I'm going to defend Lucas Mesu. I think he's more engineer than businessman (fine by me) and, quite honestly, I think he went in with too low a price. His original distributor, now thankfully dismissed, was trying to make more than he was on each mount, or so I believe. No love lost between me and that person, though, so don't trust me.

Olly

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jackrussell0232

jackrussell0232

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Can I join the 'off topic club' here too, padding out the thread until the latest 10 micron GM1000 gets its first light review.

I'm a little surprised that some people seem to expect so little of the EQ8. It appears to have been delayed because synta aren't happy to put a substandard product out there before ironing out the creases (unlike ASA for example at many times the cost)? Is that not a good thing?

Did the EQ5 or 6 disappoint? No, they have become the smartest money many of us ever spent on a mount? What was the weak point of both these mounts? Extra transfer/stepper gears - which have been removed from the equation on the Eq8. (and they also copied our EQ5 and 6 DIY belt drive mods in producing the az eq6GT). With significantly bigger diameter RA gears, better bearings and motors, do we really think the EQ8 will have a worse PE than a well tuned EQ6, or a bottom end G11? Would no-one want a belt modded eq6 with a 30-40kg payload and better worm/ring gearing? If I see one tested and showing a smooth PE around +6 to -6 arc secs (without PEC or autoG), with 20-30kg on it, I'll probably pull the trigger. If it costs around 2.5k GBP, what will be there to compete with it?

Don't get me wrong, if I was spending 5-6k on a mount, I'd also need to convince myself that a 2.5k Eq8 couldn't possibly get close. I'll put my hand up and admit that even with a pretty well tuned and belted eq6, I'm still considering Mesu 200 and GM1000, but the price rises will almost certainly make me wait, unless Bern or Ian K can come up with a sensible price for Mesu/10 micron respectively.

On the topic of the Mesu pricing, we all know that a product is worth whatever people will pay for it. The Mesu clearly performs as well as more expensive mounts, but for me, as good as the Mesu is, I can't help thinking that it should be cheaper. It has no worm or ring gears, which after all are the expensive-to-machine parts. Gear cutting, lapping etc and rejection of substandard parts all costs money. A friction drive should be much cheaper to manufacture. Yes, of course you're paying for the idea, development and the small scale production (as well as Lucas' reputedly excellent support), but £4500?...

Call me a cynic, but I think some of the mount makers are cashing in while they can. If the EQ8 cuts the mustard, and comes in at between half the price of a Mesu and GM1000, what will people buy?

Of course, you'll get a better picture if the mount can keep the image on the same pixels, rather than drifting and being corrected by autoguiding, but how many people can really benefit from a mount which has sub arcsec tracking, unless you're up in the mountains with sub arcsecond seeing?

Just my two-penneth, and I am a real smalley in this company.

Jack

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Jessun

Jessun

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I agree totally Jack on the SW. I regret selling my HEQ5 and I think Synta have the fundings to do their homework - learning rapidly from the recent Meade disaster - before they launch the 8.

I don't know an aweful lot about the Mesu, but it's relatively new on the scene, and would have to cover the development costs at some stage. At first glance it's a bit of a risk venture developing a name and a mount, but it certainly seems to have hit the nail for many imagers, and it has gotten to this stage with nigh on zero marketing. With some tweaks a 'Mesu light" would probably be my first choice for a field mount. I don't mind guiding - so long as it works :smiley: . I'm fairly firmly routed in the AP camp as of recent, but don't mind a bit giving a nod of admiration to a great concept. The Mesu is worth the money I think.

Per, regarding the retrofitted encoders on the AP I feel that rather than sticking your neck out with a solid case, you are perhaps guessing.

AP as far as I know has made no major product recalls in their history, nor made claims they didn't live up to. In fact in terms of the encoders they go to great length arguing the case against them! Meaning - in my view - that they aren't flogging snake oil.

But, I'm guessing too. I have no great insight in the making of mounts, but looking at the 1600 (and 3600 with optional factory fitted encoders), I don't immediately see a need to rebuild it to greater accuracy to take encoders. I would imagine they've had the odd chat with Renishaw, agreeing on the idea to facilitate a retrofit of a couple of 67mill tick Resolute encoders. I suppose it would hinge on how you do it. You say that they have to be fitted with micron accuracy, but why really? If they rotate with the axis, at the rate of this axis, and don't mis centre too badly they should do the trick. A tick of your choice would then be set as home, and stored in a keypad, laptop, or maybe the control box itself. Who could align their mount on a pier to micron accuracy anyway?

As much as I'd argue that most imagers don't need absolute encoders tomorrow, it's probably not far fetched to guess that they will be standard on all but the very basic mounts in the near future and at ever dropping prices. Just look at the little TDM and its good results. But it's also quite possible that many companies have had a 10micron in their reverse engineering department to get the hang of it. :tongue:

It's a delight to have a growing number of serious mounts to choose from, and I will read your upcoming GM1000HPS review with the greatest interest Per!

/Jesper

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Tim

Tim

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Excited Per? :)

I couldnt find asteroid 2012 DA14 in the list of asteroids on the 1000HPS controller, but I increased the RA and DEC tracking speeds to +99.999"/m and it helped keep the asteroid in the frame for longer, not bad for 1950mm fl.

I am still waiting on a focuser and a resolve on a collimator issue before I am able to set everything up as I would like it, but last night when I was trying to find and then track the asteroid, the 1000 did not miss a beat.

I hope to be able to track the ISS as it goes across, and take some pics, do you know how to do this Per?

If I can get a tripod built in time for SGL8 star party I think I will take my mount there. The ease of setting it up and polar aligning both at the SP and when it comes home makes it a more viable option that my old EQ6 from the obsy.

I got a cheap GPS from ebay and made myself a cable for it, and the GPS is working fine.

At some point I could do with a 'live' session with you to get the best out of unguided exposures, but I am probably going to guide for my narrowband images.

I do have a kind of first light, nothing special though and a work in progress, posted below.

The dealer I bought mine from, (I had a budget between 5-10K) recommended the 10Micron over AP, which he also holds, and in fact suggested it is probably the most accurate mount available for the money.

I can only tell you that it will put any target you like firmly in the centre of the camera, and keep it there :) I was having great fun last night finding tiny NGC's all around the path of the asteroid. Having such a capable instrument is likely to save me a lot of time finding, and then positioning targets in the camera fov. With my EQ6, as good as it was, it was always a bit fiddly to find the faint stuff, and usually several images to correctly place it. Knowing for sure that the fuzzy blob at the centre of the screen is the fuzzy blob I want will allow me to make best use of the limited clear sky time we get.

Cheers

Tim

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